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(Originally written for my Substack - welcome to follow me there: https://substack.com/@markoloco95) It is not often I stumble upon music by Johann Sebastian Bach that I had not heard before - especially among his cantatas that I have grown to obsess over. Then came Zerreißet, zersprenget, zertrümmert die Gruft (BWV, 205), a lavishly scored ‘secular’ cantata with the the full might of the baroque orchestra, including three trumpets, timpani, two horns that in the opening chorus come together in such a way that resembles the festive character of his better known celebratory oratorios (his Easter and Christmas Oratorios & the Magnificat in D). My interest soon extended beyond its aesthetic appeal, however. Quite often I read the accompanying commentary to these cantatas to better understand what Bach was depicting exactly, made all the more necessary as a non-German speaker experiencing this music outside of its historical context and ~300 years later (Bach wrote BWV 205 during August 1725). Little did I know that this reading about BWV 205 would lead me down a significant rabbit hole that I now have the pleasure of sharing. The ‘profane’ cantatas Bach himself made no explicit effort to create a systematic taxonomy of his cantatas between the sacred and the secular; this was more a posthumous scholarly construction (his son, CPE Bach, was among the first to do so). Interestingly, the term ‘profane’, I learned, has traditionally been applied to his secular cantatas. A contemporaneous reading of that word may imply something that is anti-religious, blasphemous or morally corrupt - this was indeed my initial impression! Rather, ‘Profane’ comes from the Latin ‘pro fanum’, which originally designated what is ‘outside the temple’ - or outside liturgical or sacred use (Charlton, 1897). Its usage to classify his secular cantatas seems to have emerged only from 1885 - in French criticism - by one René de Récy, who states in his ‘Jean-Sébastien Bach et ses Derniers Biographes’ “une autre composition du maître, celle-là toute profane” (p 415) (another composition by the master, this one entirely profane.) The French Dictionary defines profane as “l'art profane et l'art sacré” (“secular art and sacred art”), and we have no reason to doubt that its usage in French musicological expression principally meant ‘non-liturgical’. Nonetheless, the semantics of the word remains problematic considering its historically recognized extended meaning, stated in the first edition of Dictionnaire de l’Académie française (1694): C'est une action profane & impie" (It is a profane and impious action) While it may seem that I am venturing into unnecessary abstraction, this is important context. The libretto by Picander for BWV 205 is inspired by Greek mythology. How could Bach - whose art has come to embody the pinnacle of divine Christian expression in music- also write music inspired by paganism particularly with the same quality of musical-rhetorical devices that underpin the former? On the use of classical mythology It is true that early Christian writers exercised hostility to worship of pagan deities, maintaining that practice as a falsehood. This extended to use of violence to subdue paganism in parts of Europe (the Northern Crusades, for example). Yet a remarkable amount of pagan culture was preserved through art, often explicitly since the Renaissance. At face value this is contradictory, but can be rationalised. The fact is that many of the christian clerics shaming the pagan cults from antiquity were often themselves inspired by the very writers whose works were imbued with a pagan spirit. The intellectual influence of writers such as Homer, Plato, Virgil, Cicero & Ovid, for example, on Christian Europe remained significant. The answer to this conflict was eventually through the secularisation of the Greco-Roman religions, whose deities came to represent literary figures, allegories and rhetorical symbols. By Bach's time, Christianity had already long appropriated ancient culture as an acceptable and educated symbolic vocabulary for artists to deploy in their craft. History and Text of BWV 205 The cantata was commissioned by the students of Leipzig University in tribute to August Friedrich Müller, a lecturer in philosophy and law at the university. It was apparently performed outdoors near Müller’s house in the Katharinenstraße - many magnificent townhouses were built in the baroque style during the early 18th century on Katharinenstraße and regarded as the most magnificent street in Leipzig. Café Zimmermann on the Katharinenstraße where many of Bach’s secular cantatas were first performed Picander’s libretto depicts a mythological clash centred on Aeolus, the Greek ruler of the winds, and his seasonal release of autumnal storms. He takes the storm episode from Book 1 of Virgil’s Aeneid, in which Juno, wishing to prevent Aeneas from reaching Itality, travels to Aeolia and asks Aeolus to release the winds against the Trojan fleet. In the book, Virgil describes Aeolus as a sovereign ruler who keeps the winds imprisoned inside a vast cavern in Thrace, struggling against their chains and reverberating the mountain. He retains their passions and rage and without his governance, the world would be swept away (Packowski, 2007). The libretto of the opening ‘Chorus of Winds’, with English translation: Zerreißet, zersprenget, zertrümmert die Gruft, Tear up, burst apart, smash to pieces the cave Die unserm Wüten Grenze gibt! that sets limits to our rage! Durchbrechet die Luft, Break through the air Dass selber die Sonne zur Finsternis werde, so that the sun itself may turn to darkness Durchschneidet die Fluten, durchwühlet die Erde, cut through the tides, rage through the earth, Dass sich der Himmel selbst betrübt! so that even heaven is distressed. Aeolus, a Greek god of the wind How Bach Depicts the Winds in the Opening Chorus (Chorus of the Winds) Bach makes extensive use of contrary motion - instrumental lines moving in opposing directions - in the opening chorus. From bar 5, for example: From Bar 5 (violins & viola): 2nd violin and viola descending in thirds against the rising first violin part From bar 16: (flutes and oboes): contrary motion again emphasized, with wind parts moving in opposing directions. From bar 20: more elaborate example imitative counterpoint in the minor, dominated by contrary-motion scalar figuration: the bass, strings, oboes and flutes each play their own contribution to the counterpoint in unison. The effect is a flurry of independent and contrasting motifs, much like the motion of a violent storm. Some 'word painting' highlights The passage contains remarkable word painting, in which the ‘Zerreißet’ (English: tear up) is presented as though torn to pieces through fragmented imitation with staggered entries. Its three syllables are separated into short attacks, interrupted by rests (depicting the winds as scattered and violent) before consolidating into a cadential block. It is also interesting to see the cadence on ‘Gruft’ (denoting the prison or cavern) is set in longer, more stable notes. From Bar 29: ‘Zerreißet’ (tear up) before consolidating into a cadential block Starting with “Durchbrechet die Luft” (“break through the air”), the B section immediately provides a contrast to the earlier fragmented assaults of “Zerreißet”. Here, Bach gives way to a homorhythmic pattern as though perhaps the dispersed winds have now combined into a single current, before descending to a cadence in F minor as the sun turns to darkness. From bar 85: Durchbrechet die Luft, Dass selber die Sonne zur Finsternis werde, (Break through the air so that the sun itself may turn to darkness My final highlight From Bar 102: “Durchschneidet die Fluten, durchwühlet die Erde, Dass sich der Himmel selbst betrübt!” (cut through the tides, rage through the earth, so that even heaven is distressed.) Look at how how Bach treats "Himmel selbst betrübt" ("Heaven is distressed") , here. Bach prepares a cadence in b minor, but on "-trübt" he abruptly shifts to the dominant (f sharp minor). Notably his vocal writing suddenly shifts to a perpetual type of motion, while the continuo retains the rapid scalar motion that maintains the image of turbulent wind. The passage finally closes with an end to the B section in the key of F sharp minor. Together, this f# minor passage is evocative of a mighty storm that gives way to cadential consolidation. And contrasted with the restorative de capo (return to A section) that follows, Bach juxtaposes - almost theatrically - the cosmic consequence of the destructive power of the wind where even the heavens are plunged into distress, and with their original demand to "tear, burst and smash" the cavern containing the winds. Closing remarks From hearing this work for the first time last month, this has evidently become quite a rabbit hole. Notwithstanding Bach's sheer genius in his use of musical rhetoric to depict these classical myths, what's perhaps more interesting his that this rhetoric closely resembles that which he applied in his sacred cantatas. It demonstrates his ability - and indeed willingness and adaptability - to transfer musical-rhetorical techniques between both sacred and secular contexts. Being less familiar with his secular cantatas, for me this has added a new dimension to Bach and which deserves much more exploration. Indeed, it appears that his secular cantatas have received relatively less analytical attention from Bach scholarship, which I suspect has historically been drawn more strongly to the theological and devotional significance of his sacred works. Sources Académie française. (1694). Le dictionnaire de l’académie françoise. Paris, Vve de J.B. Coignard. Internet Archive. https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_VEw4AQAAMAAJ Charlton, L. (1879). A latin dictionary Lewis and short. Internet Archive. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.147309/page/n1459/mode/2up For "Profanes", see Page 1459 Paczkowski, S. (2007). A Polonaise Duet for a Professor, a King and a Merchant: on Cantatas BWV 205, 205a, 216 and 216a by Johann Sebastian Bach. https://www.bachnetwork.org/ub2/paczkowski.pdf Récy, R. de. (1885). JEAN-SEBASTIEN BACH ET SES DERNIERS BIOGRAPHES. Wikisource. https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Jean-Sébastien_Bach_et_ses_derniers_biographes

