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Thank you all for the feedback! The past couple of days have been busy, so I’m only just getting around to responding. On the choice of key @Luis Hernández I did consider transposing the piece to E minor to make it more comfortable for the musicians. Ultimately, I decided against it because I think the key contributes to the harmonic “color”—something that becomes even more significant in orchestration. Speaking from a string player’s perspective, the reduced resonance from open strings and the frequent need for vibrato help reinforce the piece’s somber, melancholic mood. There are also contrasting sections that modulate to more string-friendly keys, such as G major. In those passages, I use open strings and natural harmonics to make the contrast more pronounced. @Alex Weidmann , speaking as a semi-professional string player, I’d say it’s definitely playable. That said, it’s an uncommon orchestral key and creates plenty of intonation challenges for the ensemble. I can also confirm from experience that orchestral players generally aren’t too thrilled when they see a key signature with five or more flats or sharps! Orchestration choices Thank you for the detailed feedback, @Luis Hernández I agree that I may have written the English horn parts a little too high in places. Honestly, if I’d had the option, I might have scored the piece for two English horn players, since the instrument’s tone and timbre fit the atmosphere so well. Strangely, I’ve never been especially fond of writing two oboe parts—but maybe that’s just me. You’re probably right about bars 52–53. My intention was to thin out the upper octaves so that the viola-and-cello octave line would come through more clearly, with the upper voices adding a kind of “shine” to it. In a live performance, I think it could work reasonably well, depending on the strength of the flute players. I’ve been using Dorico since Finale went bust. I used its automatic condensing feature for this score, but I’m not always happy with the choices it makes. I usually go back and manually condense or uncondense the parts, but I didn’t have time to do that for this piece.

@CrystalCanon I think the current landscape of academic music is complicated. On the one hand, the few major venues that remain play it safe and, yes, every now and then, they programme something from the 20th century. Contemporary composers are rarely programmed, and often these are commissions that result in a premiere and little else, with a few exceptions. Ideally, more opportunities should be given to this contemporary music. Another issue concerns composers who build their careers within a closed environment such as music academies or conservatoires, where they have access to musicians to perform their works. As for the idea of learning from all sources and styles, that’s only logical. But it strikes me that many people have little or no interest in listening to, let alone learning how, other styles work. What strikes me even more are those who, when writing music, limit themselves to imitating very specific periods, whilst showing no interest in anything else. And I also agree with your final point. Each person’s preferences influence their objective compositional style. I, for example, thoroughly enjoy the Baroque, the style galant and Romanticism, though I’m less keen on Classicism. And I’ve studied everything from the Renaissance right through to rotational matrices… Yet my preference is for the modern language of music, from Impressionism onwards. In order to start doing something in that vein, I’ve had to spend a long time learning (with great pleasure) about tonal music, and I still enjoy it to this day.

