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I'm writing a violin cadenza and the playback says it's about 2 mins long although I estimate a real life player would take about 2 mins 15 s. How long should it be?

Hello everyone, I want to share a Bagatelle I just composed. I composed it all at the piano (my first piece composed in the piano, instead of through Sibelius) and wrote it down afterwards. I posted it on the "Incomplete Works" section as I was having second thoughts about the B section but I ended up not making so many changes and only some improvements here and there. It is a Bagatelle in F major for piano (thanks to @PeterthePapercomPoser for giving me the clue to find out the style of the piece). I played it in a Yamaha P-515 digital piano with the Bösendorfer piano sound. Since my playing is not so good I had to record the whole thing in three different parts and then mix them in Audacity. I tried to fix any sound issue that appeared but there are two particular spots that sound strange as I was not able to mix them better, so sorry about that. Also, I make a couple of mistakes here and there. The good thing is that, since I composed it by playing it myself, it is not a particularly hard piece to play. The piece is in ABA' form with the main theme (A) in Fmaj and a contrasting section (B) in Fmin. Any comment and feedback is more than welcome! Thank you for listening and hope you enjoy it!

Thank you so much Luis, I am really glad you liked it! I agree that the score lacks soul. I am planning to add dynamics and markings but now since I did not compose it through the software (where I was forced to place dynamics for the midi playback to sound realistic) I am actually not even sure which markings to put that will make players perform it as would like to 😅 I will have to give it some though and add them to make the score looks better. Thanks for commenting and I hope everything is going well with you!!

This capriccio has an air of ancient dance with a lot of charm. Your works are so concise and stylish.

It is a delicate and very beautiful piece. It also seems to me very coherent in terms of its structure and evolution. It's a plus that you play it yourself, although for that very reason the notation lacks the "soul" (no dynamics and all that). A great job.

I just checked the "Fur Elise" and it is a Bagatelle, not a Barcarolle. It seems we both got mixed-up 🤣. And you are actually right, Bagatelles are normally short piano pieces light and melodic in character so it will suit this piece perfectly! I will probably name it Bagatelle then. Thank you so much for the compliments on my playing! I am still learning so my skills are not too good, and I had to record everything in three different sections which I had to mix later 😅 But I find knowing piano helps so much for composing faster and, of course, it sounds much more beautiful that with Sibelius and Noteperformer. I will try hard to keep on learning even though it is harder than I expected :S. Thank you!!

I am not familiar enough with naming conventions about the barcarolle. I just threw that name out there because I thought that Beethoven's Fur Elise was a barcarolle and I considered your piece similar enough to it to warrant a comparison. Btw - I really liked the way you played it! It has a very personal touch of rubato. I wouldn't change how it's notated - it's very individual and not cookie-cutter as @gaspard would say.

Thank you so much for your comment and encouragement, @PeterthePapercomPoser! After reading your comment I learned to appreciate the B section a little better and tried only to make it a little longer instead of changing it almost completely, which was my original plan. I guess the only thing I can do for feeling more comfortable and less self-conscious about the contrasting, development, and variation sections is only to keep on practicing until they come up to me more naturally and learn to trust more my musical decisions. I checked the link and I really liked your idea of varying themes and musical ideas only a little (making it stay almost the same) but doing it in a recursive way so, in the end, it results in a totally different musical idea. I will try to use that as a practice for developing pieces in the future. Could it be considered a Barcarolle? I though Barcarolles were mostly in compound meters but I do not know much about the style. My piece is in common time, even though I cannot imagine it without the exact same rubato that I played it with (so sometimes I am even wondering whether I actually notated the tempo incorrectly). I ask about it because I will post the piece soon as a completed piece in the forum when I solve some audio issues but I have not idea how I could call it. I normally like to call pieces by the style it is in "Minuet in Fmaj, Waltz in Fmaj, etc...". In this case I am not sure what it is and I do not want to call it "Binary form piano piece in Fmaj" 🤣 Do you have any idea in which style/form this piece could be fit? Would Barcarolle be appropriate? Thank you for your comment and hope you are doing great!

