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It depends entirely on the people participating and their willingness to separate themselves from their own ideas, so that attacking an idea isn't attacking THEM, as an individual. This also helps to just admit when you got something wrong, or more importantly, when you misunderstood someone's position, which is a lot more common. The thing is, there's also the type of people who think that the discussion forum is their personal blog, which makes things really hard since they have no interest in, well, discussing. It's parroting a position, or being highly combative. This kind of zero-sum mentality ends poorly for both the thread and the community in general. There's a reason why in the guidelines I wrote 12 years ago there's this bit: This is a reference to an actual dude who showed up once and that was his main argument. He'd basically invade miscellaneous threads and post about how it's all garbage except for music written before 1740 (or some other highly specific date, I don't remember exactly.) He got banned shortly after for being disruptive. We've had this, and we've had all sorts of stuff over the years. But in the end, like I said before, if we're civil and nice to each other, we can get over all that stuff and have a good community that values and respects its members, even if people disagree on things. Back then we had quite a variety of different people holding different view points, and besides some banter, we were all still there. And for the few of us who remain, I really wish we can get something like that going again.

Is there a culture of toxic masculinity (or in general, toxic superiority) at Young Composers Forum? I think this is a pertinent question given some recent exchanges in the forums. Namely, the insistence that in order to have a valid opinion one must "show your work" or "prove your point using empirical evidence". That kind of reasoning is understandable if one is trying to publish a peer reviewed article in some sort of musicological journal where the scientific method is a must. But here? Whatever happened to just having an opinion based on what you believe to be right and agreeing to disagree? Recent topics seem to degenerate to proving your point right beyond a doubt and if you can't then you're not a man and you're not right. It's a competition where each party resorts to basically yelling at each other "I'm more right than you are!" (metaphorically of course). Thoughts?

Quinn, I think you're right for the most part. I might have come across a little strongly in my post above because I was annoyed at the autism thing surfacing on multiple threads over a couple days. I felt like that wasn't the first time either, but going through this forum, I see the vast majority of discussions are quite respectful. So I might have been a little unfair to the forum's overall culture in my first post, and I apologize for that. And the viewpoint intolerance that I mentioned is just what's being discussed in this thread: the tendency to attack the person based on their viewpoint. (Which, again, is probably rarer here than maybe I implied in my original post.) So I think we're actually in agreement there. I have to disagree with the "if you feel uncomfortable, leave" mentality, though... I'm not a mod or admin, but I would think they would want as many composers as possible to feel welcome here. And it's generally not a good look to make people feel unwelcome based on their identity (which tends to happen when multiple people use that identity as an insult). That's all I meant.

\editing this post as a new post intervened. NRKulus ^^^ Can't help a little surprise at that. I haven't noticed much intolerance. What is there in music to be intolerant about except listeners' style preferences? There have been discussions and occasionally sharp words. So what? But when it comes to ad hominem attacks or 'I'm superior to you' there's no excuse. Some are more experienced than others but even the most experience had to start somewhere and were dependent on tuition; help; tips from those more seasoned. And there's no need to attack the person rather than question their argument. If I felt uncomfortable about posting a view or even a crit, I wouldn't post it. If I were to feel uncomfortable here; I'd leave. Perhaps because I spend most of my time listening and sometimes commenting on members' works I don't notice it as much.

Thanks, SSC. From what I've observed, it's not usually too bad here, but there are little things like what I mentioned that can make people uncomfortable about posting or feel like their viewpoints might not be welcome... so I thought it was important to point out.