(Originally written for my Substack - welcome to follow me there: https://substack.com/@markoloco95) It is not often I stumble upon music by Johann Sebastian Bach that I had not heard before - especially among his cantatas that I have grown to obsess over. Then came Zerreißet, zersprenget, zertrümmert die Gruft (BWV, 205), a lavishly scored ‘secular’ cantata with the the full might of the baroque orchestra, including three trumpets, timpani, two horns that in the opening chorus come together in such a way that resembles the festive character of his better known celebratory oratorios (his Easter and Christmas Oratorios & the Magnificat in D). My interest soon extended beyond its aesthetic appeal, however. Quite often I read the accompanying commentary to these cantatas to better understand what Bach was depicting exactly, made all the more necessary as a non-German speaker experiencing this music outside of its historical context and ~300 years later (Bach wrote BWV 205 during August 1725). Little did I know that this reading about BWV 205 would lead me down a significant rabbit hole that I now have the pleasure of sharing. The ‘profane’ cantatas Bach himself made no explicit effort to create a systematic taxonomy of his cantatas between the sacred and the secular; this was more a posthumous scholarly construction (his son, CPE Bach, was among the first to do so). Interestingly, the term ‘profane’, I learned, has traditionally been applied to his secular cantatas. A contemporaneous reading of that word may imply something that is anti-religious, blasphemous or morally corrupt - this was indeed my initial impression! Rather, ‘Profane’ comes from the Latin ‘pro fanum’, which originally designated what is ‘outside the temple’ - or outside liturgical or sacred use (Charlton, 1897). Its usage to classify his secular cantatas seems to have emerged only from 1885 - in French criticism - by one René de Récy, who states in his ‘Jean-Sébastien Bach et ses Derniers Biographes’ “une autre composition du maître, celle-là toute profane” (p 415) (another composition by the master, this one entirely profane.) The French Dictionary defines profane as “l'art profane et l'art sacré” (“secular art and sacred art”), and we have no reason to doubt that its usage in French musicological expression principally meant ‘non-liturgical’. Nonetheless, the semantics of the word remains problematic considering its historically recognized extended meaning, stated in the first edition of Dictionnaire de l’Académie française (1694): C'est une action profane & impie" (It is a profane and impious action) While it may seem that I am venturing into unnecessary abstraction, this is important context. The libretto by Picander for BWV 205 is inspired by Greek mythology. How could Bach - whose art has come to embody the pinnacle of divine Christian expression in music- also write music inspired by paganism particularly with the same quality of musical-rhetorical devices that underpin the former? On the use of classical mythology It is true that early Christian writers exercised hostility to worship of pagan deities, maintaining that practice as a falsehood. This extended to use of violence to subdue paganism in parts of Europe (the Northern Crusades, for example). Yet a remarkable amount of pagan culture was preserved through art, often explicitly since the Renaissance. At face value this is contradictory, but can be rationalised. The fact is that many of the christian clerics shaming the pagan cults from antiquity were often themselves inspired by the very writers whose works were imbued with a pagan spirit. The intellectual influence of writers such as Homer, Plato, Virgil, Cicero & Ovid, for example, on Christian Europe remained significant. The answer to this conflict was eventually through the secularisation of the Greco-Roman religions, whose deities came to represent literary figures, allegories and rhetorical symbols. By Bach's time, Christianity had already long appropriated ancient culture as an acceptable and educated symbolic vocabulary for artists to deploy in their craft. History and Text of BWV 205 The cantata was commissioned by the students of Leipzig University in tribute to August Friedrich Müller, a lecturer in philosophy and law at the university. It was apparently performed outdoors near Müller’s house in the Katharinenstraße - many magnificent townhouses were built in the baroque style during the early 18th century on Katharinenstraße and regarded as the most magnificent street in Leipzig. Café Zimmermann on the Katharinenstraße where many of Bach’s secular cantatas were first performed Picander’s libretto depicts a mythological clash centred on Aeolus, the Greek ruler of the winds, and his seasonal release of autumnal storms. He takes the storm episode from Book 1 of Virgil’s Aeneid, in which Juno, wishing to prevent Aeneas from reaching Itality, travels to Aeolia and asks Aeolus to release the winds against the Trojan fleet. In the book, Virgil describes Aeolus as a sovereign ruler who keeps the winds imprisoned inside a vast cavern in Thrace, struggling against their chains and reverberating the mountain. He retains their passions and rage and without his governance, the world would be swept away (Packowski, 2007). The libretto of the opening ‘Chorus of Winds’, with English translation: Zerreißet, zersprenget, zertrümmert die Gruft, Tear up, burst apart, smash to pieces the cave Die unserm Wüten Grenze gibt! that sets limits to our rage! Durchbrechet die Luft, Break through the air Dass selber die Sonne zur Finsternis werde, so that the sun itself may turn to darkness Durchschneidet die Fluten, durchwühlet die Erde, cut through the tides, rage through the earth, Dass sich der Himmel selbst betrübt! so that even heaven is distressed. Aeolus, a Greek god of the wind How Bach Depicts the Winds in the Opening Chorus (Chorus of the Winds) Bach makes extensive use of contrary motion - instrumental lines moving in opposing directions - in the opening chorus. From bar 5, for example: From Bar 5 (violins & viola): 2nd violin and viola descending in thirds against the rising first violin part From bar 16: (flutes and oboes): contrary motion again emphasized, with wind parts moving in opposing directions. From bar 20: more elaborate example imitative counterpoint in the minor, dominated by contrary-motion scalar figuration: the bass, strings, oboes and flutes each play their own contribution to the counterpoint in unison. The effect is a flurry of independent and contrasting motifs, much like the motion of a violent storm. Some 'word painting' highlights The passage contains remarkable word painting, in which the ‘Zerreißet’ (English: tear up) is presented as though torn to pieces through fragmented imitation with staggered entries. Its three syllables are separated into short attacks, interrupted by rests (depicting the winds as scattered and violent) before consolidating into a cadential block. It is also interesting to see the cadence on ‘Gruft’ (denoting the prison or cavern) is set in longer, more stable notes. From Bar 29: ‘Zerreißet’ (tear up) before consolidating into a cadential block Starting with “Durchbrechet die Luft” (“break through the air”), the B section immediately provides a contrast to the earlier fragmented assaults of “Zerreißet”. Here, Bach gives way to a homorhythmic pattern as though perhaps the dispersed winds have now combined into a single current, before descending to a cadence in F minor as the sun turns to darkness. From bar 85: Durchbrechet die Luft, Dass selber die Sonne zur Finsternis werde, (Break through the air so that the sun itself may turn to darkness My final highlight From Bar 102: “Durchschneidet die Fluten, durchwühlet die Erde, Dass sich der Himmel selbst betrübt!” (cut through the tides, rage through the earth, so that even heaven is distressed.) Look at how how Bach treats "Himmel selbst betrübt" ("Heaven is distressed") , here. Bach prepares a cadence in b minor, but on "-trübt" he abruptly shifts to the dominant (f sharp minor). Notably his vocal writing suddenly shifts to a perpetual type of motion, while the continuo retains the rapid scalar motion that maintains the image of turbulent wind. The passage finally closes with an end to the B section in the key of F sharp minor. Together, this f# minor passage is evocative of a mighty storm that gives way to cadential consolidation. And contrasted with the restorative de capo (return to A section) that follows, Bach juxtaposes - almost theatrically - the cosmic consequence of the destructive power of the wind where even the heavens are plunged into distress, and with their original demand to "tear, burst and smash" the cavern containing the winds. Closing remarks From hearing this work for the first time last month, this has evidently become quite a rabbit hole. Notwithstanding Bach's sheer genius in his use of musical rhetoric to depict these classical myths, what's perhaps more interesting his that this rhetoric closely resembles that which he applied in his sacred cantatas. It demonstrates his ability - and indeed willingness and adaptability - to transfer musical-rhetorical techniques between both sacred and secular contexts. Being less familiar with his secular cantatas, for me this has added a new dimension to Bach and which deserves much more exploration. Indeed, it appears that his secular cantatas have received relatively less analytical attention from Bach scholarship, which I suspect has historically been drawn more strongly to the theological and devotional significance of his sacred works. Sources Académie française. (1694). Le dictionnaire de l’académie françoise. Paris, Vve de J.B. Coignard. Internet Archive. https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_VEw4AQAAMAAJ Charlton, L. (1879). A latin dictionary Lewis and short. Internet Archive. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.147309/page/n1459/mode/2up For "Profanes", see Page 1459 Paczkowski, S. (2007). A Polonaise Duet for a Professor, a King and a Merchant: on Cantatas BWV 205, 205a, 216 and 216a by Johann Sebastian Bach. https://www.bachnetwork.org/ub2/paczkowski.pdf Récy, R. de. (1885). JEAN-SEBASTIEN BACH ET SES DERNIERS BIOGRAPHES. Wikisource. https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Jean-Sébastien_Bach_et_ses_derniers_biographes

