Sibelius - different keys and time signatures

[bryla]

Just out of curiousity I would like to know how you can have the first violins in Bb-major and 6/8 and second violins in E-major and 2/4?

[SYS65]

I don't know if it can be done, but I would like to know how to, also use different keys,

I wrote something in C#m and the Bb instruments gets D#m , theorically is correct but I'd like to change it to Ebm

[benxiwf]

Id say your choices are either to use no key signatures and use accidentals (probably the best choice), change the transposition settings for one of the vln's accordingly, but playback will be incorrect, or maybe you can do the transposition thing and le muting the track and then create a separate staff playing the correct thing..

[bryla]

No, it needs to look like what I'm saying. Transposition won't help, since it would require the piece to look differently

[Tokkemon]

For this problem, you have to combine two workarounds, one of rhythm, one for pitch. Both will look right and playback properly. I'm going to use a simple example with pictures to help you out.

Rhythm:

Since you need to have dual time-signatures, one time-signature must predominate, in other words, you need to establish the system time-signature for all instruments so the rhythm for all will relate back to that time signature. 6/8 and 2/4 are relatively easy because 2/4's quarter note is equal to 6/8's dotted quarter. Both have two beats per measure, it is just the subdivision that is different. We will use tuplets in 6/8 to simulate 2/4. To do this:

1. Set a system time signature starting at the bar of the change. (Press T or Create>Time Signature) In this example, we'll use 6/8 as the predominant.
2. Write out the notes that are in the desired rhythm. In this example just straight 8th notes will do, but any valid rhythm in 6/8 will work.
3. Write out the notes that are in Violin II in 2/4. To do this, create a quarter note in beat one, then create a duplet (Ctrl+2 or Create>Tuplet...enter 2 in the box). Notice how the quarter is now equal to a dotted quarter in 6/8. Do this for every measure you intend to have in 2/4. Once you have the duplets written, you can go back and edit notes just like normal, just keep in mind you cannot break tuplets. (You shouldn't have to.) Don't worry if the duplet bracket looks funny with the new rhythm, it will be hidden next.
4. Select the entire part that you made duplets for the 2/4. Go to the Properties window (Ctrl+Alt+P or Window>Properties) and go to the Notes tab. Under Tuplet, change both options to "None" and "No Bracket" That should hide all the brackets. Violin II should now be in 2/4 in everything except name.
5. Now lets go back and change the time signatures. Select the original 6/8 time signature and hide it. (Ctrl+Shift+H or Edit>Hide or Show>Hide)
6. Right-click near the now-hidden time signature and create a new time signature for a single staff. (Right Click>Text>Other Staff Text>Time Signatures (one staff only)) Type exactly "6[enter]8" with no spaces. It should render a perfectly good 6/8 text object that you can now position into place. Repeat the process for a 2/4 signature.
7. Once you have the two text objects we can now position them in place. If you don't have it on already, show all the hidden objects (View>Hidden Objects). Your old 6/8 should show up in a ghost gray. I recommend zooming in a great deal so you can have finer control. Select your new 6/8 text object and position over top of the old 6/8 ghost. If you have magnetic layout on (Sibelius 6), it will make your life much easier by shifting it almost exactly in place automatically. Reseting the position of the text-object is also very helpful if magnetic layout is on. (Ctrl+Shift+P or Layout>Reset Position). It should work with a little patience. Repeat the process for the 2/4 and your done!

Pitch:

Luckily, dual key signatures is far easier than dual time signatures. Again, choose a predominant system key signature to start.

1. With your new rhythm, set a predominant key signature. (K or Create>Key Signature) In this case, we'll use B-flat major. Note that you may have to adjust your note spacing around the new time-signatures depending on how wide the key signature is.
2. Create a new key signature again but this time for only one staff. Press K (or Create>Key Signature) and select E major and check the box way at the bottom saying "One staff only." Click it into place on the Violin II part.
3. Adjust the notes as desired and you're done! Really simply. Sibelius will playback the parts as written so no worries about playback discrepancies.

Hope this helps you out! Let me know if you have any further questions. (I've attached the .sib example file for reference.)

two violins.sib

[Tokkemon]

I don't know if it can be done, but I would like to know how to, also use different keys,

I wrote something in C#m and the Bb instruments gets D#m , theorically is correct but I'd like to change it to Ebm

Sibelius *should* change this automatically but it depends on the instrument. (Sibelius will actually differentiate between a Clarinet in Bb and Clarinet in A# (!) so don't be alarmed if it doesn't work for you, it's all very nebulous). Either way, go to House Style>Engraving Rules. Once there, go to "Clefs and Key Signatures" and under Key Signatures, check the box next to "Adjust Note Spelling in transposing instruments in remote keys." If that doesn't help, try a manual one staff key signature.

[SYS65]

Thank you Justin, all good ideas, I will check it next time I want to make some of those changes....