I don’t think that you—as a composer at this level, as here at the YCF—should try too hard to develop a personal style, since it seems impossible to me to even intend to do so; for, on the one hand, “almost everything” already exists in terms of musical forms, systems, and languages, and on the other hand—even if one of us were the absolute genius who shapes and influences an entire era—he would unfortunately never live to see it, since such groundbreaking developments are usually only recognized decades or even centuries after the composer’s death. With that said, one should not bother much about it, since a personal musical language actually develops almost automatically as long as your composition exercises and works aren’t too “random,” you follow a consistent approach in your work, and try to incorporate only a few influences from different musical styles or languages into your next piece, rather than imitating a specific style in one piece and then switching to the style of a completely different composer or era in the next. After a year of being a member here on the forum and participating in three competitions or events, I think, I could identify some composers based on their “personal style”—for example (this is a very arbitrary list and by no means exhaustive …): @UncleRed99 – famous for the „warmth“ in its pieces, its chord progression and beautiful utilization of woodwinds. @Fruit hunter – very interesting percussion pieces. @Fugax Contrapunctus – everything about fugues and canons in an extremely thorough, intellectual (and even theoretical) way. @HoYin Cheung – mostly atonal pieces, especially for strings. @L.S Barros – influenced by renaissance and baroque, often utilizing brass ensembles and perhaps myself – counterpoint composition technique, voice leading, and mixed with influences from the 20th century, always starting as piano piece, but more and more orchestration examples ... Maybe for one of the next contests, we could make the submissions anonymous and award badges to the reviewers who correctly guess the most composers… (perhaps a silly idea).