A question Do you think that any piano piece, for example, could be adapted for an orchestral version? Or perhaps there are certain formats or styles that wouldn’t work well in this context? Please feel free to give examples Best regards

My dead young composers, I think it is time to list resources I enjoy reading and am reading. I will start with more accessible to new composers then go to most advance ones. Every composer, under their toolbelt, should have firm understanding tonal harmony. While the millions of books on the market, it is probably difficult to decide which one to use. This is where your undergraduate course helps you. Professors have thier prefence. Mine used "tonal Harmony" However, if you want to get jump, I suggest two books: Fux treatise on species counterpoint, and Tchaikovsky treatise on harmony. Schoenberg also wrote two books on harmony. Be warned: Schoenberg book on Harmony is like reading book on philosophy. Traditional harmony is fine, but we are currently in modern era where that pushes the boundaries. Thus, book on 20th century harmony should the follow up. There are two books that go through this! I think Peter is going through one. He would reccomded that one. I have that one. And I would agree with his assestion about it. I would also suggest picking up book on Alan Forte and "The music of Bela Bartok" Understanding musical style is important as writer. Therefore, Charles Rosen books "The classical style" and "The romantics" are a must. He links Bach to each period. Speaking of Him, he wrote about Sonatas: Sonatas forms. (I hear there are 3 vol set about sonatas, but his book is more concise). Now to onto musical forms: Analyzing Classical forms and Sonata theory. Both are great books. But start with Schoenberg book on composition. I hope this well you. Also, score study. Share your works as you learn. And choose the best path that works for you. Orchestration is the final step! Rimsky-Korosky, Adler, Brant.

OK I think this is the best reason for maintaining the key. In other words, doing so with that conscious intention, as in the examples from the repertoire. I use Dorico too, but I’ve been using it ever since version 1 came out. I used to use Finale as well, but I never liked it, so I switched. I now consider myself an ‘expert’ in quite a few areas, though not so much in others because they don’t interest me. The condensing feature is brilliant, but sometimes you drive yourself mad trying to work out why something hasn’t been condensed. The programme still has some bugs in this respect. Best regards.

