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Also something else I need to say about this: So I, and others, can put in hours of work writing the music, orchestration, making detailed mockups, etc. but a guy who writes a Suno prompt and has a "piece" in 5 minutes is treated as equally-valid in this event? It isn't actually even his music. Where is the "fun" in that, exactly? Why even bother? You guys say you want more people to do reviews. What your reviews are going to become if this kind of thing is permitted is a bunch of people being like "Nice prompt bro, but I would've said 'romantic soaring strings' instead of 'cinematic'".

Hi my dear readers, it's me again. I don't understand many things here, but first things first. Imagine that I say this piece is evidently made by AI. It would be very easy to prove me wrong, @Vonias. Instead of submitting .mid files, a better, more detailed description of the process you followed would have clarified all posters here of what you did and what you have not done with it. Personally I don't care a single bit about that but we'll get to that point later. Please, consider that you are in a place filled by trained & experienced musicians and some of us have passed hundreds of hours listening to pieces just to give feedback out of either a brief or a more in-depth analysis. For some, not specifying that you were helped by an AI to make a better recording of your work and ambiguously describe it or talk about it with phrases like: may very well lead to confusion and even anger among others who consciously decided against using this tools in order to participate in an event in which ultimately your compositional ability is what we want people to show off, review and comment. Various AI tools exist to "help" with that recognition, but they are still in beta (mostly) and their own creators advise against using them as reliable methods. I took the liberty to pass the audio to some, despite you confirmed that the recording is AI: It basically says "Pure AI" 90% and provides a model. Tell me —if you want— if it hit it, this will make this developer's work better. But the thing is that you say everything else is not AI-generated. And this is where we get into trouble here. There are two different pieces here. A pdf submitted along the creation of the post that has little to do with the final mp3 you provided and the score that apparently resembles the mp3, according to you, 1:1? What's exactly the relation between the first and second scores? I can see some, let's say "adventurous" chords in the first score but not that many in the second. First score is half the size, begins with a different voicing. Rhythms don't really coincide, lyrics rest at different places "angel____ vs. an-gel cries___" . Midis are all over the place but you can clearly see the difference. Just pointed out some. What @AngelCityOutlaw is pointing out is mostly in the right direction but: That would not work. You need a seed too. If you do that yourself twice with the same material (and without fixing the seed) you'll get different things if you don't specify the same seed to the model, whatever it be. It happens with music, but also with LLMs and Image & video generators. And there are various tools to treat, import and export midis. Generating high-quality products using it is a whole 'nother story yes, but we ain't talking about one here, this is a <1 minute composition. Finally let me tell you that I don't mind if you just made the whole thing via AI, a part, or whatever. I would prefer you and anybody else in that situation to be honest and clarify things from the beginning to the rest of us who most likely are prone to and will have a listen to your piece, perhaps even giving some also honest feedback in exchange. Regarding that, the audio doesn't seem quite fitting. The strange autotune sound that the AI apparently gives to the singers sometimes and the strange cuts in vibrato feel off. The piece lacks development but it's a short "poem" more or less, right? For more info on this topic of using AI to make/export/import music on many formats, an AI that I have enslaved using a rectangular plastic card that spits money, may show you the way. Or maybe not, who knows: https://www.perplexity.ai/search/can-suno-or-similar-programs-e-2dN_8OipSNCC93.FtFGJoA?sm=d#0 Perhaps I'm late to the party, but these are my two cents. Sorry for my possible typos in advance... I am too sleepy. Regards!

Good evening again, dear friends. Although I have posted all the movements of the sonata separately, here I am sharing the entire sonata, where you can listen to all the movements one after the other for a better experience and appreciation of the work. It may not be something innovative, but it is the musical language that expresses me, and that musical language is classical pre-romantic. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you once again.

