Beethoven guy

I am glad that finally people start to realize that scores are as important as sound files, if not more important. For all those who want to be a review of their "sound", well ... I have higlighted why sound files alone are dangerous to judge a "sound"; I remember vividly the first time I read a score of the 10th symphony by shostakovitch; the recording revealed things I would not have been able to recreate not knowing how it was done. So all those who say that scores are not necesarrily and are only after sound ... sorry but it's bullshit. better protection: I agree, but how it is done seems tobe difficult.

It is indeed nice to have a score with a piece to follow along. "But it's not like I can't hear certain things they do": it is not as much the form as the sonority: I bet you that you would have trouble as well re-orchestrating a Mahler symphony or a Ravel orchestral work due to the harmonizations and the instruments used in Div; hence for all these things (view thread above) it is useful.

Waw! I stand in awe for you and humbly bow my head. Reading your posting you cannot but belong to the three most well-known composers of the world. What we are looking to analyze, is what is not heared or clearly heared when listening to your music file. Personally, I have been standing in front of the orchestra long time enough to know from experience that not everything your hear in a computergenerated melody sounds the same in real life, nor is it heard as such when performed by a live orchestra. I am not a computer genious but I guess it also has to do with the sound library and generating program you use. Furthermore, I am a bit puzzled by your posting. This is what you write: "The last thing I want is another composer, whose opinion I did not ask for, tell me that I missed a mezzo forte marking in the second oboe part. I am the composer: let me handle the specifics.". If you do not like other composers to point out where you are wrong or what you did right, why then are you on this forum. We are here to learn from eachother as I pointed out before and as others pointed out as well. Mutually we fertilize eachother. As for the posting of scores: the above thread clearly illustrates that there are as many pro's as contra's to posting scores; personally I belong to the pro side as there is no music without scores except for the music intendedly conceived as such; A painter paints paintings, a writer writes books. We are no Michelangelo's who are content with resolving a preset difficulty after which we can leave the sculpture alone; a painter without paintings is no painter, never mind how vividly he can talk about his supposed painting, a writer without books is not a writer never mind how detailed the analyse is he makes. With regard to the score posting issue: it is not because in the US of A copyright is automatically insured when posting a score here on the computer, that this rule is valid in other parts of the world. I have pointed out that this is not the case in larger parts of Europe, for that matter (see previous posts). Furthermore, copyright protected or not, one has never the certainty that a work is not to be copied by somebody else who lives in a completely different part of the world. And guess what? Chances of being caught for that matter are very slim, because a) you are not that well known so that people all over the world would immediately recognize your style hence your music; b)the chance that the composition of the one who actually stole your music is perfomed numerous times in his own country as well as abroad on a world tour is verly slim as well; c) as pointed out previously by someone else: even when copying can clearly be established, few judges are concerned with copyright issues all depending on how famous you are; d) as for all these people who always say that they do not post score but only sound files: perhaps it would take a bit more time - I admmit - but when you really want to "copy" a tune, you sit down, play the fragment and write it out yourself. So, where is your copyright protection then? There is absolutely no way of securing your work; the only way to do so is to leave it in an ivory tower and only talk about it, not posting neither a sound file nor a score. Last thought: When looking on the internet, several composers who are actually well know - for this you only have to consult that database of Living modern composers - all have scores posted on their site. A mere reflection: how comes that people who are really active professionally in the field of music have no problems adding scores to their site open to everybody to see, consult, print, .... them whereas here, there is such an issue of posting scores on the site. Mikis Theodorakis, the world know Greek composer - has his entire musical archive on the net. You can print the original handwritten files and do with it whaterver you want. Is he afraid of copyright? Do not guess so, otherwise he would for sure protect his works. You can print and copy his works, and yes... among them are several unknown ones, especially youth compositions, even to those who had the pleasure of conducting several of them. Does he care or does he relinquish of putting them online? As said before, there is absolutely no way of a 100 % protecting your work, unless your lock it in a safebox and never let anyone look at it. Being copies is one of the risks of being active in arts, yet ... look at it this way: being copied also means that you are good and worthwhile copying; otherwise people would not do so. Generally I have started to believe that - as mentioned already previously - those who "finally managed" to put a tune down, are those who are the least willing to open up their cupboard for others to see and those who are really talented do not have any problems whatsoever have a look at what they are doing. BG