I don’t think that you—as a composer at this level, as here at the YCF—should try too hard to develop a personal style, since it seems impossible to me to even intend to do so; for, on the one hand, “almost everything” already exists in terms of musical forms, systems, and languages, and on the other hand—even if one of us were the absolute genius who shapes and influences an entire era—he would unfortunately never live to see it, since such groundbreaking developments are usually only recognized decades or even centuries after the composer’s death. With that said, one should not bother much about it, since a personal musical language actually develops almost automatically as long as your composition exercises and works aren’t too “random,” you follow a consistent approach in your work, and try to incorporate only a few influences from different musical styles or languages into your next piece, rather than imitating a specific style in one piece and then switching to the style of a completely different composer or era in the next. After a year of being a member here on the forum and participating in three competitions or events, I think, I could identify some composers based on their “personal style”—for example (this is a very arbitrary list and by no means exhaustive …): @UncleRed99 – famous for the „warmth“ in its pieces, its chord progression and beautiful utilization of woodwinds. @Fruit hunter – very interesting percussion pieces. @Fugax Contrapunctus – everything about fugues and canons in an extremely thorough, intellectual (and even theoretical) way. @HoYin Cheung – mostly atonal pieces, especially for strings. @L.S Barros – influenced by renaissance and baroque, often utilizing brass ensembles and perhaps myself – counterpoint composition technique, voice leading, and mixed with influences from the 20th century, always starting as piano piece, but more and more orchestration examples ... Maybe for one of the next contests, we could make the submissions anonymous and award badges to the reviewers who correctly guess the most composers… (perhaps a silly idea).

Hello @Alex Weidmann, Congratulations on this fantastic-sounding orchestration of this beautiful piano piece! Even though I’m more familiar with pieces for solo piano and am just at the beginning of my “orchestration career,” I have to admit that the orchestrated version is calmer and gentler than the piano original, where the difficulty of the piece remains perceivable, even in a professional recording. Having an entire orchestra „at its disposal“ gives the chance to create seamless transitions between the various passages and moods from one instrument to another, and – as I’m now also experimenting with orchestration examples, I’m always astonished how well the different instruments blend together, even though they have such distinct timbres on their own. This is a very interesting topic. Having arpeggios in a piano piece tempts one to utilize the harp for that passages. But as Luis demonstrated in his fantastic example, this can be achieved in a more natural way for the orchestra by distributing the arpeggio among several different instruments. However, the „arpeggios“ in this Elegy are real slow (in eight notes), somewhat more in a kind of „broken chords“ which are even written out in full in the original piano score. But what to do if arpeggios in the piano piece are “faster”—that is, block chords preceded by the arpeggio symbol, played the way a harpsichordist would (i.e., with a gap of 32nd or even 64th notes between each note of the chord)? I struggled with that problem in my own orchestration example, in which I tried to achieve the arpeggiated piano texture by distributing it among pizzicato strings, sometimes percussions (vibraphone and glockenspiel), while also retaining much of the original piano notes for the harp. In a „second layer“, the voice leading was then „doubled“ by the remaining „singing“ instruments (woodwinds, brass and some violins). Concerning the usability of the key of E-flat minor for an orchestra, there have been interesting discussions in this thread (and also here in@danishali903 ‘s Nocturne No. 1 in E Flat Minor by Gabriel Fauré (Orchestrated) https://www.youngcomposers.com/t50225/nocturne-no-1-in-e-flat-minor-by-gabriel-faur%C3%A9-orchestrated/ ). The arguments that transposing the piece could make it more playable—for example, for string instruments—cannot be dismissed out of hand. However, as long as there is no actual performance, I would hesitate to transpose the piece to D minor or even E minor. Although there are no longer any physical characteristics distinguishing the various keys since the introduction of the equal-temperament system we use today, there is nevertheless a strong historical and psychological connection between certain moods and their respective keys, a connection that has been “followed” and repeated by numerous composers over the past few centuries, especially in the romantic era. One can even go back to Bach’s Welltempered Clavier where we have the wonderful E-flat minor prelude (in the first book) which is a perfect example for the mood of a „Nocturne“ or „Elegy“, whereas the pieces in E minor are much more „harsh“ and therefore bear the absolute contrasting characteristics. Wieland

That’s true. Although I’m not sure what implications there are in music being a form of communication. I believe that music is, if anything, a metaphorical language. But the meaning of what it might convey is highly subjective. I certainly don’t believe that innovation has to come through new sounds or things like that. The expansion of the expressive techniques of many instruments has already been fully explored. I was referring more to innovation in terms of style, defined as the set of visual, technical and formal features that characterise a work, an artist or an entire artistic movement. And it is far more difficult to create a new language. As such, I believe there have been very few: modal music centred on a single note, tonal music centred on the triad, and, shall we say, the liberation from that centre in its many expressions. But who knows.

Hi guys! I think there are different levels to "personal style." There’s the kind often seen in pop music—a style defined by the individual artist or the band itself—and then there’s the kind @Luis Hernández is referring to: a personal style that carries significant influence. In the 21st century, we see plenty of that first type—original, personal styles—and I personally enjoy listening to them. Artists like Nils Frahm, Boards of Canada, and GoGo Penguin come to mind. Perhaps the reason we aren't seeing the kind of unprecedented, revolutionary shifts that occurred in the 20th century is simply because music has fragmented into so many different genres. That said, I believe new and innovative works are still being created within each of those genres. We have such an incredible array of equipment and techniques available today that, depending on how you combine them, it’s certainly possible to create fresh, novel music. Though, I have to admit, I show absolutely no signs of doing that myself, haha. The topic of "random elements" is also fascinating. You could probably incorporate randomness into a piece by using a DAW that utilizes mathematical formulas for randomization. If you used that to establish rules for sound placement, for instance, you might be able to generate a different piece of music every time using just a single formula. Since the turn of the 21st century, we haven't really seen anyone who represents a paradigm shift in music, but I’m sure someone will emerge eventuallyーand I certainly hope to live long enough to see it happen! Best, Lithl.