[bryla]

Rockin Justin! Thanks a bunch :)

[SSC]

What the hell??

6/8 against 2/4 is not the same as having 6/8 on both and just removing the dot from the dotted 4th note!

It looks wrong and it plays back wrong. The only thing that tokke explained there that is useful is the replacing the visual time signature with text objects. That's what you should be doing, yes. But it simply makes no sense to have 2/4 if it'll just be 6/8 anyway, it's very misleading since a 4th is STILL 2 8ths, regardless of what your time signature is saying unless you simply are making up new rules as you go along. (EVEN IF the 6/8 counts as triplets, but why the hell would you do that?!)

And even then, if your quarter is now 3 8ths, why the hell would you even write 2/4??!

Likewise, why even bother with different key signatures?? I mean I understand it if it's polytonal, but even then it seems redundant.

Jeesh.

[bryla]

Dude, know your Holst

[SSC]

I was thinking Bartok, but even he does other stuff. You really should look at how he writes the rhythms.

[bryla]

This was not a question about musical aestethics or you trying to teach me something about rhythm, but it was about if Sibelius was able to notate the way Mercury is!

[SSC]

Just trying to help you avoid mockery if you were to write something like what tokke did in his example, that's all. I don't really care what you're writing and I never really said anything about aesthetics, just strictly practical things.

[SYS65]

I remember a software called "NoteWorthy Composer" ... that program was so ignorant about music that allowed me to change the beat at any point ,

7/8 in one staff, 3/4 in other etc and the bar lines were in different position of course, sometimes could be useful to have something like that on Sibelius, ...

Also, a very important thing on Sibelius..

When using large orchestra score with lot of staves, I use them small, but in some points the staves a not so many, and I know I can hide the other but can I make the remaining ones bigger, like in professional scores, ... a kinda Zoom for specific pages, I think Finale can do it (isn't it ?) ... If I set staff size an 7mm in "Document Setup" ... it is possible to make it larger in some pages, ... ? if not, that would be a good suggestion for the Sib creators ...

[Tokkemon]

I remember a software called "NoteWorthy Composer" ... that program was so ignorant about music that allowed me to change the beat at any point ,

7/8 in one staff, 3/4 in other etc and the bar lines were in different position of course, sometimes could be useful to have something like that on Sibelius, ...

Also, a very important thing on Sibelius..

When using large orchestra score with lot of staves, I use them small, but in some points the staves a not so many, and I know I can hide the other but can I make the remaining ones bigger, like in professional scores, ... a kinda Zoom for specific pages, I think Finale can do it (isn't it ?) ... If I set staff size an 7mm in "Document Setup" ... it is possible to make it larger in some pages, ... ? if not, that would be a good suggestion for the Sib creators ...

Are you saying make individual pages' staff sizes larger/smaller? No, this feature does not exist on Sibelius...yet. We've been asking for this one since version 3 and they say it will be coming....eventually.

[Tokkemon]

Just trying to help you avoid mockery if you were to write something like what tokke did in his example, that's all. I don't really care what you're writing and I never really said anything about aesthetics, just strictly practical things.

You're telling me you've NEVER seen it done that way? Or is that it shouldn't be done that way?

It's quite popular in English music, esp. Holst.

[SSC]

It shouldn't be done that way. It may show up in Holst, but it makes no sense. Not all the stuff other people do are recommendable, even if they happen to have a super popular piece in which it happens.

[Daniel]

Tokke is right - it shows up quite a lot in Elgar too.

Other things as well, like 3/4 over 2/4, just to keep it cleaner (since he then uses triplets in the 3/4 bar..he would've had to have used nested tuplets).

[bryla]

SSC I started to wonder about Sibelius could do it whilst studying Holst - But Tokke and Daniel are right. It can make things cleaner. Instead of whining you could brush up on your rhythmical skills.

[SSC]

Eh.

Again, just because it's a quirk of a specific tradition it doesn't mean it is intelligent or logical, and I would not recommend writing anything using that since unless the person playing already knows this context it'll look wrong (2/4 vs 6/8 is a syncope, period.)

I don't know how "cleaner" it is to be honest, since again it reads wrong anywhere else in the world. This is precisely like the way triplets vs dotted notes were dealt with around Schubert's time, nobody writes it like that anymore and for good reason: it makes no mathematical sense and it can be misleading.

Hell the only time I would probably allow junk like this is if you were really trying to go for a recreation of that specific style and that's it, but even then, again, why even bother?

I mean unless you have a real hard-on for Holst, it's still dumb to do these days just like it would be to notate figured bass with archaic french tradition numbers, why the hell would you do that?

And that's all I'm saying. I don't see how any of it has to do with me "brushing up on my rhythmical skills."

[Tokkemon]

Dude, it eliminates duplets and quadruplets, which, if used in great frequency, are much harder to read in than triplets or sextuplets.

Take the following example with the multiple ways to write the exact same music. Which would you prefer? I think A and E is the cleanest (though not necessarily clearest).

