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Thank you all for the feedback! The past couple of days have been busy, so I’m only just getting around to responding. On the choice of key @Luis Hernández I did consider transposing the piece to E minor to make it more comfortable for the musicians. Ultimately, I decided against it because I think the key contributes to the harmonic “color”—something that becomes even more significant in orchestration. Speaking from a string player’s perspective, the reduced resonance from open strings and the frequent need for vibrato help reinforce the piece’s somber, melancholic mood. There are also contrasting sections that modulate to more string-friendly keys, such as G major. In those passages, I use open strings and natural harmonics to make the contrast more pronounced. @Alex Weidmann , speaking as a semi-professional string player, I’d say it’s definitely playable. That said, it’s an uncommon orchestral key and creates plenty of intonation challenges for the ensemble. I can also confirm from experience that orchestral players generally aren’t too thrilled when they see a key signature with five or more flats or sharps! Orchestration choices Thank you for the detailed feedback, @Luis Hernández I agree that I may have written the English horn parts a little too high in places. Honestly, if I’d had the option, I might have scored the piece for two English horn players, since the instrument’s tone and timbre fit the atmosphere so well. Strangely, I’ve never been especially fond of writing two oboe parts—but maybe that’s just me. You’re probably right about bars 52–53. My intention was to thin out the upper octaves so that the viola-and-cello octave line would come through more clearly, with the upper voices adding a kind of “shine” to it. In a live performance, I think it could work reasonably well, depending on the strength of the flute players. I’ve been using Dorico since Finale went bust. I used its automatic condensing feature for this score, but I’m not always happy with the choices it makes. I usually go back and manually condense or uncondense the parts, but I didn’t have time to do that for this piece.

OK I think this is the best reason for maintaining the key. In other words, doing so with that conscious intention, as in the examples from the repertoire. I use Dorico too, but I’ve been using it ever since version 1 came out. I used to use Finale as well, but I never liked it, so I switched. I now consider myself an ‘expert’ in quite a few areas, though not so much in others because they don’t interest me. The condensing feature is brilliant, but sometimes you drive yourself mad trying to work out why something hasn’t been condensed. The programme still has some bugs in this respect. Best regards.

Avey Tare & Panda Bear - Alvin Row ignore the first 2 minutes of this song

I don’t think that you—as a composer at this level, as here at the YCF—should try too hard to develop a personal style, since it seems impossible to me to even intend to do so; for, on the one hand, “almost everything” already exists in terms of musical forms, systems, and languages, and on the other hand—even if one of us were the absolute genius who shapes and influences an entire era—he would unfortunately never live to see it, since such groundbreaking developments are usually only recognized decades or even centuries after the composer’s death. With that said, one should not bother much about it, since a personal musical language actually develops almost automatically as long as your composition exercises and works aren’t too “random,” you follow a consistent approach in your work, and try to incorporate only a few influences from different musical styles or languages into your next piece, rather than imitating a specific style in one piece and then switching to the style of a completely different composer or era in the next. After a year of being a member here on the forum and participating in three competitions or events, I think, I could identify some composers based on their “personal style”—for example (this is a very arbitrary list and by no means exhaustive …): @UncleRed99 – famous for the „warmth“ in its pieces, its chord progression and beautiful utilization of woodwinds. @Fruit hunter – very interesting percussion pieces. @Fugax Contrapunctus – everything about fugues and canons in an extremely thorough, intellectual (and even theoretical) way. @HoYin Cheung – mostly atonal pieces, especially for strings. @L.S Barros – influenced by renaissance and baroque, often utilizing brass ensembles and perhaps myself – counterpoint composition technique, voice leading, and mixed with influences from the 20th century, always starting as piano piece, but more and more orchestration examples ... Maybe for one of the next contests, we could make the submissions anonymous and award badges to the reviewers who correctly guess the most composers… (perhaps a silly idea).

I'll upload at main text. Really ty.

It's fine I get it. Get it ready soon! 😁

Hello.... I’ve finally managed to listen to the whole piece. I’m not going to make any technical comments or anything like that, as there are people of a much higher calibre who’ve already done so. I’ll just say that I really liked it. I think you have a powerful vision of what modern, chromatic counterpoint can be. Everything fits together perfectly and the piece never gives the slightest hint of being boring. What’s more, it’s a real pleasure to see such a clear score. Well done.

Deleted. Really sorry. Sounds so rough is why I deleted. I Don't know how I can deal DAW well...