Hello everyone! The following post in my formal submission for the 2026 Summer Competition: From Nothing, to Something. Below includes a detailed and extensive explanation of the work, both in inspiration and construction. If you wish to skip, the score PDF and Audio will be found at the end. Thanks and talk to you all soon! [TAKEN FROM SCORE] Plus belle encor votre chère beauté  - Your dear beauty lovelier still Duration: c. 6:08 Written in 2026, Plus belle encor votre chère beauté is a work for piano quartet that evokes summer and the experience of love. It was composed for the “2026 Summer Competition” hosted by The Young Composers Music Forum and is inspired by Paul Verlaine’s poem “Donc, ce sera par un clair jour d’été,” whose opening line may be translated as: “So, on a bright summer day it shall be.” The poem is number nineteen in Verlaine’s collection La Bonne Chanson (The Good Song) Find the French text and translation to the poem here The title of this work is drawn directly from the French text and has similar inspiration as the Gabriel Fauré song from his op. 61 bearing the same name as the Verlaine poem. However, this work takes the title from the fourth line of text, and unlike Fauré, this work is late-romantic in style. The musical inspiration came from two places: Tchaikovsky and his Nutcracker ballet, and a spell of improvisation at the piano. This work was created in late July and early August 2026, and during that time, I was experimenting with modal improvisation, and felt drawn to G-lydian. Specifically, the ivø7 chord you can build and find in Tchaikovsky’s music. It was also around this time I was listening to parts of the Nutcracker, where I felt drawn to the idea of harp-writing, and thus, during a period of improvisation, the foundation of this work came to be. With structure, Plus belle encor votre chère beauté is in ternary (A-B-A’) form and includes an intro and coda. The B-section acts as our development while the outer A-sections are comprised of a smaller AABA form. The principal theme stated in the A-section occurs throughout the work, where it can be heard in the introduction, coda and within the development where the piano states the principal theme in inversion. Lastly, I composed this work following the end of a relationship. In short, this work evokes those unspoken emotions I harbored and the romance I long to have one day. A day where I too can say “Your dear beauty.” PERSONAL NOTE: For me, the connection to this text, and now to this piece of music, is very personal. By the time this post goes live, my last relationship, of more than a year, ended a month ago. I will leave my thoughts on the matter with this: while rare in occurrence, being in the throes of thought can make the weight of longing feel immeasurable. However, amidst the satin and silk, this piece came to life. To add some fun for the competition, and incase people worry the music is not playable, I can assure you everything on the page works and is practical. However, better to put money where my playing is. A few hours before posting, I decided to record myself playing the work and trying out things. I originally improvised it on piano and this was one of the few times I tried to mimic what is on the page. It is not 1-to-1 and I made certain liberties in performance, however, this was fun to do! (This YouTube video is not my official audio entry for this competition. MP3 for score can be found below. Also, my camera was not in focus during the take... grrr) Thanks for reading, and I hope you enjoy! (The art on the cover page is Claude Monet's "Woman with a Parasol." A wonderful piece of art!) AUDIO_YourDearBeauty.mp3 SCORE_YourDearBeauty.pdf

Thank you all for the feedback! The past couple of days have been busy, so I’m only just getting around to responding. On the choice of key @Luis Hernández I did consider transposing the piece to E minor to make it more comfortable for the musicians. Ultimately, I decided against it because I think the key contributes to the harmonic “color”—something that becomes even more significant in orchestration. Speaking from a string player’s perspective, the reduced resonance from open strings and the frequent need for vibrato help reinforce the piece’s somber, melancholic mood. There are also contrasting sections that modulate to more string-friendly keys, such as G major. In those passages, I use open strings and natural harmonics to make the contrast more pronounced. @Alex Weidmann , speaking as a semi-professional string player, I’d say it’s definitely playable. That said, it’s an uncommon orchestral key and creates plenty of intonation challenges for the ensemble. I can also confirm from experience that orchestral players generally aren’t too thrilled when they see a key signature with five or more flats or sharps! Orchestration choices Thank you for the detailed feedback, @Luis Hernández I agree that I may have written the English horn parts a little too high in places. Honestly, if I’d had the option, I might have scored the piece for two English horn players, since the instrument’s tone and timbre fit the atmosphere so well. Strangely, I’ve never been especially fond of writing two oboe parts—but maybe that’s just me. You’re probably right about bars 52–53. My intention was to thin out the upper octaves so that the viola-and-cello octave line would come through more clearly, with the upper voices adding a kind of “shine” to it. In a live performance, I think it could work reasonably well, depending on the strength of the flute players. I’ve been using Dorico since Finale went bust. I used its automatic condensing feature for this score, but I’m not always happy with the choices it makes. I usually go back and manually condense or uncondense the parts, but I didn’t have time to do that for this piece.

@CrystalCanon I think the current landscape of academic music is complicated. On the one hand, the few major venues that remain play it safe and, yes, every now and then, they programme something from the 20th century. Contemporary composers are rarely programmed, and often these are commissions that result in a premiere and little else, with a few exceptions. Ideally, more opportunities should be given to this contemporary music. Another issue concerns composers who build their careers within a closed environment such as music academies or conservatoires, where they have access to musicians to perform their works. As for the idea of learning from all sources and styles, that’s only logical. But it strikes me that many people have little or no interest in listening to, let alone learning how, other styles work. What strikes me even more are those who, when writing music, limit themselves to imitating very specific periods, whilst showing no interest in anything else. And I also agree with your final point. Each person’s preferences influence their objective compositional style. I, for example, thoroughly enjoy the Baroque, the style galant and Romanticism, though I’m less keen on Classicism. And I’ve studied everything from the Renaissance right through to rotational matrices… Yet my preference is for the modern language of music, from Impressionism onwards. In order to start doing something in that vein, I’ve had to spend a long time learning (with great pleasure) about tonal music, and I still enjoy it to this day.

A question Do you think that any piano piece, for example, could be adapted for an orchestral version? Or perhaps there are certain formats or styles that wouldn’t work well in this context? Please feel free to give examples Best regards

Hi everyone, This is my latest piano composition that I wrote. I'm very happy with how it turned out. Hope you enjoy listening!

I’ll share something a little different. I’m a big fan of L'Arpeggiata, an ensemble led by Christina Pluhar, in particular their latin jazz inspired interpretations of works by Henry Purcell. For this they collaborated with the brilliant countertenor Phillipe Jaroussky. It’s great, and i love how adaptable they are to reinterpret baroque music in this more contemporary idiom. I’ll link one of my favorites from this album:

I appreciate the comments! I wish to provide my thoughts/ reasoning on the string parts: The passage of octaves near the end is no exception to the octave passages that came before it. The triple stops you mentioned are actually quadruple stops (count the "and" of each beat as well). I took the notes and hand position in that moment straight from the Samuel Adler book of orchestration, which had a chart of common voicings for double, triple and quadruple stops during the section on the violin. Thus, while it may add a slight challenge in context, the feasibility of the part is trivial to the greater repertoire of violin and string writing. With the viola, I am aware of the challenge with the choreography of the player, specifically with the bow positioning. However, in the greater context of the piece, it only happens for 8 measures out of 144. To add, the pizzicato part is written to only be played on the G and D strings of the viola (II-III). Thus, the right hand can stay in one place to pluck (whether it's one or two fingers), while the left hand holds a hand position of a 6th, 5th and 3rd across both strings. All in all, while the bow may be placed in their hand, it is feasible. Thanks again!