Greetings all! Hot off the presses, here is my latest piece, my Oboe Quartet in D, for Oboe, Violin, Viola, and 'Cello. It's in four movements and lasts about 17 minutes. I don't have any accounting for why I decided to write this piece. I was just sitting there one day after I finished a Divertimento for woodwinds and had let some space come between - several weeks without writing - and the idea for the opening movement came to me out of the blue. I started writing, and it came pretty easily. The whole thing took about a month intermittently. I'm a violist, not an oboist. A couple of weeks ago I made a post asking for some guidance as to the limitations of the oboe, and got some good answers. After doing some research on my own additionally, and checking with a friend of mine who plays Classical Oboe, I've made some calculated demands in the upper register of the instrument that I'm hoping won't be too taxing on a Classical instrument. It certainly should present no problems to a player on a modern instrument. I did my best to provide reasonable opportunities for breath - the last movement being the most demanding in this way, but circular breathing may be a good option - as well as quite a number of rests to allow the player to rest his/her embouchure. I've done my best without selling myself short, and I hope it shows. I hope you enjoy this. I look forward to your comments. Thanks! - Composed: November 13 - December 6, 2025 at Austin. - Instrumentation: Oboe, Violin, Viola, Violoncello. - Style: Classical, ca. 1790-1800 - Duration: 17:15 - Electronic Rendering by Finale 27 music notation software’s "Human Playback" with NotePerformer 4 artificial intelligence assisted interpretation.

I'm sorry Mike, but you guys folded like a cheap suit in a matter of minutes. You give these AI bros an inch and they'll take 3 miles. What is to say you won't fold the same when it's not "just for fun?" Aren't all of these "just for fun" in some way? And people will bring up that "Well you accepted AI that time!" Is this a place for composers, or a place for grifters passing off AI music?

I'm withdrawing my participation. Competition or not, if you're putting on essentially a display of music created by members and also giving out site badges for them, then I feel that music should actually be created and produced by the members of the forum. I want my music alongside other human-created works.

Hi! I'm looking for any feedback on a string quartet that I composed so that I can make some refinements before entering it in a few competitions. Thanks!

I am in 🙂

ill join.

Then you can take some of your time to review my works! They all have scores haha. Henry

i’m hoping to participate, itll be a long shot finishing everything up and recording it in time but yeah

Hello folks! Been a little bit (always is a little bit between when I talk on here it seems) I've been hard at work at college writing all sorts of stuff, but amid all the music I'm writing and playing for school, I've also been working on a personal piece for solo piano. Dedicated to someone I love very much, the piece is an exploration of love. Movement 1 is the only movement written so far, and it is about passionate love (maybe I'll call it Eros. Still figuring out names or if I even want names for the movements.) I'll explain the movement's structure so you can maybe understand what I'm trying to do. Intro: It starts floating on an A dominant 7 chord, overtop of which soars a delicate but sometimes dissonant melody with huge leaps. It remains in this uncertain space a little while. Then it bursts into arpeggios and a fanfare-like triplet motif in F Major, gradually building more and more, before collapsing into the exposition. Exposition: The first theme in F minor is fiery and built from two motifs, the passionate right hand and the rumbling left hand. Cadencing in the relative major, the motifs then set off to transition to the next area. The second theme is in the distant key of D major and is a beautiful transformation of the melody from the introduction. A recurring turn motif brings the melody to its PAC and the closing theme commences with triumphant arpeggios (you will hear the inspiration from Chopin Ballade no. 4) but is suddenly overturned by D minor with the rumbling left hand motif of the first theme, ending the exposition dramatically in Bb Major!! Unlike I think literally all of my other sonata form pieces, there is no exposition repeat before the development. Development: In the soundscape of the exposition's closing chord, the developed introductory melody quietly emerges, again unsure, interwoven with fragments of the first theme. Eventually the second theme's rumbling motif takes hold, and a series of violent sequences commences. At its climax, it collapses again in a whirlwind. Out of the bleak, emerges now the second theme, in a hopeful manner, modulating from Ab Major to E minor, and finally culminating in the most passionate and beautiful variation in G Major, with repeated chords and heavy rubato. It reaches its turn motif and PACs in G Major erupting into the closing theme arpeggios, but now being derailed again, even earlier than last time into C minor! And now we're at the Fugue, based on the same rumbling left hand motif that's been so persistent in the development. After reaching its peak, it sequences a little more and is now in C Major and has successfully set up the dominant retransition to the tonic F minor! Recapitulation: First theme is mostly the same as before. The transition is however different and more "bravura" than before. The second theme tragically is now in F minor, and doesn't get its old turn motif to cadence, and instead prepares to close the movement in the drama of the first theme. But it's diverged! We move away from that extreme low register now into the highest register as we hear one last time the full second theme in F Major, much barer and more suspended, but again with its cadence motif. But it doesn't finish quite yet. It repeats the motif, before slipping back into an A dominant 7 chord for the coda. Coda: Largely an exact repeat of the introduction, but what was before a solid dominant pedal, is now broken up by the tonic in the bass, giving a more resolved sound. With no more burst into F major, the movement closes on low D Major chords. Now the reason I really want your guys' feedback is because I want to play this for the dedicatee soon, and I just want to make sure it's perfect before I present it to him. I did show the piece to my professor, but he said it sounded too traditional and suggested I listen to Sciarrino for inspiration 🥲 Let's just say I have different taste than him lol. The performance isn't perfect, and the score is very unpolished! But everything should come across pretty well hopefully. Thank you in advance! 😄