Have you made it private or deleted it?

in my opinion butterfly lovers violin concerto is really underrated and so is chopin nocturne in c# minor or maybe theyre not that underrated idk

@Wieland Handke I feel noticed. 😁 And nah-nah-nah-booo-booo he listed me fiiiiirrsst 😝

Hello @Alex Weidmann , this post is a bit „off topic“, I wanted to respond to your yesterday’s post „Drozdov - Au Tombeau De Rachmaninoff (orchestration)“, which has now disappeared (for good reasons). But the “internet” never forgets (I, fortunately had the page still open ... 🤪), so I can quote one of your lines: „I'm totally hooked on orchestration now. You enter notes from a score, like a recipe, and something magical comes out! And it's in a form no one's ever heard before. What could be better than that?„ Yes, that’s been my experience too, that - while it does take a lot of effort to expand a piano piece (let’s say with four or six voices) to an entire orchestra which literally has more than 30 „tracks“ that can be used – it is really fun to play around with the instruments. Normally, my compositions are for piano (and I think I’ll continue to compose pieces entirely for piano first, before I begin orchestrating them), so that I thought for a long time, I would not be interested in pieces for full orchestra. But there were two experiences during the last few month which have caused my interest in orchestration to grow more and more: First, there is a choir and an orchestra in Berlin (the “Orso Choir”) that were founded by a very dynamic man and are under his direction. About twice a year, they perform special arrangements orchestrated by the conductor at the Berliner Philharmonie —for example, interpretations of rock music, film scores, or even themes from video games. And even though these genres aren’t usually among my interests, it’s great fun to watch the conductor “play” with his “toy”—the symphony orchestra. The second was a performance of of Dvořák’s “Stabat Mater” with a full orchestra and a massive choir (430 singers). This was a real fun, not only because of the bombastic sound, but also because I was able to follow Dvořák’s orchestration live. For example, in the opening movement, Dvorak stays very long on the harmonies and even single tones – letting them „rotate“ through the entire orchestra. At one point, you hear and see the cellos playing a chord while the double basses accompany them with pizzicato. A moment later, you can still hear the chord, but you see that the cellos have stopped playing, and after a moment of surprise, you realize that the horns have taken over and the pizzicato has been reinforced by the timpani. Yet the transition was so seamless that you didn’t even notice the change in instruments, only a slight shift in timbre. So, let’s go on orchestrating (and composing)! Wieland

Hello, I got the sheets and followed along with the music for the one in C major. There is a brief part of the piece that sounds like Brahms to my ears... Maybe it's because I don't know much about Brahms and when I hear lullaby I get subconsciously primed to think of Brahms :). From a performance point of view, I found it easier to play the notes differently than how you notated it. IE, instead of playing 3 notes in left hand and 3 notes in right hand, I found it easier to play 4 notes in left hand and 2 notes in right hand sometimes. Dunno if it's worth to do some cross beaming. Hopefully that makes sense.

The piece in F major is well done. Although it has simple, sparse lines, it all sounds really good to me.

Fair point. I agree with this (without nostalgia, of course). It seems that because people are being exposed to so many musical languages today, there can be an underlying sentiment that "all music is equal". Or else the classical canon is treated as something sacred and inviolable, and its composers above all criticism. Either approach bypasses the hard and necessary work of actually understanding WHAT makes these pieces work, on a level deeper than that of surface rule-following (since rules evolve and change, but the principles behind music don't). Quoting Boulez here: "In order truly to harness the power of the classics, you have to dig deeper, reach down to what made them behave in a particular way, to understand and to analyze their approach. It is not enough to observe the results and to dispossess them (quotation, stylistic imitation, etc.); creativity does not have sufficiently powerful thematicism at its disposal, but becomes spent, though referencing and distorting, no longer able to forge material only for itself."

The reason for that is because it has a low barrier to entry. With synths and sound design, you can hold down a single note and get instant "atmosphere". You can be someone who comes from the EDM world and potentially score a major film. Creating the equivalent with an orchestra is much more difficult and much more work, but the results are always more musical. Directors these days don't really care much about what instruments you use, melody, etc. They just care that it "fits the vibe". A lot of people are mistakenly assuming the directors only want this synth stuff. On my most recent film, I used a mix of synths and orchestra, but I deliberately tried to write in the "old style" as much as possible. The director was never bothered by melody or the orchestra (he had no real requirements regarding instruments), his feedback only ever concerned "vibe" and whether something was too big or small sounding for a given scene.