Hi I think Fux’s book is entertaining and can teach you a few things, but both the teaching method and the content itself are very outdated. These days, you need to understand counterpoint not only in its Baroque splendour or earlier forms, but also in Classicism, Romanticism and any avant-garde style. As for books on orchestration, my view is that many devote most of their content to the instruments themselves, rather than to orchestration as such. In that sense, the book with the most practical content of this kind is Rimsky-Korsakov’s, though that isn’t very up to date either… To get started with many contemporary compositional techniques, I think Vincent Persichetti’s book is essential.

As a type one sonata, I can safely say the following: The tonic pedal under the TR zone is nice touch. Our ears usually want to V pedal while there is key modulates. But a tonic pedal creates tonal stability and fits within type of sonata. Although there is not official ST after TR launch, which is linked to missing MS. We still have closing section, but not a codetta. The sentence structure in the opening is well written: statement and response. The middle section (B) is small development that follows up with A section. Overall, this type fits nicely with in early period of the romantic composers or with in late baroque-early classical period. I imagine you were inspired by Clemente, Scarleti, Schubert, Mozart, etc. Let me know. I just read @Lithl comment and your reply! Yes, I can see how his works would have influence you. We would not think his sonatas as the norm, but back then, sonatinas were. It is right to say it is binary, but more accurately it is sonatina. :D

on pastel skies was “commissioned” (more in this case called for) by the young composers 2026 summer competition fit this team after a poem about the serene atmosphere of the Midsummer afternoon So, on a bright summer day it shall be: The great sun, my partner in joy, Shall make, amid the satin and the silk, Your dear beauty lovelier still; The sky, all blue, like a tall canopy, Shall quiver sumptuously in the long folds Above our two happy brows, grown pale With pleasure and expectancy; And when evening comes, the breeze shall be soft And play caressingly about your veils, And the peaceful stars looking down Shall smile benevolently on man and wife. The gestation of this piece (initial thought, even before the entry of the first note) was an image of a dreamy Florida sunset over the Gulf of Mexico with this image the piece will transport you to another dimension of into the pastel pink, orange, and red opalescent skies instrumentation xylophone (doubling on glockenspiel and crotales, /w large zill bell attachment vibraphone I /w sus and Z.bell and dull metallic object (something like a Burma bell) vibraphone II /w sus and Z.bell and dull metallic object (something like a Burma bell) Marimba I /w sus and temple blocks Marimba II /w Chimes, sus and temple blocks and large, vibrating drum ( tom or surdo ect.) On Pastel Skies.mp3 On Pastel Skies.pdf

TampaBay.pdfTampaBay.mp3So.. I am currently working on a second submission for another call for scores (2/2 now. Submitted one for another competition last week). I would appreciate some feedback on the current progress of this score as it is. I'm looking for answers for: Voice leading; have I been effective with creating smooth transitions between the chords, and leading tones into the different sections? If not, where could I improve this? Form; is the form, starting points & destinations easily distinguishable, enjoyable to follow and effective in the narration of the depicted theme? How could I better write for texture, at and beyond the C rehearsal marking? The score is a tribute and homage to the lives lost during the allied offensive in Germany, kicking off on D-Day in June of 1944. You'll see my call-back to Taps, in a variable manner, near the end of my current stopping point. Enjoy listening & reading along, and I look forward to the feedback I may receive :)

When it comes to personal style, as a composer, it is hard to describe what that style would be. Yes, I compose ensemble pieces (rather solo or chamber) or full orchestra, too. However, period style is not going to be same. The term best fits me is "polystylist". This means I could possibly write in different styles. For instance, my Halloween piece was written for string quartet but the style 20th century. (note; I could have written a serialism written for that competition...). Currently, I working piece that sounds neo classical for the next competition. Joe Hirashi was the inspiration for the piece. My personal taste is open book. Heck. George Leigti works are always fun to listen to. And who does not want to listen a post tonal composition that has clusters and other modern jazz. :) The problem is...midi can not play back alerotical boxes and clusters. Only live musicians can. Thus, that is what trying figure out, next. How to have play back in score. (maybe use a daw?)