Hello! I was working on a piano piece after I had an idea but I didn't have any direction for the song or an idea of what I wanted to do after the main part. It'd be nice if you gave a suggestion. [idk what else to write, have a good day :)]

since this part is rigid, very busy with the eighth notes, and has fragmented melody, maybe the next section could be in higher register, dominated by sustained chords, with a longer legato melody for contrast? or it could go the other direction and be very heavy, lower register-y stuff. and thenn maybe for the repetition, you could combine the two characteristics of both sections into one: having the driving force of the eighth notes while simultaneously have the underlying sustained harmony. this is just my interpretation however, just options that i've thrown spontaneously. but i hope they could help!

Hi all, here is a composition I began in 2011. I rediscovered it in my computer files and decided to rework it and give it some new life. Hope you enjoy the work. All comments welcome as usual.

This piece has an (Italian) cinematic feel to it ..... paints an interesting moment for sure! Mark

Ok, thank you for your feedback.

@AngelCityOutlaw, this is a just for fun event which is why we are ok with the submission. Also, Vonias is being very clear about his submission being AI generated or assisted. We'd love for you to be a part of this event, but of course its up to you. You can change your mind any time, we just want to keep things festive and fun on YC!

After undergoing plenty of struggle to find a proper textual setting capable of matching the rhythmic patterns of this vocal fugue, I decided to settle for an altered version of the "Libera me" movement commonly found on Requiem masses. Despite the minor changes required for the text to fit the subject of the fugue, its treatment throughout has been a conscious attempt to make it as audibly intelligible as possible, as opposed to the vast majority of my previous vocal works, where any regard for the text was completely secondary to the music. YouTube video link:

@Kvothe Very cool! Loved the exposition. Especially got a kick out of the col legno in the lower parts, and the Dies Irae quote gave me a chuckle. You did leave me wanting a more definitive ending, but that's okay. Awesome!

Greetings Henry. Indeed I had expected the similarities between the primary subject of BWV 1080 and the ones used here would end up seeming far too glaring. Perhaps it may serve as a testament to the versatile simplicity of this kind of subjects, whence far greater complexity may be properly built upon. In any case, another fair reminder of Bach's genius and the omnipresent influence of his fugal developments. With that out of the way, I must apologize for not replying sooner with regards to the recent calamity. I wholeheartedly hope none of your acquaintances were directly affected by the fire. I initially hesitated to properly dedicate it to the victims due to its magnitude and devastation, and especially because of the gruesome suffering, mourning, affliction and grief so many families and friends of the deceased must be going through, for which this humble composition of mine could never properly stand up to provide nearly enough consolation. However, I should have realized sooner that not acknowledging it at all would be far more insensitive and disrespectful towards the victims and their loved ones. As such, albeit rather late, the dedication has been included in the score document. My utmost condolences. 節哀順變。

What I said is that there is no way AI generated "just a recording" of his piece. When I googled, even when I asked ChatGPT, there is no AI presently that can generate an accurate — "1:1" as OP says — mockup recording. If there was, Spitfire would be closing their doors right now. He also says he prompted it. Okay well, do you actually believe he sat there and typed out an entire note-for-note description and it rendered it? If you believe that, then prompt the AI (he doesn't say which he used) and if you don't get the exact same result, then you know he's lying. I can't get Suno to generate a solo drone, never mind a precise multi-voice harmony for choir that is 1:1 what I'd write. What has most likely happened here, is he is passing off an AI generated track as "his" work because it fit the "vision" he had or something and is providing you with a transcription. Until someone provides evidence and can replicate this piece with the same prompts or software, there is no reason to believe otherwise.

