apocryphal_oboe

You didn't. I was referring to VoodooChild & co's earlier, more inflammatory comments. Sorry I confused you there. @Heckel, sorry I keep mentioning your name just like you don't want me to. It's just that as far as I can tell we share very similar musical tastes and so I took all the flack pointed at you rather personally. I'll stop now, I promise. So this is the real heart of the debate. Should have been more obvious to me before. Interesting point. I still have to disagree though. I doubt most of the great composers of the past several hundred years took inspiration from ALL the music they heard. Take Mozart, for example. The man was an arrogant <not very nice name here>. He held most of his contemporaries in utter disdain. And he produced some of the most brilliant music the world has ever known, including my favorite oboe concerto (all right, it's a 3-way tie between Mozart's and Vaughn Williams' and Marcello's, but whatever). Maybe recent popular artists are more open minded than Mozart. I still like Mozart's music better. As for me personally, I can't get much out of hip hop because I find most the content so offensive I just won't listen to it. If I want rhythm + improvisation, some good jazz usually does the trick (and adds distinguishable pitches too, which are often, though not always, lacking in hip hop). I admit that the way things are worded in hip hop/rap flows really nicely, but that's about it, and I can't see how to apply that to my music personally. If that makes me a bad composer, sorry. I don't really see it changing any time soon. I wish that was true, but I see lots of people trying to tell me what I should listen to by way of such statements as "anyone who can't appreciate X genre is an idiot". As for the 2nd sentence, in all seriousness, I thought that that was the entire point of this topic before it got hijacked by the debate. Why we listen to (and write) the music that we do. If I was wrong then most of my original post was made under a false assumption.

My band director had us play an Eric Whitacre piece called "Godzilla Eats Las Vegas" and it was absolutely brilliant. I would encourage anyone who's never heard of it to go look it up, it's hilarious if done correctly. :P Some band directors do have a sense of humor. The other stuff we played on that concert was more avant-garde though, it's true. Dominicus is also right that if you want anyone to pay attention you should probably establish yourself first.

All right, this is for Composer Phil and anyone who wants a summary: I like classical music the best. It is more powerful and deep emotionally, to me, than any other music. I can't explain why, and trying would be pointless. I listen to other music too, and even like some of it, and maybe someday I'll grow to love it too like classical. So until then please stop telling me (and Heckel) I'm backwards and can't appreciate art. Edit: Thanks for the support, Tokke. :)