He is indeed suggesting what you so adequatly illustrated above, because he is very much against the original idea - at least that is how he understood it - of DMA that the score could only be seen by those members which were selected by the author (cf the list of members posted by DMA who would be entitled to view his scores), in his opinion this is not how sites like this should function. NEvertheless, he understands the need of certain composers for a kind of protection, hence he could settle - even thinks its logical to some extent - that a score should only be visible to registered logged in members, not to visitors or by people who are randomly passing-by. BG

Putting it like this I can understand and am even for rather than against the idea which DMA has put up before. A 'minimum kind of protection is always good, but in this does not mean, you select those who can see your score. What would be an idea is that the score is limited to those who have in one way or another, contributed to this site, so that score viewing cannot be done by non-registered members. BG

@SIWI perfectly summarized my point of view elaborating on my thoughts. Thank you! That is exactly what I mean, especially the last phrase: good music jumps as much from the score as from a sound file and indeed, some things cannot be detected if you do not have the score by hand, as you so adequatly demonstrated in the few given examples that is exactly why I hammer so much on having a socre posted along with the soundfile, eventhough as a conductor my ears are still fine. @ DMA: you sound/look 'scared' as hell that somebody would 'steal' your music. I have not yet listened to any of your scores but they either must be excellent to the extreme or a second possibility, you must not have much inspiration so you cling to the inspiration you have. There is no waterproof system for nobody, neither for the professional, nor for the amateurs. That is the risk of being an artist, it always has been and for some time to come, it still will be. You cannot expect to be known and respected as a writer if you do not write down books but just recitate books (oral tradition in the west, although still existing in some parts of the world, I know) is not in practice anymore or at least far from common; you cannot be known and respected as a painter if the only thing you do is buying blank canvases giving them the names of your imagined , .... . Admittedly there are types of music which do not require scores, I know that, but... that was not the initial starting point of this whole discussion. We were dealing here with the 'traditional' (by lack of a better word in my vocabulary) type of music which generally is laid down in a score. For reasons I mentioned at large and again throughout this thread supplemented by other postings such as the one by SIWI, I remain at my point of view: a score is necessary, as a written down book is necessary for a writer and a painted canvas is necessary for a painter; we are not different, we do not make an exception. One of the issues causing this 'eager' to not to post scores could perhaps have to do with using the computer for composing purposes. About 30 years ago, when studying music, you wrote and rewrote a score, until it was perfect. The chances of having it performed, let alone published, were slim. You could call yourself lucky when, in composition class, you had the chance of having your work 'performed' in a try-out by some fellow students or the choir of the royal conservatory (equals high school for music), very rarely you it was performed by an orchestra. Perhaps the circumstances were not ideal for studying compostion or orchestration, but the only thing we had to discuss was the score. If there would have been no score, there would not have been much to discuss. So we sat down, analysed and discussed scores of the Great and the less great as well as new works of are fellow students. You always started off by making a pianoscore even when the work was intended for a large orchestra. Orchestration was taught for a large part using piano reductions: you either reduced a composition to a piano score or you used a reduced piano score and you listened to a disc trying to identify which music played what after which you tried to put it on paper and compared your results to the original composition. You not only learned to read orchestral scores, but also learned which instruments played together, which instruments sounded great, less great, which effects could be obtained and how certain composers achieved certain effects in their works. Again, it was not perhaps the best way to study orchestration, yet learned you to listen and listen again, to rewrite, correct and write again. Music notation software has the advantage of producing 'instant music': you can hear immediately what you write down. I admit voluntarely that music software has its advantages, but as always it has it advantages when used as it should be used. What I have seen on this and other sites - or in school for that matter - are very easily satisfied. People make here compositions for large orchestra, when they have not even tried out their skills on minor forms. An idea comes in their mind and ok... that is it, we go on to the next bar. A guy once said to me about one of his compositions on sibelius: 'I know it is not good, but I have written it and I am not going to change it.' So, if you know it is not good on forehand, what is the use of posting it? So we produce, produce and produce like work on a chain. Could it be that those who are so reluctant not to post scores here, are also those who are producing scores llike three in a hour? As for myself, I do not post scores here because there are not digital scores to be posted. I still write music the way I learned it, oldfashion perhaps, but it still works for me: making a pianoscore, going to the desk and copying it out for the instruments it is intended for. OK, I sometimes have to rework bits and parts after a first try-out, but I think it gives me a good instrumental orchestration feeling, something which I often lack in compositions presented here. And yes, ... it gives me the possibility of having a clear overview of structure and so on in a nutshell. In short, this is perhaps why I insist so much on having scores presented here: it supplements eachoter as is pointed out by other people. It are not two different seperate things but form one element.

Do not have much time for an elaborate answer, yet would like to point out a couple of things: Why should I get over it? This is a forum dealing with music. It is a forum where people can discuss the work of others. If you do not have a score, you are not a composer but an improvisor. There is nothing wrong with that, Beethoven, Mozart used to improvise a lot. Composing music is writing down your music using a - whatever - notation system, so other people can perform it. I remain at my point of view: having music posted with a score should be obligatory. Personal thought: your label said your are a moderator. As a moderator - but that me be due to my knowledge of the English language, which is different for a non-native speaking person as for speaking person - you give the impression of being rude and impolite. I have as much right to be on this forum as you and to express my opinions and defend my ideas as much as you. I do not need a bullying sounding "huh". 2) as a moderator, but perhaps also that is changed, I always thought one should remain objective, which in your case is not the case.

Hence you would select members, thus eliminating a fair chance for an objective review, I am very sure of that. Secondly, I suggest the rules of this forum are to be changed then, if people refuse to post scores. Henceforthward it should be no score no posting music. It is as simply as that. Music is a combination of sound and literature (notes), not just sound! I agree one does not need to save a score on the computer, one could also read a score on the computer. I agree with you on this point. bg

My thoughts exactly. It is what I have been saying from in the beginning.... As for the rest ... there is no perfect watertight system against copying anything. Look deep into yourself: is all the software you use legal? Do not you know anybody who uses illegal software? Never mind how hard it is, somewhere somehow, ... it can be copied or cracked. As for the rest, nobody has a control over what is been copied and performed as somebody else's his own. In sum: let us beheave as adult grown-ups not as spoiled little children. There is no way of preventing someone of stealing something, not even when you post your music only by a soundfile; a trained ear will just take the trouble of sitting down and copying things by listening to the recording a dozen times. Hence.... why just not make life simple and post a score together with the music. It makes those, who are interested in reading scores first and listen to the recordings later, lifes much easier. BG

My thoughts exactly. It is what I have been saying from in the beginning.... As for the rest ... there is no perfect watertight system against copying anything. Look deep into yourself: is all the software you use legal? Do not you know anybody who uses illegal software? Never mind how hard it is, somewhere somehow, ... it can be copied or cracked. As for the rest, nobody has a control over what is been copied and performed as somebody else's his own. In sum: let us beheave as adult grown-ups not as spoiled little children. There is no way of preventing someone of stealing something, not even when you post your music only by a soundfile; a trained ear will just take the trouble of sitting down and copying things by listening to the recording a dozen times. Hence.... why just not make life simple and post a score together with the music. It makes those, who are interested in reading scores first and listen to the recordings later, lifes much easier. BG

Ok good idea! Lets go for it ! Except .... imagine someone likes your score, someone really does like it, what prevents him from copying it? The fact that it is far more tricky to print it? He/She does need to print it, He/she opens his/her computer on finale, sibelius, whatever and just starts to copy the score, note after note.... It may take a while, that is true, but if it is worth for that person, why should not he/she do not do it? So... your system is far from waterproof, but it was a good attempt.