Thank you.

@Kvothe Greetings! Thank you so much for reviewing my piece! I see what you mean about using treble clef more for the higher stuff instead of ledger lines. i do the same thing with high bassoon parts, and I should probably pay more attention to that. As for shifting positions as I've called for, I've written this piece more for a highly proficient player - not a virtuoso necessarily, but the equivalent of someone with a master's degree in performance - and what I've written shouldn't present too much of a problem for a player of that calibre. I'm a violist myself, and I can play this. I've also showed it to another violist, and he found nothing prohibitive about it. Thanks again very much!

Bump 😅

I What AI? I am unaware of any AI currently on the market that is capable of rendering sheet music as high-quality, "1:1" audio. If there was already such a thing, the sample library market would have imploded. But you said you "Prompted" it. Well, I'm similarly unaware of any of the major music AIs being able to deliver anything 1:1 based on a description. If such a thing existed, Suno and whatever the other big one is would already have been trounced. I tried to get these things to generate just a drone all by itself and it couldn't even do that, so I don't believe that, based on a prompt, you got an AI to deliver these complex harmonies and such "1:1" Absolutely no way.

Hi long time for no posting! I decided to post an old work of mine.This Nocturne in C-sharp minor is a juvenile work of me as a 16 year old. I didn't think much at the time of composing, but I did write in the style of Chopin Nocturne then. And then a sudden thought caused me to have a 1st try in fugue in 2:35! I revised the work recently to improve on some voice leadings and transitions except passages after the fugato, but retained as much the original intention as I can as a 16 year old then. The work, even though as immature as it is, does reflect some of my feelings then. Here is the Youtube video and the score of the piece: (Final Draft) Nocturne in C sharp minor.pdf This work can be regarded as in a rondo structure: 0:00 1st part(A), typical Chopin Nocturne texture. Don't know why I modulated the music to F major but the music did so himself... 0:58 2nd part(B) Main melody in F major, but with a new b motive in b.31-32 1:35 3rd part (A') The main melody in the original key can't wait to enter... Gets more agitated and cools down. 2:35 4th part (B'). A fugato using motive b as subject and main melody as episode, modulates once more to F major 3:57 Last part and coda (A''): The A section returns with some registeral change, then gets more agitated. 4:29 is the climax of the piece which is my favourite too, I like the agitation in it. 4:47 starts the coda and finally the mood cools down and ends in tonic major. I played the recording myself. I do make one major slip in 3:22 but the recording is otherwise good enough for me. Feel free to leave comment below! Henry

this is actually extreamly impressive I have to say I do wounder how is that chopinish feel achived? because right from the start this feels like something he would write, and I honestly have no idea how you did that

oh that sounds wounderful honestly! now I'm a bit jealous as I am sixteen as well and I don't get close to your level but oh well everyone starts somewhere :3 I'll take into account your correction about the sharps and flats, and maybe I'll extend the piece when I have time, thanks 😄

Thank you my dear Kvothe As i said to Henry, “Yes, this sonata was modeled after Schubert, and yes, it is classical-romantic both in terms of structure and harmony. I’m incredibly happy that the final result is what it is. As for the next step, I don’t know. For now, I’m writing what expresses me — something classical to early romantic in style.” Thanks again for your apreciation and your attention

A piano piece I wrote called Lazy Day. I think I could've elaborated more in some sections but overall fits the theme of the song 😄 Looking for feedback on the piano score as I know notation is not my strong suite. Thanks in advance & hope you enjoyed listening! Lazy Day Score.pdf

On the 4th movement: Ronodo-Sonata? As henry mentioned, and I agree with him, the character and mood fits within the classical period sonata. It is light and humorous. What makes more interesting is the modulations. We are not moving to direct close keys by 5ths. No. We are moving chromatically; and possibly enharmonically to keys that are futher away! This was the trademark of romantic period. The romantics wanted to push the bounds of tonality. Even Wanger obscure it, which opens to the door to 20th century. The next step: maybe look into romantic style. Rolen wrote about this. 🙂

Thanks Henry! That upwards leap in b.58 is definitely a cry of anguish for me. Glad you liked it! I was actually considering dropping the whole first movement: so great minds think alike! I agree it's the weakest of the three, perhaps because it's too pastiche, and also feels like it's treading water in the middle section. Since Vivaldi was a major inspiration, I was trying to evoke his violin concertI in my style of composition. For example the repeated notes in the third movement coda are typical of his music, and help to inject extra impetus and energy.