Hi! I don't post a lot anymore on this forum besides reviewing people's choral music, but I feel the need to chime in after reading this, as well as the other 3-page thread that's presumably being referenced here. One thing both threads have in common? Using "asperger's" or "on the spectrum" as either an excuse for disrespectful behaviour or a straight-up insult (the latter was by the person who was banned for his toxic comments on the other thread--rightly, in my opinion). Well, I am on the [autism] spectrum (not the only one on this forum, either) and I'm pretty sick of people using my condition as a synonym for either "mean" or "stupid". I promise you that's not what it means. In fact, the discussions on the autistic forums I'm a part of are generally more mature and respectful than the ones here. So I don't know about toxic masculinity, but this is another example of intolerance on this forum. (And yes, intolerance for differing viewpoints is another pretty pervasive one that's already been addressed in this thread.) I can't speak for others, but it's part of why I post as little as I do--and I'm always extremely careful what I say, lest I give people more ammunition for conflating autism with something it's not.

100% agree. My teacher used to say: Education isn't up to taste and you don't get to just skip things because you don't like them. I'm glad I was able to cover so much stuff in my studies, because, like you said, it prepares you for being a professional regardless of what you end up doing. Specially true with the logistics and rehearsals and so on. That part was very important for me.

Agreed, SSC. Good teachers don't just let their students bring in some random thing they've been working on for evaluation once a week. They put together a cohesive set of assignments that work different parts of the composer toolkit, so that by the time you graduate, you may gravitate to a certain style, but you have learned everything you need to know to continue down any path you choose. You may like or be known for a certain style, but also have some paid work available doing something rather different. Graduates need to have the choice of taking the paycheck when it's offered, whether that means teaching composition students of their own in everything from counterpoint to minimalism, or turning their famous string piece into a wind arrangement, or writing something very basic for an amateur group that wants to commission them.

Let's see now: Yes, you're a real diplomat. And as the cherry on top, implying I have aspergers? Stay classy dude and remember: We are masters of the unsaid words, but slaves of those we let slip out.

Hello all, I don't know if this is the right place for this idea/discussion point but........... Recently I made a joke about being a bit obessive when it comes to my music (and the orientation of the jars in my cupboards but that's besides the point), but do you think that such obsession is necessary in order to be a good musician/composer? I personally think, if it's not exactly necessary, it is at least a more common personality trait than one might imagine among many musicians and composers. What do you think?

Whether or not it's "toxic masculinity/superiority/blah" is, to me, missing the point. It's just a lack of common decency and respect from certain members.

I agree one can have just an opinion but if you discuss about it you are going to give arguments and these lead to counterarguments, leading to more arguments etcetera. Why discuss if you don't want to have arguments? I'm fine with someone thinking modern music is terrible noise but if I belong to some sort of evil group because I compose also modern music... Than it heads in a wrong direction pretty fast. And yes you can think modern music is evil, such opinion must be allowed imo, but keep it civilized.

I wish this was the case, and it should be. I would hope to receive lots of technical comments on my work from those who've studied music seriously. And just the same, I like hearing the thoughts from teenagers and amateur composers too. We're ultimately trying to affect anyone who listens to our music, and I like hearing any kind of feedback. Arguing can be fun, but a lot of times it can lead to maliciousness and vendettas, and I'm sure it's a pretty big turn off for anyone dipping their toes in the YC waters for the first time. Regardless of who's right or wrong, when a 60 comment thread is blatantly going nowhere and reeks of an active warhead, those types of discussions should maybe be taken to personal messages to resolve any type of derailed issue. Unfortunately, not everyone is mature enough to handle dissenting opinions the right way, and it's a shame it can be viewed publicly in what is supposed to be a forum mostly meant for young aspiring composers. I just hope younger members feel like they can say what they want to say without feeling the need to have a Master's to drop a comment. It doesn't necessarily feel like that to me, but just saying I hope it doesn't feel like that to others; It used to not when I joined this site like 13 years ago or whatever. And this

What I personally do is when debating someone who is quite difficult, is to start using the phrase In my opinion when I see someone getting defensive. This way it diffuses the tension a bit, and you can't argue the fact that this is my opinion. But it depends on the person, because sometimes people don't read or listen and are just plain tone deaf. If that is the case, then a healthy debate cannot even be possible, and its best to just settle the argument with a friendly "we will just agree to disagree" statement.