Hi everyone! This small collection of pieces I wrote that explores the concept of the lullaby from different perspectives: -The first piece uses more active and independent voices while still preserving the gentle character of a lullaby. -The second takes a more traditional approach, focusing on simplicity and a singable melody. -The third explores a more dreamy and suspended atmosphere, aiming to capture the feeling of drifting into sleep. -The fourth takes a darker direction, attempting to evoke sadness and longing through a slow, hypnotic atmosphere. Timestamps: 00:00 Lullaby I 01:05 Lullaby II 01:55 Lullaby III 03:30 The Last Lullaby YouTube link Score Once again I would like to thank you for giving me your time and valuable feedback that keeps me going and improving everyday! I couldn't be happier that I discovered this forum! Lullaby G Major.mp3 Lullaby in F Major.mp3 Lullaby in F Minor.mp3 Lullaby C Major.mp3 Lullaby C Major.pdf Lullaby G Major.pdf Lullaby in F Major.pdf Lullaby in F Minor.pdf

I wrote a movement in sonata form where all of the phrases in the exposition and development are prime numbers in length in terms of measures. Primes.mp3 Primes.pdf

@Luis Hernández Thank you so much for listening and for the feedback! Totally get where you're coming from! While writing these, I kept trying to maintain fairly strict counterpoint, but I found that when both voices became too active, the music started losing some of the calmness I wanted from a lullaby. So in several places I made the second voice more of a harmonic support rather than an equally independent contrapuntal voice. I also found that stepwise motion was really important for the sense of calmness I was going for. So sometimes i prioritized that over strict counterpoint, which led to some of the parallels you noticed. I probably could have found a better balance between the two! And again thanks so much for listening!

I’ve listened to two of them; I’ll listen to the others later. The one in C strikes me as almost perfect. It’s harmonious and has that lullaby feel to it. I just think the two-part section from bar 23 onwards has a sequence of parallel fourths that I’m not entirely keen on. I think what you’re trying to do is complete the chord. The other one sounds less like a lullaby, but I think it suffers from something similar. At certain cadential points, there are successive fourths (doubled, at that) which don’t quite sit right with me in this sort of piece. The thing is, in something so delicate, with such pure lines and drawing on the legacy of counterpoint, all this stands out a bit.

I completely agree with this. The thing is, when you’re learning, I think it’s good to explore and delve into a wide range of styles, given that we now have the resources to do so. Of course, it’s a process that, depending on each person’s circumstances, may never end. I think the level of commitment plays a big part here. A professional composer is not in the same boat as people who compose as a hobby (and do so whenever they can). Honestly, as I’m in that second group, I don’t think I’ll ever have time in my life to define a narrow circle of influence. That doesn’t mean, however, that when I set out to write something, I do so within a framework I’ve defined beforehand.

"Meandering Up and down".......................... that made me laugh out loud , or should i say LOL ?

LoL .. I really don't know and can't say. The judges at these things could be much stricter than our community here on Young Composers. Your rhythms - you have a characteristic way of meandering up and down and you can't resist the inclusion of occasional triplets LoL

A while ago, I uploaded my orchestration of Schönberg’s Six Little Pieces for Piano, Op. 19. There were lots of things that could have been improved. Mainly because, at the time, I didn’t really know how to analyse the original composition properly and transpose it for the orchestra. I’m uploading only No. 2 from Op. 19 here, which is very, very short. After completing it, it was reviewed by a professional composer, and I’ve noted down the suggestions he gave me. The opening was very ‘dry’, with just the strings in pizzicato, so I added the flute notes, which are in a soft register and played pianissimo, to create a resonant effect. The line played by the oboe and clarinet in bars 2 and 3 – I’d originally written it doubled by a violin, with the parts shared between these instruments. I’ve removed the violin and split the line into two pairs that make sense given the different intervals. This way, the instruments sound ‘pure’, in keeping with this musical language. At the climactic moments, in bar 6 and the finale, I have added a beat or more, so that those climactic chords resonate for as long as necessary. Furthermore, the two final notes on the clarinets were short (eighth notes) and, as the teacher pointed out, the upper part of the chord did indeed sound ‘muted’ and hollow. So I lengthened them. Extending the final chord allowed me to make the harp’s glissando rise and then fall. Before, it only went up. In this sort of language, I think you have to be quite literal, but also allow yourself some licence so that the orchestra can display its capabilities, such as those resonances and prolongations in certain bars. 02 sch.mp3 Partitura_.pdf

Hi @UncleRed99 ! I think it's a very nice and sonically pleasing work! The inclusion of Taps in the piece (albeit with liberal artistic license) enriches the message of the piece being a dedication to those who died on D-Day (probably the most gruesome and intense engagement in WWII). I think I could compare you to Brahms in a way, because Brahms in his harmonic structuring of his pieces was so dependent on 3rds and 6ths (something he also had in common with Percy Grainger). Your music on the other hand is very suspension-heavy, constantly creating those major and minor 2nds that rub and resolve pleasantly to major or minor sonorities. I think you should be weary of this however, since this style of writing for brass is very common in the DCI (Drum Corps International) universe and doesn't win you points for originality, creativity or style. Although I would argue that you do have a certain personal style that is recognizable. Thanks for sharing!