review: you dear beauty lovelier still. this is my general effect review: I think this definitely and clearly fits the definition that you tried put on the theme. Not in a bad way, but in a neutral way this feels like a love song nothing wrong with that, but that’s why I took it as. The instrumentation sounds good and even the samples sound much better. The string samples I use I have to physically mark each 16th note for a separated run instead of it sounding all the lagato and sloppy. what you used sounds really nice and of course the piano writing sounds fantastic and I see some of that improvisatory sections inside of the piece as transitioning material. The runs also sound very solid as well. I definitely felt some Lydian elements in there too, so that affect was achieved well About playability let me get the very defendable stuff out the way A. Be careful with the octaves near the end with the violin again this is something very defendable as that a mature violin player with a good amount of experience could do that. It’s just something that could be tricky for someone trying to learn it. The triple stops are possible, just in succession. They may be a little tricky to get right. B. about the Pizzacato with the Viola, this is something that may seem a little more tricky/something that I may be more concerned about as well. I feel like with a bunch of actually looking at it and planning this could be done with a good amount of intense practice, but logistically speaking, you would have to use a similar technique to a harp holding a bow on top of that just makes it a little more messy. Also, the direction of the strings this goes in, also requires the use of more than one finger. anyways, other than that, those are just my gripes this is a really good piece and it fits very well with the theme so with that I enjoyed this one a lot also a nice work with the cover art as always, also thank you for your review on my entry. Definitely helped a lot. melody: 9.5 harmony: 9.7 structuring and development: 8.6 originality: 7 engraving: 10 execution:10 taste: 9.7 average 9.21

That’s absolutely true. It all depends on what we mean by ‘personal style’ (or simply ‘style’). One thing is clear: everyone tries to find the language, the techniques, the systems, etc., that suit them best, and to write music within that framework. But I don’t think anyone on this forum can claim to have a personal style that makes them unique and distinctive. That doesn’t mean there aren’t excellent composers. In fact, on the current scene, I don’t know of any composers who have that sort of style. I know of plenty of music that’s based on previous stories, and it’s brilliant.

Hello @CrystalCanon, I noticed with appreciation that you’ve thoroughly read my last two posts and thus noticed the contradiction between what I said here in this thread—that one shouldn’t “try too hard to develop a personal style”—on the one hand, and my “recipe for a personal style” in the second post, on the other. But to be honest, I didn’t mean that ironically. Perhaps, however, I misunderstood what is meant by “style.” If “personal style” is defined as how one is perceived or recognized as a composer by “others” (e.g., the audience), then I wouldn’t worry too much about it, since one has little or no influence over that. On the other hand, I think it’s important to develop a “consistent approach” or a “recipe” that you feel comfortable with when composing, and that allows you to create your pieces successfully. That’s the kind of “personal style” I mentioned in my other post. But perhaps this is somewhat different from the ideas summarized and discussed in this thread—wouldn’t it be worth for an own topic?

ON PASTEL SKIES - REVIEW Melodies Themes Motives Harmony Chords Textures Form Development Structure Time Originality Creativity Score Presentation Instrumentation Orchestration Playability Execution of Given Challenge Taste 4 9 5 8 3 6 9 9 Total score: 53/80 Average Score: 6.625 Review: Attached is a PDF of my comments. They were too lengthy for me to write in a single comment on YCF and I hope you find them helpful. The score above does not reflect the extent of my comments and by no means do I write anything to be addressed personally. Good job on this work! F. Hunter_Notes.pdf

The main thing I struggle with when writing art song, is that the singer has a limited range. I think in art song it is very important to have a harmonic idea of your poems first. Then creating a melody around that. The piano does 90% of the work and the voice should get the credit. As a singer, I truly think the best art song has most phrases within the range of a 5th. From phrase to phrase you can shift this around, but the more rangey it gets, the needlessly difficult it gets. If the poem is contemplative I would hold this as a strong guideline. But if it's angry, or disjunt, maybe not worry so much. This isn't to say that anything will be bad if written this way, but it makes it harder to execute. Also do you have a baritone in mind? Here is a piece that conveys what I think is important: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeXlTfC7MVM Most of the phrases are quite narrow for the voice, this allows the voice to navigate their difficult "passagios" Also notice how as the piece gets more intense, so does the range. And pay attention to how softly the pianist is playing throughout. It should be noted that this is a VERY difficult piece for voice. Specifically the closer you get to the end. Long phrases, short breaths, extensive range, lots of dynamic variety and high soft singing. The only reason its popular is because its so pretty. However the piece is subjected to pretty much only professional singers because of its difficulty. German Lied, is much more text driven. Generally a German Lied cycle has a lot of variety and color changes, as it was expected back then. So often times in a cylcle, piece are exaggerated in their color as much as possible. Sometimes I get annoyed at German lieder for not staying in the moment long enough, in attempt to create variety, but they are the world famous composers and I serve food to people. So getting into tonality. https://youtu.be/gHGYmV0frnw?si=H3MTNlnYh6iqUtvM Previn is always a favorite example of mine. Its tonal, but never the same tone. Listen to how the piano completely shifts from texture to texture in order to convey emotions, and prepares the next phrase. This poem is very complex, but the piano and voice work together to make it fathomable. Previn switches from between three primary textures, wide complex chords, high dissonant/poignant chords, and flourishes. Each represents a specific feeling. I think the wide chords express the "setting" of the poem, the natural feel. These are about 50% of the piece. The high dissonant chords have a feeling disappointment, while the flourishes express child-like hope. Also worth noting, this piece is really hard to sing. He never "preps" the singer with a pitch, making it incredibly difficult to find a pitch, even a augmented 2nd is difficult to find. I'm not big into non-tonal music so I can't help you much in that realm, but I think look at berg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_7OHTr400 He's just my favorite in the not-tonal world. As someone who has sung a few atonal works, and others on the cusp, my main ask is: please make exceptions to your tonal rules, to allow the words to have their impact. Art song exists to create the worlds in which poetry exists. If the poem has to be forced by the singer, it is not a good art song.