Hi @Wieland Handke! It’s nice to see all those D major passages run into my favourite C sharp minor haha. Nice counterpoint, just beware that some C natural should be B sharp instead. Henry

Hi @Vasilis Michael! Just on the fourth movement it’s funny and full of great modulations, and the mood is light just like many Classical sonatas. On the whole sonata, I think it’s more like an early Romantic sonata with all those more advanced modulations. But whatever style, I like this one. Maybe the next step would be to start finding newer voices! Thx for sharing! Henry

For Good Friday. SAB and cello, or one hand of piano or organ if you don't have a cellist. Choirs always have a harder time finding tenors and basses than female singers, and the problem is worse right now, when so many older singers left due to the pandemic and haven't returned yet. So I thought I would write something with a baritone part that sits right in the middle of the male range. An actual baritone will have a few lovely notes on either side of the range that this is written, but this particular piece can be sung by a tenor without going too low, and also isn't too high for a bass. So whoever you happen to have in your choir, this should be performable, and in normal times, when the tenors and basses together are generally still pretty few in numbers, you'll get a nice balanced sound against the sops and altos. Any thoughts on my cello slurring, cellists? I played violin off and on, but I would love the take of current string players. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This one is a little bit minor, little bit dorian, kept it on the simpler side. 😄 I hope you enjoy, and as always all comments and thoughts are welcome! EDIT: Added Henry's performance... thanks Henry!!

Hey Vince, I really like the music and enjoy playing it. I have to say, playing it helps relieve some of my pain during these few days when the fire engulfs at least 156 residents in HK. I love the variety you added in the music despite keeping it simple, for example the dynamics plus harmonic change like in b.20, 29 and 31, and keeping the counterpoint oblique. In my recording during the long phrase in b.11-19 I did add some dynamic changes of my own which is not included in the score haha. Thx for sharing. Henry

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it! Also, added some wonderful playing by Henry 😄

Hi @Tunndy, Just beware of the parallel 8ves like those in b.1 between violin and viola (A-G), b.2 (F-G and F#-G!). And those dissonance of minor 2nds like in b.5 wouldn’t sound good as well. Henry

Hey Jonathon @ComposaBoi, I would have commented earlier if not 1) for my consistent illness 2) The tragic HK fire. Very passionate playing and forget all those wrong notes, as the power really reaches me. I will just take note from start to end. The whole first D Major section sounds like a Barcarolle to me with the dominant pedal, and b.3 and b.5 flourishing sounds like Hisashi to me with the dreamy mood. For the b.21 section with that agitato mood I won’t write Lento on it with 32nd notes. I may just augment on the notes by 2 and put an allegro agitato there. Like the solemn and furious F minor theme. I actually find the 2nd subject too short and the triumph arriving too early, and then the breakdown to D minor too early. I love the key changing in your development (for example to C minor), but I do think that left hand triplets motive can be used less frequently, since it sounds a bit predictable at the end for me. I like the Ab major section but again I think you can augment the note value and put an Allegro there. Like that you bring the triumph of the 2nd subject before the fugato. I feel like the fugato here not developed enough just like the fugato in my Nocturne lol. And basically that triplets motive dominates the whole development and maybe you can use a different subject? I really like the Grave Mystico (or Misterioso?) passage with the higher register melody, contrasting the middle to low register used mostly in the piece. I only feel the D Major ending unsatisfied since it’s really unrelated to what happen between. But maybe it’s right here with later movements. Thx for sharing. Henry

Hey Pabio @Fugax Contrapunctus, I really enjoy this older style counterpoint. The subject strongly reminds me of the first subject of Contapunctu XIV in Bach’s Die Kunst der Fuge. May this piece also dedicated to the victims of the Hong Kong fire recently happened. Henry