There is no standard, of course, but one minute seems like it oughta be about the shortest, and three minutes maybe the longest. It might be worthwhile to look at the durations of some of the more well known cadenzas in the repertoire.

Hi @JorgeDavid! I think this is a quaint little barcarolle! The theme really works and is beautifully simple. I think every note you wrote here is essential and related to the main theme. It is so good that there's no shame in repeating it - Beethoven does the same thing in the Fur Elise. Also, your arpeggiation of the dominant chord happens very naturally and arises from the melody. As for how to vary your melody - you already made a quite successful variation in the parallel minor! Other ideas might be to change the tempo and meter to give the same material a totally different feel. Also - check out this topic: Thanks for sharing!

Whole explanation here: https://komptools.blogspot.com/2023/10/acordes-ascendidos-ii-modulacion.html

Hi @bored_comedy, I love your motivic play! You have that motive either stands alone along the chaos, tainted with chaos itself like the ending, or purified as in the middle section in b.11. Even the accompaniments are derived from the opening motive. You also use the augmentation of the motive, so basically there are 3 rhythmic layers here. It's funny since even though the music itself is chaotic and tones are clashing with each other, the materials themselves come from the same motive and thus very coherent. (Is that the fate of human being fighting each other? But they share the same moral rules and human reason lol but in constant clashes, thinking themselves right. That's the implication I get from this music) Maybe a 2/2 alla breve will better than a 4/4 time signature, given the tempo is fast? Thanks for sharing! Henry