All right, this is a reply both to the topic and to the debate. I really want to put my two cents in here even though the debate seems to be fizzing out. First of all, background. I'm 18, just out of high school, about to start college as a non-music major. Music is something I love and write occasionally but I don't think it's my life's calling, so to speak. I'll continue to play the oboe in college, but as a chemical engineering major with about 110 non-elective hours to finish (despite massive AP credit >.<) I'm not sure how much music I can pursue. Anyway.... First of all, NYCheckelphone, you're a beast. I didn't even know what a heckelphone was until I was 15, lol. And I identify with you considerably. Or at least somewhat. Second of all, VoodooChild and Ferkungamabooboo, you both sound a lot like Rush Limbaugh. People don't want to listen to either of you for basically the same reason. Couch your messages in more civil terms, please. Jokes may be jokes, but jokes like that hurt people, get people angry, and destroy your credibility. (PS I'm not super liberal. I'm actually a moderate conservative. But I can't stand Rush Limbaugh </randomtangent>) Second of all, yes, I like like classical the best of any genre. By a lot. There's a good reason for this, although ultimately I can't explain it. Here's my musical story, and maybe I can answer some of the questions about "snobs" who "hate all music except classical." I remember as a young child, listening to my mom play the piano, and listening to music that was meant to imitate nature. I also listened to Wee-Sing Dinosaurs, and as any good 5 year old boy, I liked to pretend to be T-Rex and eat people. :D Soon, my mom was giving me piano lessons, but she was also sick and couldn't make me practice much (I was like 7 or 8). I stopped after a while. Long story short, I took piano on and off for a while, and joined band in middle school, but couldn't find any music I liked to listen to. Then I heard Dan Coates' arrangement of Pachelbel's Canon in D for piano (at about age 14) and something happened. I'd heard it before but something was different. Something inside me responded at a fundamental level. Here was a beauty I'd never heard before. That was when I really started to like classical music, when I became aware of its beauty and power. You have to dig a little to really get anything out of classical music, and I finally learned what that meant. From there, I was hooked. As for the genre debate, I first want to define what we're talking about as I understand it. For the purposes of the present discussion, “classical” seems to be any music written solely as art, ie art music, and “pop” seems to mean any music written/produced for more commercial/popular appeal purposes. So “pop” in this context also includes any other popular genre, ie rock, hip hop, etc, etc. Basically an “art vs popular music” debate, and the argument is “Why can't you appreciate popular music as art too?” vs “Well, art music is just... more artistic.” Before I give my opinion, let me say that I think any attempt to persuade or coerce someone into responding a certain way to any music when they've already listened to it and responded an entirely different way (“Why don't you like rock? You close-minded fool.” “I tried listening to it. I just don't.”) is itself close minded. Art is such a subjective thing that telling other people what they should or shouldn't think of it is often pointless. There's a book called Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance that argues that we all know what quality is, even if we can't define it. I beg to differ. We each have a slightly different definition of what quality is, so we can reach a lot of consensuses, but there are always bound to be dissenters, particularly in art. Now, why I like classical music the best. It's simple, really. I can't explain it. Classical music communicates to me with an emotional depth and clarity like no other type or style of music can. Does it do that all the time? Nope. Lots of the time I just listen and think “that sounds good” or “that's kind of boring.” Maybe I'll listen for harmonies, textures, whatever, but a lot of the time I come away fairly uninspired. Classical music also calms me and helps me focus to a certain extent, so I like that aspect too. But sometimes I make that deep emotional connection with the music, and then all I can do is cry and let it flood over me. I listen to classical music because sometimes that happens. That has never happened to me with any other style of music, even music with a fairly direct emotional content (like Josh Groban singing You Raise Me Up, for example). Classical is the only music that has ever made me cry. I can't explain this at all. Why should some arrangements of organized sound mean so much more to me than all the rest? I have no idea. They just do. I apologize if that offends you, but don't insult me over it. I do listen to other music sometimes though. In particular, since I'm finally almost fluent in Spanish, I've been listening to Latin music recently. I had a phase where I liked Rush a lot, a while back (which I'll admit is considerably deeper than most recent popular music). And my church sponsors youth dances, which I've attended since I was 14, where they play a lot of recent popular music. It's fun to listen to. You get the toe-tapping rhythm and beat that classical doesn't give. And the connection to dance helps. I don't like much country or swing, but can I tell you that swing dancing with an attractive member of the opposite sex (read: a pretty girl ;) ) is ridiculously fun? Best workout ever, I tell you what. But in the end the adrenaline, the beat, the fun, while it has its value, seems shallow and superficial compared to that rich, deep current of raw cathartic emotion I can get out of classical music sometimes. Again, I can't explain this. Maybe someday, I'll experience the same kind of emotion from other types of music as well. It seems like the depth at least could be there in groups like Rush, and Evanescence, although neither of these have really managed to evoke a deep emotional response in me. But for right now it just doesn't happen and you're wasting your breath to insult me or tell me I “should” feel something I honestly don't.

