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I'm sorry. I just assumed that when you wrote, "Reformulating the question: why branch out from what I already know is good, in pursuit of something about I'm not really sure if it's that good? Just wondering... Perhaps I can discover gold, but is it likely to be found?", you were expressing what you thought, rather than what a certain percentage of potential audiences thought. You did write it after all. But if that is the case then you are correct, I am picking on the wrong guy. I suppose I should be picking on a certain percentage of potential audiences instead ;D It's not really an ad hominem fallacy is it. I simply expressed my sadness at your (or rather, a certain percentage of potential audience's) view that just because something may not be good it should not be explored. I'm sure you are well travelled. I was just posing that as a question to highlight the absurdity of the statement rather than trying to attack your character. I think I was entitled to do that because in fairness, it was a very closed minded thing for you to write. Reading your reply though, it seems that it doesn't apply to you as you have at least tried to appreciate some modern music. I can accept if you don't like it. I suppose I would encourage you to give it another try because I believe it is ultimately worthwhile but if not, fine. My objection is more with the people who won't even take that first step. To come back to food, I'll give you an example. I have a friend who is a very fussy eater and he couldn't stand olives. It turned out he had never actually tried them before. Anyway, I told him to just try them. He didn't like them at first but I wouldn't give him anything else. Now he loves olives and has asked me since if I had any; it just took those first few tries to break through and expose his taste buds to this new sensation. I think that music works in a similar way and just needs time for the ear to process it. Of course, after that you may still not like it but nobody can ever accuse you of being ignorant.

Yes, this is pretty much it for me. There are elitists on both sides but as you state, it's not a case of superiority. Personally I love Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart etc. just as much as Carter, Ligeti and Lutoslawski and if I'm honest the first 3 have probably influenced my composition more than the second 3 in terms of learning how to develop material throughout a piece and come up with structurally sound, goal orientated compositions but these are all things that mostly still happen in contemporary pieces. It's just that the language has changed and so it should with time. It may be hard to deal with at first but give it time for your ears to adjust and the forms, structures, themes, motives, textures and harmonic progressions will reveal themselves. Some people just aren't willing to even try to do that. Therefore their opinions on what is a good or bad piece of modern music are completely irrelevant.

Man, you're picking on the wrong guy. Did I state anything implying that this is the way I think, and not the expression of thoughts by a certain percentage of potential audiences? I could refute your assumptions about me by bringing out my trips covering every continent but Australia, studying accomplishments in quite diverse fields (beyond music), or else - but I don't really think I can reinforce my point by boasting (not to mention I'd be using an authority fallacy to counter your ad hominem fallacy :cool:). You're even assuming that I reject any "modern" music altogether and without ever exposing myself to it - a notion about which fortunately Jaap knows me better :thumbsup: . Some of us, after an initial reluctance, might eventually learn to enjoy Stockhausen, Ligeti or Xenakis, for a few names. But, in my view, this ability by itself doesn't lay any claim of superiority over those other music lovers who choose to stick with Tchaikovsky or Mozart, and can be as serious about them as the former.

I think Robert can be tempted to try newer music. At least that is if he wants to. But sofar I have seen him being openminded, so do not lose heart tuohey :) I think some things are just taste based, and I am fine with that. Again: people shouldn't expose themselves just for its own sake. But neither should they limit themselves. I mean, have you lost any curiosity at all? If you like macaroni, that doesn't mean you'll eat macaroni your entire life, does it? I think in these kinds of debates one need to appeal to that curiosity, and not argue all too offensive (I wont say "that may be just about the saddest thing I have ever read", but I don't judge ;) ) I wonder, (but maybe we should start a post 1913 appreciation class, to gradually expose people, at least that worked for me), I wonder, what is the most out of the box music you actually liked, and why? Then try too expand on that, give something slighlye furter out your comfort zone a few listens. And gradually it starts to make sense, and there is no shame in slowly appreciating things :D

I agree with Phil. People shouldn't be forced to expose themselves. But the question Tuohey raises is that if people seem to have an opinion about something, they should back that with some serious effort in trying to understand what is going on. I am not interested in someones opinion if he only scrached the surface and comes with his superficial judgment. I rather prefer someone honestly saying that he doesnt understand what is happening. Or even better, that the result of combining the p7 and i2 tonerow isn't that special. But in that latter case he shouldn't brag about the geniality of a bach fugue either of praise the motivic cohesion of brahms or whatever.

To all the people who dislike "modern" music (I use the quotation marks because realistically we're talking about music that goes back as far as 1908, which is quite frankly, ridiculous), what have you done exactly to try to appreciate this music? I'll admit, I didn't just fall in love with atonal music. It took a lot of work. I had to invest a lot of time to learn and understand what was going on; my ears took time to adjust, but eventually I got it and now I love it. Rightfully so because a lot of it is absolutely fantastic music that is on a par and in some cases better than the music of Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms etc. You may say something like, "well yes, but somebody needs to educate the people. The composers need to make things clear for the uneducated" No. They don't. The onus is on YOU to learn. Nobody owes you an education. Forget music for a minute; if you have this attitude towards anything in this life you will find yourself stuck in a bubble of ignorance and failure that is completely your own fault and when things do inevitably go wrong for you, you will always find somebody to blame. It will always be somebody else's fault. Take responsibility for yourself and lift your head out of the sand, then maybe you will see where some of us are coming from and why some of us can come across as condescending towards you.