I've taken the Christmas Carol's "Angels we have heard on high" and "Gdy się Chrystus rodzi" (a Polish Christmas Carol which translates as "When Christ is being born"). I wrote two variations on this Polish Carol last year and you can find them here to become more familiar (if you want): There was some confusion in that thread about which Carol I was actually working on (LoL) owing to the fact that both of these Carol's prominently feature the Latin lyrics "Gloria in excelsis Deo". But that was basically the inspiration for putting them together in this mash-up. I painstakingly entered multiple stanzas of the Polish, English and Latin lyrics into the pdf score with all the correct accent marks and whatnot so let me know if it's clear! Thanks for listening and comments, suggestions, critiques or just observations are always welcome! Merry Christmas and I hope you enjoy listening! ☃️

Hi Peter, Really enjoy this one and it sounds especially calm when it’s much needed. Like Mike noted the two Melodies sound so well together just like any good counterpoint. Adding those flats near the end of each phrase really helps push the climax. Thx for sharing. Henry

Hello @J. Lee Graham: First, let address the technical issues. In the first movement, you have the viola jump from the jump positions a lot. This is technically hard for the player. You have E# in 3rd pos to 1st pos. It could easier, if this was you kept on the same pos. On a similar note, you can use the treble cleft when notes go to IV. It is easier to read without the legar lines. On the overall form, it does fit, with in the era you want to write for. Great job.

inspired by Adrian Von Ziegler check him out my fav Celtic artist

That’s true with the first clarinet part there’s sometimes where it gets very high. If I remembered correctly, I added some optional lower octave material just in case if that gets too much for them.

Hello @TheGreatEscaper and welcome to the forum! I love this Mazurka-like prelude you've written! It has so much individuality and character! It reminds me at different points of both Chopin and Prokofiev. The chromaticism is very dark and ominous. The fact that you play your own works is great as well (and apparently you've already played @ComposaBoi's sonata as well! Great job and it's great to see this kind of interaction! You're an asset to the forum!) Formally the piece is a perfect little miniature. The melody sounds like something out of another world when it comes in on the 7th and 11th of the tonality - it's very subversive and surprising harmonically and anything but ordinary. And the accompaniment is like its own melody too that sets the stage for a very ghastly piece that would've been appropriate as a Halloween-themed piece. Thank you for joining us and for sharing this prelude and I look forward to listening to the others! P.S.: Thank you for posting just one piece into the forum to let the reviewers get just a taste of perhaps one of your better pieces instead of suddenly bombarding the forum with a bunch of music indiscriminately! You don't know how many composers do this and it really annoys the people who commonly review others' works here because we don't know which piece to listen to and it turns the forum into a dumping ground for works.

p.s. i hope you don't mind, I attached a one-shot sightread of this piece. obviously a lot of mistakes as completely unpracticed, but I like playing through scores I like as it builds my familiarity + understanding of the piece. I think I feel less strongly about most of my above pieces of constructive feedback having played through the piece, other than still thinking that page 2 is unnecessarily floral for what is kind of a simple theme and the fugue does feel a little underdeveloped. Warning in advance that there are lots of mistakes but I think there are also lots of parts which alright and you might appreciate hearing someone else play through your music 🙂 you can hear me get a lot more confident at the recap -> coda I think.

I think the initial motif, consisting of one measure, is repeated too often (16 times). It then gives way to another motif in eighth notes that is also repeated many times. I don't think it's just a matter of repetition, but rather that limiting the motif to one measure results in a lack of musicality overall (there is no unity in the overall phrase). The cadenza suffers from something similar. On the other hand, there are some parts or moments where the writing is less suited to a real pianist than to MIDI-type sound. I think that if it were treated differently, in terms of accents and dynamics, it could be closer to a contemporary sound. Although the cadenza moves between a very classical style and a more naive one. In measure 85 there is a change, but the idea of the rhythmic ostinato remains throughout. The scherzo, in my opinion, is too fast. The trio promised a change, but the accompaniment is just as fast. At those speeds, which I don't know if they would cause fatigue in the performer, the musicality is lost (for me). I quite like the Lento, it has a predominantly quartal harmony that makes it very clear sonically. Some mega-chords in the left hand need to be rewritten using both hands. The change (transition) at bar 33 needs to be worked on, as it is simply an abrupt turn. The Allegro ma non troppo is also very good; it sounds very Mozartian. I think there are many different ideas, and a sonata is not just about taking different structures and placing them one after the other. Perhaps the complicated thing is to make it sound like a single thing.