I wrote this for Austenite, after reviewing the introduction to his recent organ piece, but it may prove useful and/or interesting to others, too. For any aspiring conductors, this is an example of how to properly read a score (that is: reading the musical meaning or sense from it), and for composers, observing the detail of this introduction and observing how its effects are created is the best way to learn to compose your own. If anybody has anything to add, please feel free. Typically, the introduction to a serious piece of music sets up the (or a) proposition, problem, idea, &c., that is to be elaborated upon by the main portion of the movement, just like the introduction to a speech or an essay. This is set up by the musical 'argument' of the intro, which creates and introduces this (or these) feature(s) through the form and momentum of its material. Tchaikovsky opens his fourth symphony: An ff fanfare is announced by the horns (beefed up by the bassoons). These seven bars contain three different kinds of material: the rhythmic figure on Ab of the opening two bars, the figure of bars 3 and 4 which lead to or around this Ab, and the downward leading quavers which begin in bar 5 and lead to the downbeat of 7. Now, inventing the opening rhythm is no great feat in itself, but observing its features and crafting the following music out of them makes for engaging music. 3/4: three crotchet beats in a bar, with the strongest accent on the first. Tchaikovsky's idea strikes the first crotchet beat, ties this over to the first quaver of the second crotchet beat (leaving out an attack), plays three triplet semiquavers on the latter part of the second crotchet beat, and slows these to two quavers on the third crotchet beat. The effect is that of a dominating first beat, with the remainder of the bar pushing towards the downbeat of the following measure, all on one note, Ab. Measure 2 repeats this gesture, pushing towards another strong dotted crotchet Ab on the downbeat of measure 3. The leap downwards in this measure to F, however, along with the shortened note value, pushes the accent one crotchet further, to the Ab on the second beat of measure 3, taking the accent off of the first beat of the bar and putting it on the second (note that this beat was not attacked in the first two bars). This new rhythmic gesture is repeated in bar 4, now with the triplets circling around the Ab. The fifth bar reinstates the first-beat accent (note the accent mark) on C (notice, also, the stepwise motion up to this C, created by the highest notes of each bar: Ab | Ab | F Ab | Bb Ab | C; this is a reflection of the three note triplet gestures F-G-Ab and Bb-Ab-G). Downward moving scalar quavers take up the second and third beats of this bar, creating a slight push towards the downbeat of the sixth bar, which pushes further by continuing the quaver motion, shifting the goal one bar further as trombones and tuba are added, to give weight to this goal. When this is reached in bar 7, two unexpected events occur: firstly, the downbeat goal (which we may have imagined to be Eb, if we imagined anything at all) turns out to be a chromatic note, E, which certainly grabs our attention; simultaneously, the trumpets and winds enter with the opening idea: The result is a bright and startling diminished fourth (note that, although this could be respelled as a major third, the tonal context up until that point—viz., four flats—marks this interval as surprising, as it contains a chromatic tone; it is dissonant in the sense that it is unstable). While the newly introduced instruments play the fanfare, the continuing ones set up a rhythmic dissonance by striking the second crotchet beat (which the opening bars of the fanfare don't attack) with a long held note (twice the length of the fanfare's long note), E. This E then expands outward to D and F, on the second beat of bar 8, creating a dissonant diminished chord with the fanfare's Ab. Both dissonances (harmonic and rhythmic) are resolved on the second beat of bar 9, as the fanfare pushes its accent onto the second beat of the bar, and the accompaniment moves its D to Db, creating a consonant major chord (note the lack of a tie between measures 8 and 9 in the accompaniment, marking that something new is about to occur). Compositionally, the progression of these three chords, E major-D diminished-Db major, is determined by common notes. In bar 7, where there is only two notes, E and Ab, the fanfare's Ab constitutes the common tone with the following three note diminished chord, D-F-Ab, in bar 8 (the fanfare's melody is the one being harmonised); these upper two notes, F and Ab, are the common tones in bar 9, as the bass moves to Db to create the major chord (note that, in this bar, Ab and F are the two tones in the fanfare). This progression does not imply an particular key, and we're left waiting until the end of the introduction to find out what the key might be. Like a fourth species counterpoint, the resolution lasts only long enough to be heard, and again moves to a dissonance, as the Db major chord becomes a 4/2 above Cb, creating another push. In bar 10, the fanfare, rather than leap up to Bb as in the original, repeats the F-G-Ab of bar 9. The 4/2 is struck again on the second beat, and the accompaniment then moves to Ab and C, creating a 6/3 above Ab on the third beat with the fanfare's Ab and F, again via common-tone chord connection. The following bar (11) provides a third iteration of the fanfare's F-G-Ab figure, creating a sense that something new is about to happen to break the motion and reach a point of rest: This time, on the second beat, the lower strings enter, joining the accompaniment as it moves to E and B (or Fb and Cb), creating another 'out of context' E major chord with the fanfare's Ab (notice the arpeggiation Cb-Ab-E/Fb, which is an enharmonically spelled E major chord); like the first time, this harmony sets off a rhythmic dissonance, as the fanfare becomes syncopated, striking off the beat (i.e., on the second quaver of each crotchet beat) as the