...that some good music isn't remembered. I was talking about what usually happens. btw: I like how you got me to finish your sentence, very teacher-like.

don't make 12 threads at one time

Exaclty what Ian said. It's not like I support any of the positions I mentioned above. But all these things got thrown into the thread... Personally I'm very much in favor of finding the golden ratio between satisfying yourself and the others. I also take special care of the performers, since I'm very much attached to what they will do to my works! ;) It's very much worth considering that if you don't consider your audience, at least consider your performers!

I am not a performer of some of these instruments but here is from my experience: Horns playing at the top of their range is fine if for short durations otherwise you will tire out the poor player. Also it is highly recommended you do not have a horn player start at the utmost top portion of the range as their will always be a slight adjustment in the intonation due to adjusting embrouchure. Horns are more alto tenor instruments with some beautiful mezzo soprano notes if used wisely. Strings - the biggest problems I see is treating bow markings as phrase marks. Composers actually need to do "air violin" to get an idea of reasonable bowing - if you think you are running out of bow as you go in one direction you probably are. Trust me it does work. Another issues is pizz to arco always takes more time than arco to pizz. Going arco to pizz you can use the bow length to propel you to the pizz note, on the other hand when playing pizz you have to reposition your bow over the notes to be played arco. Harmonics - please be careful with artificial harmonics - touched 4th are the safest but you must realize some of them will barely sound due to the string's width. Double stops versus single tones - realized this recently, sometimes asking string players to play continuous double stops from pp to ff and back for too long a time is counterproductive. The fact they have two fingers to play two notes and adjust two fingers takes energy away from focusing on dynamics and tone after awhile. be sure to mix it up. Finally - wide arpeggios, quite exciting and many possibilities but please check the practicality of multiple stops. Oboes - you can write at the topmost range but not for very long periods and leaping to their topmost range is tough. Oboe playing is very athletic and you need to give them more rest than clarinet and flute players. Clarinets - basically they can do everything BUT continuous leaps from chamaleau to clarino (in other words over an octave) tires out both the listener and player. Piccolo - be careful when you get to their topmost range you don't stay their too long - the overtones and intensity of the sound actually can have the player lose temporarily their ability to hear accurately thereby making the next pitches' intonation at risk for instability. Piano - Many people write very unchallenging music for piano. We have pedals so you can have very low pedal notes held by the pedals. The one thing which is tiring and difficult is very fast broken octaves or alternating octaves. Thirds, sixths, fourths played very fast is very difficult. If you want large interval to sound together up to a minor ninth or octave is a sure thing - depends on the player. One thing too is tone decay - it happens very fast and the one trick in piano music to create the illusion of a tone lasting a long time (aside from pedaling) is how you support the long lines - faster more harmonically rich or wide intervals in the bass and tenor will support a long line much better than static chords. Also you can do an old trick from the Classical era - figuration, embellishments of a lone line. Here are some examples of a long line creating in piano writing: Very famous one - Chopin Prelude in E minor which should be studied more than just the harmony and voice leading - listen to how the pianist adds in all of these ralls and accel (some do it way too much - trick of the piece is to do just enough) and note that even Chopin speeds up the line with this expressive leap in eighth notes for a brief measure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4tY0Dv1lh8&feature=fvsr Rach Prelude in A flat major - Rach Prelude in C minor - Here is a good example with spare texture but note the tempo is Andantino and note the wide variety of intervals used, plus some judicious pedaling to create a two voice invention with top line predominant Ligeti - Etude for Irina - Here the long line is in the tenor, excellent piano writing on many levels and challenging to voice - Debussy Reflections In the Water from Mirrors Organ - Actually fast scales on the pedal board can be quite challenging as well as sudden shifts to different positions. ONe thing too is to consider time is needed for complex registration changes and adjustments to opening the boxes for more sound. Keyboard challenges are similar to piano except when considering changes manuals - need to allow a tiny bit of time to switch. Another thing that can be done is thumbing where the thumb plays the melody on one keyboard the other fingers play on another keyboard while the left hand plays its thumb on the same keyboard as the rh thumb bnut its other fingers play on the remaining manual. This is possible really on three manuals. Note though this happens in piano music where a melody in the tenor is played by alternating left and right thumbs. See the Liszt Consolations. One very important thing about organ writing - what may sound a little thin on the piano will sound extremely full. Here is an excellent example of how full organ writing sounds - Also very pianist writing is difficult on the organ - eg legato of 4 note chords in each hand can be difficult - one of many reasons why the Vierne symphonies are challenging. Double Basses - Top range can sound extremely thin on one instrument - but multiple double basses doing this in unisons will increase the sound hundred fold. Also you need time to allow the strings to speak - why do you think in jazz trios the bass lines are plucked a fair amount? It allows the instrument to speak more quickly but with the resonance of plucked dbass strings it still provides a stable bass line. Actually to tie this in to organ,. think of the pedalboard of an organ as a doublebass or cello. Phew, that is quite a bit ... I definitely gotta start offering comp lessons to beginners.

To all composers and arrangers of band music who like to add string parts: - Don't copy and paste the bass guitar part into the cellos. We can't play the low B as you seem to think we can. - Please don't just write long notes for us all the time. It's boring and we feel like you can't be bothered to give us anything interesting. - On the other hand, please don't write any stupidly rapid wide leaps that we can't do either. Do you ever read orchestration books?

I enjoyed that very much! Even through my terrible midi player sounds. Hint of Frank Zappa. Check out this guy you might like it: Hermann Szobel on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads