Ezra Donner

Some great points, U238. Terms like "tonal" and "atonal" seem to imply that a piece of music has to be only one or the other, but there is a lot of good music that can be described equally well (or equally poorly) by either term, depending on who you ask. I share your frustration and agree that there are many better words that can be used when talking about music.

:happy:

Stay classy, U238.

Fair enough, U238--who are the composers who get you excited?

hehe :P

This year marks the Centennial of the birth of American composer Irving Fine (1914-1962). Fine belonged to the first generation of American composers born in the Twentieth Century, along with Aaron Copland, Virgil Thomson, Samuel Barber, Leonard Bernstein, and many others who left their indelible mark on the history of American classical music. Fine's music was widely praised among his colleagues: Copland wrote of its "elegance, style, finish and a convincing continuity," and that it "wins us over through its keenly conceived sonorities and its fully realized expressive content." Thomson spoke of Fine's "unusual melodic grace." For more about Fine and his music, click here.

Hi Ken320, It looks like there has already been a bit of discussion about the post you linked to, but in summation I would say there is good atonal music and bad atonal music, just as there certainly exists good tonal music and bad tonal music. My argument, though, is that these terms are not the most useful anyway. It's tempting to think of the world is divided into just two camps, but I believe there is a large portion of the musical spectrum that is not really very well-described by either term. Thanks for your reply. Yours, Ezra http://www.music-composition.org

Sounds very interesting, p7rv! Let us know how it goes! Ezra http://www.music-composition.org

Hi Connor! So cool to find you here. It's late now, so I'll wait until tomorrow to write a slightly longer response, but it sounds like you and I are on the same page about a lot of these issues. Some of the best advice I received, indirectly, from a teacher was similar to something you say: "Write what you like!" I have always tried to be honest with myself and write the music that I would like to hear first and foremost. Thanks for your kind words and keep in touch. Yours, Ezra http://www.music-composition.org

Hi KJthesleepdeprived, Yeah, I can imagine that is a difficult tightrope to walk. For what it's worth, I don't believe any music is inherently "holy" or "unholy"--it's in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. I don't know what denomination your church is, but if anyone asks, you can always introduce them to the sacred music of Stravinsky or Messiaen, both deeply religious composers. Ezra http://www.music-composition.org

Hi Austenite, It's unfortunate that you've had to endure claims like this. You are not alone! I have been the recipient of a good deal of criticism in the past, some of it actually fairly severe, and it always hurts, but whenever possible I try to consider the source. I am glad that this forum seems to be such a supportive community in any event. "Mastery" is always the goal for all of us, but who among us can ever claim to have achieved "mastery"? As T.S. Eliot said, "For us, there is only the trying." Ezra http://www.music-composition.org

For many living composers, the response to this question might be something like: "Short answer, 'no' with an 'if,' long answer, 'yes' with a 'but.'" But before we start assigning labels, let's discuss what terms like "tonal" and "atonal" really mean. "Atonal music" in its narrowest usage refers to those works of composers Arnold Schoenberg (1874-1951), Anton Webern (1883-1945), and Alban Berg (1885-1935), composed in or after the second decade of the Twentieth Century, and pre-dating all three composers' adoption of the twelve-tone technique. Berg once attributed the coinage of the term "atonal" to the words of a newspaper critique, and the term itself has long since carried certain pejorative connotations. Another, somewhat broader definition, includes both these works and works of music composed using the twelve-tone technique. This technique was pioneered by Schoenberg and others in the 1920's, and was soon adopted by Webern, Berg, and later numerous composers of serious music in Europe and throughout the world of Western music composition. A third, broader still definition, includes all music in which tonal centers are sufficiently ambiguous. Under this definition, many works by Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Copland, Bartók, Shostakovich, and others are sometimes described as "atonal." This third definition is perhaps the most widely used, but also the most problematic. The term is not commonly applied, for example to noise music; nor music for unpitched percussion instruments; music composed using elements of chance and aleatory techniques; experimental music; microtonal music; or other forms of musical expression falling outside the dominion of Western art music of the Twentieth and Twenty-First Centuries. Its usefulness as an aesthetic term must therefore be seriously called into question. What is "tonal music"? The term as used today broadly refers to music composed with tonal centers, or one or more focal pitches considered "stable" with regard to the others. Often this also means the use of familiar harmonic patterns, or "harmonic progressions," typical of the music of the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries. The term as used today, though, perhaps only exists usefully as an antithesis to "atonal music"; as conventionally defined it does not include non-Western musics, nor Western music composed before the Mature Baroque, and its application in folk music traditions or popular styles is highly suspect. The one thing that all of these various definitions have in common is their emphasis on composer intent. "Atonal" and "tonal" do not necessarily represent meaningful expressions of listener experience, in my opinion, which I believe should be a part of any meaningful discourse about music. Instead, I advocate the adjudication of any musical expression on its own terms, in its own proper context, and with the use of descriptive terms such as "plaintive," "haunting," "lyrical," "energetic," etc. Needless to say, any discussion of music on these terms will be subjective to a greater or lesser extent; but the search for absolute, objective truths in a pursuit as rich as music will always lead to a dead end. A quote from the author George Orwell, originally written with regard to various conflicting philosophies of government in the Twentieth Century, seems uncannily appropriate if the words "tonal" and "atonal" are substituted for the terms "democracy" and "fascism": Leave a comment below and click here to continue the discussion!

Hi friends, Ezra Donner here, coming to you from Bloomington, Indiana. As a holiday present, please enjoy 3 free mp3 downloads from my latest album, Steel Sky! Featuring original works for solo piano composed 2009-2011. Just visit this page to download your music: http://www.ezradonner.com/free-download/ Yours, Ezra

I love Ives. Two works of his I can recommend are "General William Booth Enters Into Heaven" (voice and piano) and Two Contemplations (orchestra). Ives' father, George Ives, gave his son some words of wisdom that represent, in my opinion, a truly wonderful philosophy of music. Referring to the off-key singing of the town blacksmith, the elder Ives advised: "Look into his face and hear the music of the ages. Don't pay too much attention to the sounds--for if you do, you may miss the music. You won't get a wild, heroic ride to heaven on pretty little sounds." For listeners trying to connect with Ives' music for the first time, this may be a great place to start. Ezra

Hi! I also think that if you want to look at some of Mozart's later symphonies, your time will not be wasted. :) Here are some links to Mozart's Symphony No. 40 in G minor: Orchestra version: http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/ac/IMSLP273436-PMLP01572-III._Zweiter_Fassung.pdf Piano (2-hand) version: http://javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/5/50/IMSLP14035-Mozart_-_KV550_Symphony_No40__pno_arr_August_Horn_.pdf It might be interesting to compare the original orchestral version and this arrangement for piano solo. You may find that many of the orchestral textures are simply 3- or 4-part counterpoint, with added octave doublings. Be well and keep us posted! Ezra