. with me changes, I usually have those as suggestions the ensembles I have been with useing mallet instruments we had mallet bags which allowed us to drop stuff in and quickly pull stuff out With the octaves, I think that’s just purely for texture reasons sometimes I’ll have a single player use an octave grip with runs sometimes

I have yet another orchestration for you today. This was apparently Debussy's last work, which makes it all the more poignant for me to orchestrate. It contains some surprising and fascinating harmonic progressions, pointing the way towards those composers who came after him. I've tried to maintain the furtive and playful nature of the piece, and kept the orchestration as light as possible. I think I've probably gone a bit too high for the trumpet? Might be a bit squeaky and unpleasant up there? Colin Matthews has orchestrated this one, and I listened to his version about a week before crafting mine. Tried not to let it influence me at all, and I haven't looked at his score. Anyhow, looking forward to your thoughts... (N.B. An updated/amended version is posted lower down the thread.) Debussy - Les soirs illuminés par l'ardeur du charbon #19 (midi).mp3 Debussy - Les soirs illuminés par l'ardeur du charbon #21 (score).pdf

Hi @Luis Hernández! In principle, I think you could adapt any piano work for an orchestra using a DAW. That said, there are certainly some that would be incredibly difficult, take Conlon Nancarrow’s Study No. 40a, for instance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXd-I_7XBoY That one might be almost impossible, don't you think? (Haha) Ultimately, piano works originally composed for player pianos might not be well-suited for orchestral adaptation. The same likely applies to piano pieces with an extremely sparse number of notes. Even if it were possible, the real question is whether the orchestration adds any value, whether it actually "works" or not. By the way, your arrangement of Schoenberg’s Six Little Pieces for Piano, Op. 19 was really good! I didn't comment on the specific topic because I don't feel qualified to offer advice on orchestration. However, I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed it! Best, Lithl.

As a listener ... just a fun piece! Mark

A very effective and engaging orchestration ... it possesses a well rounded tonal balance with interesting color. Nice work. Mark

Alex, Please aware that in measure 6 you have a slur in pp in the Oboe going to the B - Bb the Oboe's lowest note. Not a problem usually, however, at that dynamic level it might not work. At measure 16 you have the Oboe at the high F and G.... I don't see the benefit here at all. Not really recommended unless it is an avant garde work. In both cases the Oboist will not be happy with the orchestration. Mark

The truth is, it’s a surprising, original and captivating piece. Two things strike me – though they’re more questions than anything else, as my experience with percussion is very, very limited. One is the speed with which the percussionist changes instruments (or mallets). Sometimes it seems to happen in ‘zero time’. Is that possible? I suppose it must be down to the layout of the instruments and the mallets? The other is that in many sections the vibraphones and marimbas play in unison or an octave apart – is this due to the acoustic volume of the instruments? It sometimes sounds a bit overloaded, but I imagine that’s down to the virtual instrument as well. It’s certainly a very good lesson on percussion. As for the connection with the poem, well, I don’t know – I’m one of those who think that music doesn’t describe anything. To me, it sounds lively and cheerful, and, in a way, the instruments do remind me of a sunset on the coast. The score is explained very well.

@Luis Hernández I also own Cecil book. His humor is rather intelligent. But at the time it was written, the alto flute was inaptly named bass flute. now, we both there is actual bass flute. So this is not correct naming. unlike Adler, he miss places other woods in brass section section. Again this is error on his part.

@Kvothe @Henry Ng Tsz Kiu THANK YOU I’m going to try and get hold of a copy of Adler’s treatise… I have a lesser-known little book by Cecil Forsyth (‘Orchestration’) which is a good complement because it covers the history of each instrument, why and how they came to be as they are, amongst other things. As for counterpoint… it’s a controversial topic and warrants a separate thread. In any case, when you haven’t followed a formal musical education and career path, as is my case – I do everything out of passion – at certain points or moments a good teacher is essential. Someone who’s a good educator, who can guide you directly. That gives you the wings to carry on on your own. I’ve turned to this professional ‘help’ at critical moments: When I decided to study tonal and modal harmony in depth. When I decided to delve into 20th-century compositional techniques. When I decided to understand and apply counterpoint in any style. And right now… with orchestration. Long live music!!

I don’t think innovation has to go hand in hand with formal training. I do think that any kind of training is beneficial. What I find challenging at the moment is the very act of innovating. And that’s not a bad thing. There’s enough material and musical languages out there to do millions of things. Throughout the 20th century, I believe there have indeed been many movements and composers who have explored, innovated and pushed boundaries, many of whom have left behind their own musical languages. Ives + Cowell, Schoenberg, Bartók, Messiaen, Cage, Ligeti, … right up to Pärt and Rautavaara. Minimalism… But since the latter part of the 20th century, I don’t think there has been any significant innovation. Perhaps in this day and age, innovation will have to come hand in hand with new technologies and sciences: Symbiosis with artificial intelligence: perhaps the composer could train a musical language model using their own works to generate variations with which to engage in real-time dialogue. The creation of mutable works (soundtracks, etc.) that never sound the same twice, adapting to factors relating to the listener. Perhaps some kind of microtonal system might re-emerge in the future?

Having read the review of the trumpet in F, I think it refers to a natural trumpet. It’s the same as with the French horn. Before the 19th century, these instruments were not chromatic. They were only capable of playing a natural scale. That is why there were horns in D, G, etc., depending on how they were constructed. This entailed significant limitations, particularly from today’s perspective. And that is why they took longer to be incorporated into the symphonic repertoire. In the 19th century, horns and trumpets evolved to incorporate the modern mechanisms of valves, etc., and became as we know them today. I believe that in such situations, one should look for another instrument where the register is comfortable.

I did find this webpage on F trumpets: Robb Stewart Brass InstrumentsOrchestral F Trumpet History — Robb Stewart Brass Instrum...Apparently they were very popular in the 1800s; but it says they're basically extinct today!

Now that I think about it, I used to march in a drum and bugle corps and all of our instruments were in G, even though such horns were usually also very rare. I marched with a G Mellophone which was basically a G Marching French Horn. The Trumpets were called G Sopranos and the Trombones and Tubas were just called G Tenors and G Contras. So I'm sure there exists every kind of instrument and tuning imaginable, somewhere.

My bad! 😁

There is no such thing as an F Trumpet! LoL .. There's Bb Trumpet, Eb Cornet, C Trumpet, etc. But if you want a lower, F version of a trumpet you'd probably want a Flugelhorn! Although, I just looked it up on google and it says that F Trumpets and Flugelhorns do exist but are very rare.

Thanks Henry! It's actually by Debussy; not Fauré. (I think Luis mentioned Fauré because their music is of the same era, and has some common traits.) I'd probably have to use an F trumpet rather than a B flat trumpet or cornet? Not an expert in trumpets though! Alex

I actually like the undoubled sound since it reinforces the airy and ethereal mood of the original Faure piece. I think if there’s a bar’s rest it will be better for putting the mutes on. But yeah, using flautando or natural/artificial harmonics can produce that ethereal effect. Will a cornet serve better than trumpet for its more mellow sound? Thx for sharing! Henry

Adler’s book does deal with the orchestration itself in a rather detailed fashion. But again, the main focus should be you listening to many orchestral music with the book beside for your assistance on understanding orchestration. Adler’s book does have a quite big list of music references which I did go through and listening all of them really helps me! Henry

I think counterpoint is essential but it can only be learned only after you have some level of understanding on harmony. Fux’s book is great if you want to learn about counterpoint in Palestrina’s style since Fux aimed at the stile antico counterpoint. I would suggest if you want to learn counterpoint, you should get yourself familiar to the Well Tempered Clavier. And theory books on counterpoint are only supplements to real music for you to understand the beauty of counterpoint in real music, Henry

@Luis Hernández Fux is starting point for counterpoint. For tonal 18th century counterpoint: I would recommend: Piston and Kennan and either 18th century counterpoint by Gauldin or Baroque Counterpoint by Schubert.

Hello Fantastic. I think it captures the romantic spirit of Fauré [SORRY: DEBUSSY] very well – intimate, aristocratic and with a restrained elegance – acting as a direct bridge between the 19th century and French Impressionism. It all sounds very clear. I just have two comments: 1. Another thing that’s been firmly etched into my mind regarding the orchestra: always reinforce the bass. Because it’s in the part of the audio spectrum that the human ear perceives least clearly. Here it’s carried solely by the double basses; it could be doubled by the cellos, or a horn, or alternated, since you don’t have any bassoons. 2. Finally, I’m not sure if it’s possible to fit mutes onto the violins and viola in such a short space of time (half a bar). Overtones could be used for that effect. Best regards.

Hi @interlect ! Nice video and music! I do wonder about the credits though... "Evelyn Nightmare", "Max Martini" and "Stella Midnight" sound like fake names among many others. Did you get this footage from some website selling stock footage? Thanks for sharing!

Hi @interlect ! It does sound like film score when the protagonists are saving ppl from disasters! Henry

I would like to supplement some information too: I think "Harmony and Voice Leading" by Aldwell and Schachter is the standard textbook for understanding tonal harmony. For me Damschroder's series of Thinking in Harmony and Harmony in XX(Composer's name) is a really good practical series. The 3 volume set is William S Newman's series and I had read the series last summer. Rather teaching Sonata form the series is on the historical change in Sonatas in different musical periods so not neccesarily useful for beginners, but it's a really good read if you want to know the history! Adler's book is a must read on orchestration. I read it this year and it helps me so much on orchestral writing! Henry

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