Talk of "innovation" is a moot point when we are inundated with music that isn't even "good" to begin with. If something is new, but it sucks, then it doesn't matter how different it is. So the conversation is kind of cart before horse. People mistakenly assume, in a world right now of endless remakes, re-releases, etc. that the problem is a lack of "new ideas". The reality is that we, as a society, are not presently able to replicate what made the the old things great in the first place. And if we can't do that, then no "innovative" idea is going to be worth a damn.

I just hope you don't use triplets as a crutch. I think beginning composers often struggle with writing good melodies that don't sound like just noodling up and down in a certain scale/key and introducing triplets or other novel rhythms is a crutch that many use to try and create melodic interest and imo it doesn't really work. Nothing can substitute for a good idea of where a melody is going and having a good form/structure.

"Meandering Up and down".......................... that made me laugh out loud , or should i say LOL ?

I think it sounds absolutely brilliant. And it’s an impressive piece of work, especially the detail with which you’ve crafted the strings. I also really like the fact that ‘it doesn’t sound like a piano at all, but rather like an orchestra’. And yes, I did want to make a few observations which, as I say, are just that – my opinions. Firstly, I’ve already mentioned the question of key. E flat minor is a brilliant key for the piano, but it’s one of the worst for the orchestra. Berlioz said as much in his treatise, as did Rimsky-Korsakov in his. I don’t know, it seems there’s a bit of a fear of transposing the work a semitone up or down, as if it were sacrilege or as if we were straying terribly from the composer’s intention. I believe that if we’re orchestrating, we have to make the best decisions to ensure it sounds as good as possible. But I’ll say it again, it’s up to each individual. The second point is the choice of the English horn as an instrument throughout the work. It’s not that I think it’s wrong, but I do wonder whether it’s really necessary. Apart from specific cases (Impressionism, etc.) where it can serve as a distinctive ‘colour’ instrument, in the orchestra I believe it is an instrument of extension and should only be used when the two oboes cannot cover the lower register. The opening line, for example, could be played very well by a second oboe. In other instances, even where it is possible, I feel the English horn is in a rather high register. Thirdly, another instrument where I would sometimes have assigned its part to a different instrument is the flute. In bar 15, it is in a low/very low register and will be completely drowned out by the English horn, even with the flutes in A2. I can see the intention to add a different colour to that phrase, which is why they’re doubling, but I’m not sure – in this case, I would have doubled the C an octave higher with a clarinet, for example. The octave doubling of the A-flat flute in bars 52–53… There, Flute 1 completely drowns out Flute 2 because it’s in its brilliant register, and Flute 2 is doing its best. One of the things I was taught on the woodwinds is to try not to double at the octave with the same instrument, because the difference (imbalance) in tone and volume is very great. It’s better to double with another instrument whose range in that other octave is optimal. Well, please excuse all this, as these are minor details in the context of such an extensive and beautifully crafted score, which sounds absolutely marvellous. Finally, a question: what software do you use.... In bars 73 and 74, the clarinets haven’t been condensed I don’t know if you do this manually or if the condensing is automated. I sometimes have those problems and when the programme won’t...

Wonderful job!! Your orchestration really demonstrates an understanding of the instruments and timbre - the color achieved when combining different instrument groups is 👌🏾 I don't really have any other notes. It's really balanced and retains the feel of the original piano piece. Nicely done 😁

Now we have two Eb minor pieces right next to each other! Congratulations on your arrangement. Especially enjoyed your use of muted horns, and viola solos. Seem to remember using the harp even more sparingly in my version.

I forgot to mention Japanese music, as I'm only slightly familiar with it. In particular, I really think Async by Ryuichi Sakamoto is a great work. Also, I find some J-Pop songs fascinating. The vocal styles are quite distinctive to my ears. So, these are Japanese examples. Ryuichi Sakamoto - Async DAIKI TSUNETA - THE FEST SUITE FOR CARTIER J-Pop ↓ ヨルシカ - だから僕は音楽を辞めた Fujii Kaze - Nan-Nan Kenshi Yonezu - Pop Song

Ok, this is such an interesting topic. I didn't know some of the pieces and musicians. I've already learned about new music :) I hope that more people will respond to it. Here are my examples. Johan Johannsson - Orphee John Adams - Short Ride in a Fast Machine Albert Zabel - La Source (Am Springbrunnen) for Harp, Op. 23 Eliane Radigue - Musique de notre temps Hania Rani - Buka Ennio Morricone - The Crisis Marcus Miller - Power Cecil Taylor - Unit Structures

I have some good examples for concert music Richard Meyer Soon Hee Newbold Brian Balmages Randall Standridge John Mackey Robert Sheldon Frank Ticheli and much more