Imma try to bring this back on topic, and I haven't heard the oboe addressed well, yet. Range REALLY affects the oboe's timbre, as it does almost any wind instrument, but I feel like the oboe is especially affected. Oboe does not play a true pianissimo below about a low D. We try our best but the tone down in the lowest register requires a lot of air and pinching the airflow, an important techniques to produce a soft dynamic since changing air speed does crazy things to tuning, will result in the note not speaking at all. Be careful when writing for the oboe in a soft passage. For me as a general rule, higher notes are easier to control softly. I would much rather be playing a pp high G (like, double high G) than a p low Bb. The oboe has an insane number of register breaks. C-Db inside the treble clef staff transitions from low register to half-hole (the first register key is not pressed down, instead the left hand's pointer finger slides to half-open that key). Eb (D#) to E above that transitions to the first register key. It's a break that is not difficult, mostly because we practice it all the time, but it does make rapid alternation between, say D# to E, difficult. In fact, that D# to E transition is one of the most difficult half-steps on the instrument until you get up above high C. G# to A (first ledger line) switches to the second register key (Note, the switch happens from G to Ab on english horn, which is the only fingering difference I know of between the two instruments, though I haven't played english horn much at all). This is also not usually something to worry about, but again rapid transition between G# and A are not fun. It's a trill that's never really in tune. I would never write it. High C to Db is about equivalent to the same break on a clarinet. Meaning, try not to overdo it. High F to high F# is ANOTHER break, and not a fun one at all. Really high notes on the oboe-more than two octaves above middle C (which we call "low" C btw) Yes, it's perfectly fine to write for oboe above high E. I just graduated high school and I can reliably play a high G, and a good professional can probably reliably hit a high A. I've seen fingerings for Db above that (but please don't get any ideas unless, say, you personally know Eugene Izotov :toothygrin: ). Tuning might be an issue but the player can figure that out. Now, just so you know, the fingerings above high C royally suck. They're really complicated and a half-step slur could necessitate the movement of four or five fingers, or use of alternate fingerings that are almost certainly out of tune (exceptions: High Db-D, high E-F, which only move one finger). DO NOT write extended sixteenth note passages above high D. Only someone like John Mack could play it and sound halfway decent. Endurance/stamina is really a problem in this register as well; I wouldn't keep your oboist there for very long. Endurance/stamina I feel like an oboist has less endurance than most wind instruments. This is simply my personal experience, from "losing my embrochure" in band rehearsal before my peers, or playing Mozart's Concerto and knowing that I have all the technique down if I can just sustain my air and embrochure through the entire movement (I'm still working on some technique in the 3rd movement). Try not to keep us above the treble clef staff for forever, although we can sustain it for a good while. Please don't keep us in the highest register for very long; it requires a lot of control and stamina to sustain those tones for very long at all. To get a feel for the endurance of a good oboist, look at the first movement of Mozart's concerto (there are public domain copies floating around the web, and I even have one on my computer :toothygrin: ). Notice where Mozart gives the soloist a break, and try not to write passages of continuous playing for much longer than that. Trills/alternations not to write: Low Bb to B. This is just impossible. It's a really awkward slide of the left pinky. A higher Bb to B is possible, BUT it's also an awkward hand position, so add a rest at the end, not ornaments. G# (Ab) to A is possible but not very well in tune. Low C to low Db trill is supposed to be possible with an extra low C key but it requires an awkward finger position on a key that usually has a GIANT hole in it. I still can't reach the key without partially uncovering the hole (and then nothing speaks!). Repeated A to C or G to Bb is annoying. That's about it. A final interesting note that's vital for any general music teacher working with an ensemble that contains oboists: The double reeds are the ONLY wind instruments that DO NOT have any sort of tuning mechanism to physically adjust on their instrument. The oboe is designed to be played with all body pieces, and the reed, pushed all the way in. Never tell an oboist to adjust the position of their reed. They have to adjust their embrochure or get a better reed.

There's an orchestra, wind ensemble, opera singers, percussion ensemble, etc, etc, etc, all in my head. They're really freaking good. This is one reason I actually don't like it a lot when people play music around me. Usually it's popular music, which mostly bores me because I can often hear all the details, harmonies and textures in it, it's that simple (I, iv, IV, V, in half notes, repeat, anyone?). And it interrupts what was going on in my head, which was usually better (although, I can now sustain one musical line in my head even while other music is going on, and I'm working on more). And yes, I have to try and figure out what the heck they're playing. Usually the melody and some basic harmony is obvious, but there are so many little details in there (middle voices, small articulations, dynamics, and more) that figuring out how to write it all down is a chore. I haven't been able to do it very well; thus, I haven't ever finished a single orchestral piece (although I'm getting really close with one). My ear needs more training. I can sing any interval up to an octave from any pitch I hear, and I can figure out many chords, but finer shadings elude me. I'm hoping that I can get some help with this, and also with orchestration (which I've never had any formal lessons in) when I get to college in August. Now, I do write pieces at the piano. But those pieces are all for piano. And they're the ones where all I've got is a theme and I often rely on theory and playing around on the piano to develop it. Too bad I'm a terrible pianist, and I have wrist problems bordering on carpal tunnel that keep me from changing that. :thumbsdown: But, I had to choose between oboe and piano, and I like oboe better. Ok, sorry for that completely off-topic ramble. Hope I sorta answered your question. :happy:

Wow... Yeah, I'm still in high school... But I'm starting to challenge myself repertoire-wise. I'm almost finished learning my first concerto, the Mozart Oboe Concerto in C Major. I'm still working on parts of the third Mvt. And general stamina required to play the concerto all the way through. I also need a cadenza to the third movement (no, Mozart did not provide one). Once I've finished that I'm going to work on Alessandro Marcello's Concerto in D Minor and then I hope to finish the concerto/sonata I'm my for myself.

It's not a finale at all, but... General Dance from Borodin's Polovtsian Dances (WITH choir!!!). It's the part where the tympani comes in and the world explodes :D Performed by a competent orchestra, it is amazingly loud. I agree with Shostakovich 5 and a lot of the Beethoven Symphonies too, for the record. Oh, and a piece called Niagara Falls that my high school wind ensemble played at a state convention in January. That finale is pretty intense. I encourage anyone who hasn't heard it to look it up on YouTube; though the performances there are not amazing, they're not bad.

I meant to post here earlier, but I had to make sure I had heard all the recordings, and that meant finding a solid 40 min on the computer, since my ipod can't play recordings off of YC (I find this wierd, but whatever). $20 to whoever can send me a live recording of these. :D Seriously, this is hard. To Mr. Zach Eaton/SergeofArniVillage: Congratulations, you've written something that I have no hope of sight-singing, which is pretty rare :lol: Most of it is really excellent, there's just a few things I would change. The voicing can be kind of wierd at times-see mm 128 and 129 of the third movement for a quick example. I'm not doing an in-depth analysis, since it is beyond my power, and maybe the way you have it written makes the voice leading more clear, but look at the first half of m. 128. Why not just make one group of eighth note chords? Especially when multiple voices are on the same note (see the second eighth note, right hand, m 128. Why the double f?). Combining them would make the score more clear. The other thing is that you repeat yourself a good deal in each movement. Cutting out some (not all, but some) of the repetition would make the piece easier and more enjoyable to listen to. By no means cut out any themes or passages entirely, since they're all really good, just their copies ;) That's what Alessandro meant, I think, when he said it was too long. I don't have any suggestion as to how you would accomplish said cutting out, that's for you to figure out if you think I'm right ;) My favorite part has to be the black key glissandi. Too bad they didn't pop out in the midi like they should. I also really liked how you worked all the themes into the end of the third movement. Anyway, this was really fun to listen to overall, just the repetition got in the way a little bit. Hope that helped some.

Well, I learned something new today: There are lots of free apps for m4a to mp3 conversion. Done. I needed one of those too, so thanks for forcing me to it It's not the best recording in the world, but it sure beats midi, I think.

This piece took shape over the greater part of two years, and was my first full piece. When you look at the score, please don't wonder if I know what an accidental is. The piece really didn't call for any.I am unable to upload a recording, since the only recording equipment I have is my mom's iPhone which records directly to .m4a, although I can email a .m4a recording if you'd like. Sunrise on Ice

Overall, I like it. I'm questioning whether or not you've analyzed your own work, though. The piece is definitely in g minor, not Bb major. Also, there are a few 'reading' issues with your chords (see measure 5 for one example-the third of a D major chord is F#, not Gb). The ending, as far as what I hear in my head, sounds unresolved, because your final chord is D major, V in g minor. You need a fermata and a soft g minor chord at the end. Unless you were going for the unresolved feeling, which may or may not work. That's an artistic decision my taste would argue against, but I'm not you.

I just joined the forum today, and I would love to do this :D I play oboe fairly well (playing Mozart's Concerto in C Major, first 2 movements for an upcoming competition), and I sing tenor/baritone (I can't hit below a G2 very well). I can also play clarinet for future reference. What would you like from me?