OK I think this is the best reason for maintaining the key. In other words, doing so with that conscious intention, as in the examples from the repertoire. I use Dorico too, but I’ve been using it ever since version 1 came out. I used to use Finale as well, but I never liked it, so I switched. I now consider myself an ‘expert’ in quite a few areas, though not so much in others because they don’t interest me. The condensing feature is brilliant, but sometimes you drive yourself mad trying to work out why something hasn’t been condensed. The programme still has some bugs in this respect. Best regards.

Hello @Alex Weidmann, Congratulations on this fantastic-sounding orchestration of this beautiful piano piece! Even though I’m more familiar with pieces for solo piano and am just at the beginning of my “orchestration career,” I have to admit that the orchestrated version is calmer and gentler than the piano original, where the difficulty of the piece remains perceivable, even in a professional recording. Having an entire orchestra „at its disposal“ gives the chance to create seamless transitions between the various passages and moods from one instrument to another, and – as I’m now also experimenting with orchestration examples, I’m always astonished how well the different instruments blend together, even though they have such distinct timbres on their own. This is a very interesting topic. Having arpeggios in a piano piece tempts one to utilize the harp for that passages. But as Luis demonstrated in his fantastic example, this can be achieved in a more natural way for the orchestra by distributing the arpeggio among several different instruments. However, the „arpeggios“ in this Elegy are real slow (in eight notes), somewhat more in a kind of „broken chords“ which are even written out in full in the original piano score. But what to do if arpeggios in the piano piece are “faster”—that is, block chords preceded by the arpeggio symbol, played the way a harpsichordist would (i.e., with a gap of 32nd or even 64th notes between each note of the chord)? I struggled with that problem in my own orchestration example, in which I tried to achieve the arpeggiated piano texture by distributing it among pizzicato strings, sometimes percussions (vibraphone and glockenspiel), while also retaining much of the original piano notes for the harp. In a „second layer“, the voice leading was then „doubled“ by the remaining „singing“ instruments (woodwinds, brass and some violins). Concerning the usability of the key of E-flat minor for an orchestra, there have been interesting discussions in this thread (and also here in@danishali903 ‘s Nocturne No. 1 in E Flat Minor by Gabriel Fauré (Orchestrated) https://www.youngcomposers.com/t50225/nocturne-no-1-in-e-flat-minor-by-gabriel-faur%C3%A9-orchestrated/ ). The arguments that transposing the piece could make it more playable—for example, for string instruments—cannot be dismissed out of hand. However, as long as there is no actual performance, I would hesitate to transpose the piece to D minor or even E minor. Although there are no longer any physical characteristics distinguishing the various keys since the introduction of the equal-temperament system we use today, there is nevertheless a strong historical and psychological connection between certain moods and their respective keys, a connection that has been “followed” and repeated by numerous composers over the past few centuries, especially in the romantic era. One can even go back to Bach’s Welltempered Clavier where we have the wonderful E-flat minor prelude (in the first book) which is a perfect example for the mood of a „Nocturne“ or „Elegy“, whereas the pieces in E minor are much more „harsh“ and therefore bear the absolute contrasting characteristics. Wieland

That’s true. Although I’m not sure what implications there are in music being a form of communication. I believe that music is, if anything, a metaphorical language. But the meaning of what it might convey is highly subjective. I certainly don’t believe that innovation has to come through new sounds or things like that. The expansion of the expressive techniques of many instruments has already been fully explored. I was referring more to innovation in terms of style, defined as the set of visual, technical and formal features that characterise a work, an artist or an entire artistic movement. And it is far more difficult to create a new language. As such, I believe there have been very few: modal music centred on a single note, tonal music centred on the triad, and, shall we say, the liberation from that centre in its many expressions. But who knows.

Hi guys! I think there are different levels to "personal style." There’s the kind often seen in pop music—a style defined by the individual artist or the band itself—and then there’s the kind @Luis Hernández is referring to: a personal style that carries significant influence. In the 21st century, we see plenty of that first type—original, personal styles—and I personally enjoy listening to them. Artists like Nils Frahm, Boards of Canada, and GoGo Penguin come to mind. Perhaps the reason we aren't seeing the kind of unprecedented, revolutionary shifts that occurred in the 20th century is simply because music has fragmented into so many different genres. That said, I believe new and innovative works are still being created within each of those genres. We have such an incredible array of equipment and techniques available today that, depending on how you combine them, it’s certainly possible to create fresh, novel music. Though, I have to admit, I show absolutely no signs of doing that myself, haha. The topic of "random elements" is also fascinating. You could probably incorporate randomness into a piece by using a DAW that utilizes mathematical formulas for randomization. If you used that to establish rules for sound placement, for instance, you might be able to generate a different piece of music every time using just a single formula. Since the turn of the 21st century, we haven't really seen anyone who represents a paradigm shift in music, but I’m sure someone will emerge eventuallyーand I certainly hope to live long enough to see it happen! Best, Lithl.

on pastel skies was “commissioned” (more in this case called for) by the young composers 2026 summer competition fit this team after a poem about the serene atmosphere of the Midsummer afternoon So, on a bright summer day it shall be: The great sun, my partner in joy, Shall make, amid the satin and the silk, Your dear beauty lovelier still; The sky, all blue, like a tall canopy, Shall quiver sumptuously in the long folds Above our two happy brows, grown pale With pleasure and expectancy; And when evening comes, the breeze shall be soft And play caressingly about your veils, And the peaceful stars looking down Shall smile benevolently on man and wife. The gestation of this piece (initial thought, even before the entry of the first note) was an image of a dreamy Florida sunset over the Gulf of Mexico with this image the piece will transport you to another dimension of into the pastel pink, orange, and red opalescent skies instrumentation xylophone (doubling on glockenspiel and crotales, /w large zill bell attachment vibraphone I /w sus and Z.bell and dull metallic object (something like a Burma bell) vibraphone II /w sus and Z.bell and dull metallic object (something like a Burma bell) Marimba I /w sus and temple blocks Marimba II /w Chimes, sus and temple blocks and large, vibrating drum ( tom or surdo ect.) On Pastel Skies.mp3 On Pastel Skies.pdf