accompaniment strikes on the beat. The repetitions continue and the tension builds through measure 12 towards measure 13; in a good performance, the tempo will fluctuate in this bar, creating the sense that a downbeat goal (on which all the instruments will come together) is coming on the first beat of bar 13. Rhythmically, we get this resolution on the anticipated beat, but the harmony once again moves from E major to D diminished, now with an added diminished seventh (Cb/B), as the upper strings and timpani enter, cutting the gesture off and thwarting its resolution. The winds and upper brass (all the instruments which introduced the first fanfare rhythm begun in bars 1 and 7; the bassoons now double at the unison, rather than the octave as in the original, due to the addition of other instruments in the upper register) go for a second try, by reintroducing the fanfare motif, but are again cut off by a dissonant chord, this time after only a single bar: As before, the D of the accompaniment moves down to Db and the upper notes are kept, but the newly added top note, B (from measure 13) makes the chord dissonant (this, in fact, is the same note that originally made this chord dissonant when it moved to a 4/2 in bar 9, but it is now in the soprano and occurs as a simultaneity, but that is merely an analytical observation). Another attempt at continuation in bar 16, this time from the horns alone (not even doubled by the bassoons), who introduced the motif originally; the dynamic is lowered to f (bassoons, when doubling, often get swallowed up by the timbre of the instrument they're doubling, especially as their register gets higher, and serve only to strengthen the sound; in the opening, a bassoon against two ff horns certainly does not shine through, and their omission here, especially in combination with the lowered dynamic, merely creates the sense that the opening's material has returned in weakened form). On the final quaver of the bar, the old tie appears, missing the downbeat by tying over into bar 17. The strings, also only f, punctuate this bar on the downbeat with a dotted minim (the length of the long long note, from bar 7), marking the rhythmic dissonance by creating another E major chord, this time in a weaker 6/4 position which pushes onwards by requiring a stronger harmony; both the fanfare and the accompaniment decrescendo again. The fanfare appears again in the horns, now only mf. The same tying on the final quaver occurs, and in bar 19 the strings again enter, with Ab and C in the accompaniment (as before) but now with an added E, creating a tensely dissonant augmented chord and pushing further. There is another decrescendo down to p; the fanfare strikes a crotchet on the third beat of this bar, compressing the space (note the detail: the strings rest on this crotchet), and ties this over to measure 20, where the accompaniment enters p, not with E/Fb in the bass as before, but with F and C (this makes the arpeggation of the 'seeking' string chords: Cb-Ab-F; three minor thirds, which will prove to be the three keys of the exposition), creating the first properly and fully consonant chord of the introduction with the fanfare's Ab: F minor (which will be the key of the symphony). The fanfare then decrescendos again, and for the last time strikes the third beat, linking into a rhythmically augmented version of the F-G-Ab figure in the clarinets and bassoons in measure 21. The F on the third beat of measure 21 does not lead straight to C as in the opening, however. A new motif appears, pp, in the form of an appoggiatura Db-C which, like the opening fanfare, is dwelt upon in three rhythmic forms as the tempo slows, before pausing on the final crotchet of measure 26, and leading into the first theme of the symphony in the following bar (the necessity of introducing this motif prompted the change of instrumentation in bar 21: the Db would be too high to reliably play quietly on the horns; a 2 clarinets and bassoons in octaves is a good substitute). At the pause, then, what we have in our ears, among other things, is the idea of F minor as a point of rest and a goal, the emphasis on the chromatic chord E major in a four-flat context and its correlation with rhythmic dissonance, the pull between competing accents and times, and the sense that the fanfare never reached a conclusion (as well as, of course, the motivic material of this section). Right at the opening of the first theme, we hear the rhythmic element come into play, with a very interesting idea which sounds like 4/4 with a bizarre extension at the end (the time is written as 9/8, but we hear strikes every crotchet; where you would expect the downbeat of 4/4, however, there is nothing, due to the dotted quaver): This goes on to be elaborated from bar 36, where the fanfare rhythm is referenced in the strings' accompaniment to the wind's presentation of the idea; the preceding two bars, 34 and 35, mount tension which leads to this repetition in bar 36 by converting the rhythm into compound time. When our old friend E major comes back in bar 42, however, the dissonance between the two times becomes overt, as our missing attack in the '4/4' bar is struck, but is not tied over into the following bar. This begins to build a tension which reaches its breaking point in measure 47, with the three accented quavers, and is released by chromatically changing the iv6 into a German 6/5 (through common-tone connection) and breaking out into a downbeat dominant in measure 48, with a Db-C motion in the bass. : The interplay between these ideas and the material which constitutes them characterizes the entire movement, and the seeds were planted, for this, in the introduction, which was carefully crafted to make every note count. When composing, conducting, playing, analysing, or whatever, it is important to consider every detail of our scores, perhaps even asking ourselves questions about the material or altering it slightly to observe the effect, if we don't understand something immediately. This is what constitutes true musicianship.