[SYS65]

Are you saying make individual pages' staff sizes larger/smaller? No, this feature does not exist on Sibelius...yet. We've been asking for this one since version 3 and they say it will be coming....eventually.

Well they should hurry up, is quite needed in orchestral scores, like in Promethee (Scriabin) the pages with the entire orchestra, choir, harps, organ are with tiny staves BUT, the rest of pages are bigger, .... in sibelius the entire score would have to be that small all the time ...

Maybe only few people need that feature, most users (including Sibelius creaters) don't find it necessary ....

----

The rhytm bars, ... Very often I use mixed beats into a single bar like 4/4-12/8 or 5/4-15/8, the half of the notes in page have dots, ... that could be fixed in the way you mention but other combination of beats are still no possible ....I'll search the setup of that "NoteWorthy" and create a quick example of those different beats ...

[HeckelphoneNYC]

For this problem, you have to combine two workarounds, one of rhythm, one for pitch. Both will look right and playback properly. I'm going to use a simple example with pictures to help you out.

Rhythm:

Since you need to have dual time-signatures, one time-signature must predominate, in other words, you need to establish the system time-signature for all instruments so the rhythm for all will relate back to that time signature. 6/8 and 2/4 are relatively easy because 2/4's quarter note is equal to 6/8's dotted quarter. Both have two beats per measure, it is just the subdivision that is different. We will use tuplets in 6/8 to simulate 2/4. To do this:

1. Set a system time signature starting at the bar of the change. (Press T or Create>Time Signature) In this example, we'll use 6/8 as the predominant.
2. Write out the notes that are in the desired rhythm. In this example just straight 8th notes will do, but any valid rhythm in 6/8 will work.
3. Write out the notes that are in Violin II in 2/4. To do this, create a quarter note in beat one, then create a duplet (Ctrl+2 or Create>Tuplet...enter 2 in the box). Notice how the quarter is now equal to a dotted quarter in 6/8. Do this for every measure you intend to have in 2/4. Once you have the duplets written, you can go back and edit notes just like normal, just keep in mind you cannot break tuplets. (You shouldn't have to.) Don't worry if the duplet bracket looks funny with the new rhythm, it will be hidden next.
4. Select the entire part that you made duplets for the 2/4. Go to the Properties window (Ctrl+Alt+P or Window>Properties) and go to the Notes tab. Under Tuplet, change both options to "None" and "No Bracket" That should hide all the brackets. Violin II should now be in 2/4 in everything except name.
5. Now lets go back and change the time signatures. Select the original 6/8 time signature and hide it. (Ctrl+Shift+H or Edit>Hide or Show>Hide)
6. Right-click near the now-hidden time signature and create a new time signature for a single staff. (Right Click>Text>Other Staff Text>Time Signatures (one staff only)) Type exactly "6[enter]8" with no spaces. It should render a perfectly good 6/8 text object that you can now position into place. Repeat the process for a 2/4 signature.
7. Once you have the two text objects we can now position them in place. If you don't have it on already, show all the hidden objects (View>Hidden Objects). Your old 6/8 should show up in a ghost gray. I recommend zooming in a great deal so you can have finer control. Select your new 6/8 text object and position over top of the old 6/8 ghost. If you have magnetic layout on (Sibelius 6), it will make your life much easier by shifting it almost exactly in place automatically. Reseting the position of the text-object is also very helpful if magnetic layout is on. (Ctrl+Shift+P or Layout>Reset Position). It should work with a little patience. Repeat the process for the 2/4 and your done!

Pitch:

Luckily, dual key signatures is far easier than dual time signatures. Again, choose a predominant system key signature to start.

1. With your new rhythm, set a predominant key signature. (K or Create>Key Signature) In this case, we'll use B-flat major. Note that you may have to adjust your note spacing around the new time-signatures depending on how wide the key signature is.
2. Create a new key signature again but this time for only one staff. Press K (or Create>Key Signature) and select E major and check the box way at the bottom saying "One staff only." Click it into place on the Violin II part.
3. Adjust the notes as desired and you're done! Really simply. Sibelius will playback the parts as written so no worries about playback discrepancies.

Hope this helps you out! Let me know if you have any further questions. (I've attached the .sib example file for reference.)

I think all I can say is this covers the whole thing! Thanks for posting, I didn't know how to use 2 time signatures and I needed that for the piece I was working on! :P

[SSC]

What's wrong with having both parts in 6/8? You don't like dotted notes?

The inclusion of the 2/4 there makes no sense, that's the problem.

[SYS65]

No, I have no problem with the dots, ... actually the Tokke example is not what a true 6/8 + 2/4 would be,

or every 6/8 bar would be shorter..

Check this out:

Ups, I couldn't put the image here, it says "You are not allowed to use that image extension on this board" .... well check the attached pic...

This "NoteWorthyComposer" is soooo ignorant about music that can be useful sometimes