When it comes to personal style, as a composer, it is hard to describe what that style would be. Yes, I compose ensemble pieces (rather solo or chamber) or full orchestra, too. However, period style is not going to be same. The term best fits me is "polystylist". This means I could possibly write in different styles. For instance, my Halloween piece was written for string quartet but the style 20th century. (note; I could have written a serialism written for that competition...). Currently, I working piece that sounds neo classical for the next competition. Joe Hirashi was the inspiration for the piece. My personal taste is open book. Heck. George Leigti works are always fun to listen to. And who does not want to listen a post tonal composition that has clusters and other modern jazz. :) The problem is...midi can not play back alerotical boxes and clusters. Only live musicians can. Thus, that is what trying figure out, next. How to have play back in score. (maybe use a daw?)

Hi everyone! This small collection of pieces I wrote that explores the concept of the lullaby from different perspectives: -The first piece uses more active and independent voices while still preserving the gentle character of a lullaby. -The second takes a more traditional approach, focusing on simplicity and a singable melody. -The third explores a more dreamy and suspended atmosphere, aiming to capture the feeling of drifting into sleep. -The fourth takes a darker direction, attempting to evoke sadness and longing through a slow, hypnotic atmosphere. Timestamps: 00:00 Lullaby I 01:05 Lullaby II 01:55 Lullaby III 03:30 The Last Lullaby YouTube link Score Once again I would like to thank you for giving me your time and valuable feedback that keeps me going and improving everyday! I couldn't be happier that I discovered this forum! Lullaby G Major.mp3 Lullaby in F Major.mp3 Lullaby in F Minor.mp3 Lullaby C Major.mp3 Lullaby C Major.pdf Lullaby G Major.pdf Lullaby in F Major.pdf Lullaby in F Minor.pdf

I wrote a movement in sonata form where all of the phrases in the exposition and development are prime numbers in length in terms of measures. Primes.mp3 Primes.pdf

I listened to your piece and I admire your stamina and commitment in writing such a lengthy movement! However, I don't feel that its length is completely earned. A sonata form of 420 bars needs a really strong main idea if it's to retain the listener's attention and interest. Your folksy melody was pleasant, but if it were up to me, my first thought wouldn't have been to expand it into a large sonata-allegro form. I also noted a sort of meandering quality to your lines that came from long phrases without a clear beginning or end. I think it's typically a good idea to write for string instruments in a similar way as one might write for voices or winds. Of course, strings have unique capabilities, but both the musicians and listeners will appreciate giving them space to "breathe." Chamber music especially, regardless of the musical language, is most naturally structured like a conversation. I am also not sure that pandiatonicism is a good fit for sonata form without extra structural support. It's one of my preferred harmonic palettes, but without the "directionality" of functional tonality—or a rigorous approach to motives and pitch-class sets—it has the potential to sound a bit aimless. Since sonata form is essentially a teleological (goal-oriented) narrative, that directionality needs to be provided through other means, such as striking pitch contours, rhythmic drive, or strong motivic contrasts. As for the meter, I typically wouldn’t write a sonata form in 6/8, because of its lighter “dance” associations. But I’m sure it’s been done. So all things considered, I would advise you to pursue greater concision in your presentation of ideas and find ways to articulate the structure of your piece more clearly on multiple levels. I am curious about what your creative process was for the movement: did you begin by planning the sections at a high level, or did you work mostly from beginning to end as you went? It's all part of the process of finding your own voice. We're all in it with you! Good luck with your composing, and I'm eager to see where your creativity takes you!

Hello @TristanTheTristan! So, you’ve fixed the clipping issue, right? If so—yes, it certainly seems to be resolved, and the sound is so good! The absence of clipping really gives it a sense of polish and attention to detail. By the way, upon listening to it again, I felt that the pizzicato sound starting around the 3:10 mark could use a little adjustment. It sounds a bit unnatural to me as it is; what do you think? Perhaps one shouldn't expect perfection from playback, but I think it’s worth a quick fix when you have some spare time :) This is a great work! Best, Lithl.

Listen to Freedom's Everlasting Hegemony for String Sextet by 신성음악 on #SoundCloud https://on.soundcloud.com/2nx6OyR8tbRUgRhsiH

@Luis Hernández Thank you so much for listening and for the feedback! Totally get where you're coming from! While writing these, I kept trying to maintain fairly strict counterpoint, but I found that when both voices became too active, the music started losing some of the calmness I wanted from a lullaby. So in several places I made the second voice more of a harmonic support rather than an equally independent contrapuntal voice. I also found that stepwise motion was really important for the sense of calmness I was going for. So sometimes i prioritized that over strict counterpoint, which led to some of the parallels you noticed. I probably could have found a better balance between the two! And again thanks so much for listening!

I’ve listened to two of them; I’ll listen to the others later. The one in C strikes me as almost perfect. It’s harmonious and has that lullaby feel to it. I just think the two-part section from bar 23 onwards has a sequence of parallel fourths that I’m not entirely keen on. I think what you’re trying to do is complete the chord. The other one sounds less like a lullaby, but I think it suffers from something similar. At certain cadential points, there are successive fourths (doubled, at that) which don’t quite sit right with me in this sort of piece. The thing is, in something so delicate, with such pure lines and drawing on the legacy of counterpoint, all this stands out a bit.