Cannot but repeat what I have stated above: a score is as necessary as a soundfile because both complement eachother. I agree that a score can 'deceive', yet I am very much convinced that a soundfile can 'deceive'. Hence... music is a combination of both notes (= scores) and sounds (=soundfile) or are you going to deprive somebody who reads a book, the letters which make up the words so he just has the soundfiles in future to 'read'? It is exactly the same. Scores say things soundfiles do not say, soundfiles give already give you an interpretation - whether or not created by computer is a different thing - yet the eye, the memory, the intellect I think also want a piece of the cake, unless we are all becoming robots without an original self-functioning intellect, eye or memory, without any imagination as to how to perform certain passages in a score and so on....

Why lol? people present here, are minor musical geniuses... the good ones, are like donuts: they will surface in the end.

One of the important issues is been touched upon here, quite frequently even, in the last postings. A lot of people seems indeed a little witholding posting scores here due of the copyright issues. Apart from the point taken from the Baxter-Williams case, there are numerous other examples which can be quoted here. Problem with copyright is indeed that there is no solid proof, watertight system. Moreover, those who relinquish posting scores here, because they are afraid it might be stolen, those who believe posting a score here would make it copyright protected, ... in numerous countries in the world, posting a score on a sites like these including Finale Showcase, Sibeliusmusic. com, does not make it copyright protected; it even does not proove that you are the original composer of the score; it actually does not proove anything. Furthermoren if A would be living in Greece, e.g., and would take a copy of a work posted here by a Brazilian composer, have it performed as its own, ... what are the changes that that exact person would ever find out? ... None of those present here is that well known to have a premiere published on page 1 of the world international press. And even if one would steal the work of a world composer - if I would take music from e.g. Theodorakis and rework it as my own - what are the changes of Theodorakis ever finding out? Few... Copyright, is a very delicate, very elusive issue. For sure, if one continues to do so, he will for sure be caught at a given moment although this may take a long time, although this does not mean he will be condemmed: magistrates know indeed very little of music as has often been proved in the past. Computer appliances have their limitations and personally, I do not think it is the job of any of the reviewers here, to send an email confirming your copyright. Yet, I do hold on to my idea that it would be more than useful to have a score posted together with a midi file, as indeed, music written is different from music heard, even for those who claim that it trains the ear. It is much more difficult to judge a composition on its quality by only listening to the sound of it; especially as the files posted here are made by the computer where instruments have the capability of playing everything, even the umplayable: out of range, technically unplayable, and so on. People in support of having their scores only visible for their friends... sorry I think this does not work. You limit your views to those of whom you already know they will give you a good review, even if it sucks. Admit that those who post music here are minor composers: they do not belong to the world leading class; I do not find a Rutter, a Zimmer, a Brewaeys, a Groslot, a Theodorakis and so on on this site; even when their music sounds swell and even looks good. So, let us all make our lives easier and have a score published together with its music. One thought to end: what is original, what is borrowed? Schumann based his piano concerto on Grieg, who took Beethoven as a source. For sure Schumann has known followers and all concertos start off in more or less the same way. Is Schumann's concerto not original? Did not day say the same of Brahms' first symphony? ...

Well, matters of opinion can vary... you yours, I mine. I hear enough thank you very much, yet ... why put out a rule, if nobody follows it... Anyway, as said, matters of opinion can vay. As to the black and white: agreed, music is all about emotions and feelings and so on; yet this topic had nothing to do with emotions and feelings, it is a pure rational thing: there either is or is not a score, it is a simple as adding 1 and 1 together and I guess we both would end up with two, no?