I completely agree with this. The thing is, when you’re learning, I think it’s good to explore and delve into a wide range of styles, given that we now have the resources to do so. Of course, it’s a process that, depending on each person’s circumstances, may never end. I think the level of commitment plays a big part here. A professional composer is not in the same boat as people who compose as a hobby (and do so whenever they can). Honestly, as I’m in that second group, I don’t think I’ll ever have time in my life to define a narrow circle of influence. That doesn’t mean, however, that when I set out to write something, I do so within a framework I’ve defined beforehand.

"Meandering Up and down".......................... that made me laugh out loud , or should i say LOL ?

LoL .. I really don't know and can't say. The judges at these things could be much stricter than our community here on Young Composers. Your rhythms - you have a characteristic way of meandering up and down and you can't resist the inclusion of occasional triplets LoL

Hi @UncleRed99 ! I think it's a very nice and sonically pleasing work! The inclusion of Taps in the piece (albeit with liberal artistic license) enriches the message of the piece being a dedication to those who died on D-Day (probably the most gruesome and intense engagement in WWII). I think I could compare you to Brahms in a way, because Brahms in his harmonic structuring of his pieces was so dependent on 3rds and 6ths (something he also had in common with Percy Grainger). Your music on the other hand is very suspension-heavy, constantly creating those major and minor 2nds that rub and resolve pleasantly to major or minor sonorities. I think you should be weary of this however, since this style of writing for brass is very common in the DCI (Drum Corps International) universe and doesn't win you points for originality, creativity or style. Although I would argue that you do have a certain personal style that is recognizable. Thanks for sharing!

. with me changes, I usually have those as suggestions the ensembles I have been with useing mallet instruments we had mallet bags which allowed us to drop stuff in and quickly pull stuff out With the octaves, I think that’s just purely for texture reasons sometimes I’ll have a single player use an octave grip with runs sometimes

Hi @Luis Hernández! In principle, I think you could adapt any piano work for an orchestra using a DAW. That said, there are certainly some that would be incredibly difficult, take Conlon Nancarrow’s Study No. 40a, for instance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXd-I_7XBoY That one might be almost impossible, don't you think? (Haha) Ultimately, piano works originally composed for player pianos might not be well-suited for orchestral adaptation. The same likely applies to piano pieces with an extremely sparse number of notes. Even if it were possible, the real question is whether the orchestration adds any value, whether it actually "works" or not. By the way, your arrangement of Schoenberg’s Six Little Pieces for Piano, Op. 19 was really good! I didn't comment on the specific topic because I don't feel qualified to offer advice on orchestration. However, I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed it! Best, Lithl.

As a listener ... just a fun piece! Mark

A very effective and engaging orchestration ... it possesses a well rounded tonal balance with interesting color. Nice work. Mark

Alex, Please aware that in measure 6 you have a slur in pp in the Oboe going to the B - Bb the Oboe's lowest note. Not a problem usually, however, at that dynamic level it might not work. At measure 16 you have the Oboe at the high F and G.... I don't see the benefit here at all. Not really recommended unless it is an avant garde work. In both cases the Oboist will not be happy with the orchestration. Mark

The truth is, it’s a surprising, original and captivating piece. Two things strike me – though they’re more questions than anything else, as my experience with percussion is very, very limited. One is the speed with which the percussionist changes instruments (or mallets). Sometimes it seems to happen in ‘zero time’. Is that possible? I suppose it must be down to the layout of the instruments and the mallets? The other is that in many sections the vibraphones and marimbas play in unison or an octave apart – is this due to the acoustic volume of the instruments? It sometimes sounds a bit overloaded, but I imagine that’s down to the virtual instrument as well. It’s certainly a very good lesson on percussion. As for the connection with the poem, well, I don’t know – I’m one of those who think that music doesn’t describe anything. To me, it sounds lively and cheerful, and, in a way, the instruments do remind me of a sunset on the coast. The score is explained very well.

@Luis Hernández I also own Cecil book. His humor is rather intelligent. But at the time it was written, the alto flute was inaptly named bass flute. now, we both there is actual bass flute. So this is not correct naming. unlike Adler, he miss places other woods in brass section section. Again this is error on his part.

@Kvothe @Henry Ng Tsz Kiu THANK YOU I’m going to try and get hold of a copy of Adler’s treatise… I have a lesser-known little book by Cecil Forsyth (‘Orchestration’) which is a good complement because it covers the history of each instrument, why and how they came to be as they are, amongst other things. As for counterpoint… it’s a controversial topic and warrants a separate thread. In any case, when you haven’t followed a formal musical education and career path, as is my case – I do everything out of passion – at certain points or moments a good teacher is essential. Someone who’s a good educator, who can guide you directly. That gives you the wings to carry on on your own. I’ve turned to this professional ‘help’ at critical moments: When I decided to study tonal and modal harmony in depth. When I decided to delve into 20th-century compositional techniques. When I decided to understand and apply counterpoint in any style. And right now… with orchestration. Long live music!!

I don’t think innovation has to go hand in hand with formal training. I do think that any kind of training is beneficial. What I find challenging at the moment is the very act of innovating. And that’s not a bad thing. There’s enough material and musical languages out there to do millions of things. Throughout the 20th century, I believe there have indeed been many movements and composers who have explored, innovated and pushed boundaries, many of whom have left behind their own musical languages. Ives + Cowell, Schoenberg, Bartók, Messiaen, Cage, Ligeti, … right up to Pärt and Rautavaara. Minimalism… But since the latter part of the 20th century, I don’t think there has been any significant innovation. Perhaps in this day and age, innovation will have to come hand in hand with new technologies and sciences: Symbiosis with artificial intelligence: perhaps the composer could train a musical language model using their own works to generate variations with which to engage in real-time dialogue. The creation of mutable works (soundtracks, etc.) that never sound the same twice, adapting to factors relating to the listener. Perhaps some kind of microtonal system might re-emerge in the future?

Having read the review of the trumpet in F, I think it refers to a natural trumpet. It’s the same as with the French horn. Before the 19th century, these instruments were not chromatic. They were only capable of playing a natural scale. That is why there were horns in D, G, etc., depending on how they were constructed. This entailed significant limitations, particularly from today’s perspective. And that is why they took longer to be incorporated into the symphonic repertoire. In the 19th century, horns and trumpets evolved to incorporate the modern mechanisms of valves, etc., and became as we know them today. I believe that in such situations, one should look for another instrument where the register is comfortable.

I did find this webpage on F trumpets: Robb Stewart Brass InstrumentsOrchestral F Trumpet History — Robb Stewart Brass Instrum...Apparently they were very popular in the 1800s; but it says they're basically extinct today!

Now that I think about it, I used to march in a drum and bugle corps and all of our instruments were in G, even though such horns were usually also very rare. I marched with a G Mellophone which was basically a G Marching French Horn. The Trumpets were called G Sopranos and the Trombones and Tubas were just called G Tenors and G Contras. So I'm sure there exists every kind of instrument and tuning imaginable, somewhere.

My bad! 😁

There is no such thing as an F Trumpet! LoL .. There's Bb Trumpet, Eb Cornet, C Trumpet, etc. But if you want a lower, F version of a trumpet you'd probably want a Flugelhorn! Although, I just looked it up on google and it says that F Trumpets and Flugelhorns do exist but are very rare.

Thanks Henry! It's actually by Debussy; not Fauré. (I think Luis mentioned Fauré because their music is of the same era, and has some common traits.) I'd probably have to use an F trumpet rather than a B flat trumpet or cornet? Not an expert in trumpets though! Alex

I started this few years ago and posted a couple pieces of this suite before. I had intended to finish it but set it aside and hadn't worked on it in a while. I finally cam back to it a few weeks ago and decided to finish it. It's based on the Hans Christian Anderson story of the Steadfast Tin Soldier. My goal was to write each piece in 3/4 timing, as I don't often use that timing and to keep each piece to less than 4 minutes (thought the finale is just over 5 minutes). I included a description for each piece to describe the action. I. The Tin Soldiers Play War There were once twenty-five tin soldiers, born of the same old spoon. The little boy lined them up together, all splendid in their uniforms of red and blue. They all looked the same, except one. He looked a little different as he had been cast last of all. The tin was short and, in turn, so was he. But there he stood, as steady as his brethren. The little boy marched them around the table, clashing them together and making booms like cannons and musket fire. II. The Paper Ballerina’s Dance He lined them up to protect the model castle and the other small toy figures inside. One of those was a little paper ballerina, with a fluffy gauze skirt and a glistening jewel around her neck. The little tin soldier thought to himself, “I would so love for her to be my wife, but maybe she’s too grand for me. She lives in a castle, and I have only a little box that I share with twenty-four other soldiers.” He hid behind a little box, steadfastly watching her as the other soldiers continued to play. III. The Soldier and the Ballerina’s Pas de Deux When night came and the children went to bed, the toys came to life and began to play on their own. The little tin soldier moved toward the ballerina and offered his hand. To his surprise, she did not reject it; she clasped his hand, and the two began to dance. As they whirled around the table, they looked into each other’s eyes and knew they had found their true love. IV. The Jealous Goblin But in the shadows lurked the goblin who lived in the jack-in-a-box, and he was not pleased with what he saw. For he thought the ballerina belonged to him and did not appreciate this newcomer taking his place. He approached the soldier and said, “Keep your eyes and hands to yourself.” He pushed at him, but the tin soldier stood stiffly in his spot. As the goblin stalked away, he said, “Just what till tomorrow!” V. The Soldier Falls from the Window The next day, maybe by chance or maybe because of the goblin, the little soldier ended up on the open window ledge. Whether it was a gust of wind or a goblin spell, the little soldier fell three stories to the ground, landing between the paving stones. VI. The Journey on the Paper Boat He lay there all night till two boys found him and placed him on a little boat and sent him sailing down the river. The little soldier thought about his dear ballerina and if he would ever see her again. The stream began to move faster and faster, carrying him toward the drain to the sewer. VII. The Escape from the Sewer Rats The tin soldier found himself floating through the sewer. Suddenly, a group of rats came toward the water, demanding that the little soldier pay a toll for passing through their land. They scurried around to find debris to throw at the boat. The little soldier tried to steer the boat around them, but it led him into a fast-moving tunnel and through a drain that led out to sea. The boat turned over and the soldier fell into the water. VIII. The Fish and the Surprise Inside Before he could sink to the bottom, a passing fish swallowed him and the little soldier found himself in the fish’s belly. He moved back and forth as the fish swam. All of a sudden, the fish began to move wildly and then fell still. He then heard loud noises coming from outside before turning quiet. A knife suddenly cut through the fish’s belly and before the little soldier stood his former master’s cook. He had miraculously found his way home. IX. The Reunion and the Fireplace The little soldier stood on the table, his paint worn off, but he still stood as stiff as ever. Across the table, he saw his ballerina, his love that he thought he would never see again. His heart was filled with so much regret for the time together they had missed. But lurking in the shadow was the wicked little goblin. He would not let the little tin soldier take his girl away. Maybe by chance or maybe it was the goblin, but one of the children picked up the soldier and threw him into the fire. The goblin danced in delight of his victory, but suddenly a gust of wind blew the paper ballerina into the fire with the soldier. The next morning, when the fire had died out. The maid saw in the ashes a tiny tin heart, and at the center was the jewel that the ballerina wore. Joined together, as one. 14 The Tin Soldier's Play War.mp3 15 The Paper Ballerina's Dance.mp3 16 The Soldier and the Ballerina's Pas de Deux.mp3 17 The Jealous Goblin.mp3 18 The Soldier Falls From the Window.mp3 19 The Journey on the Paper Boat.mp3 20 The Escape from the Sewer Rats.mp3 21 The Fish and the Surprising Dinner.mp3 22 The Reunion and the Fireplace.mp3

Why hello everyone! I think I am early to the party. :) Below you will find my entry to competition. Summer's Day: YC Summer competition - Chamber Music - Young Composers Music Forum