Jazzooo

I'm sure this will have limited appeal, but it's one of my favorite compositions--Big n' Tall. This version was filmed at a benefit concert I co-hosted with the other keyboardist, the Julliard-trained Ken Bichel. The opening few minutes are completely improvised, of course. I used to perform this all the time with my live trio in San Diego and the improvs were not usually this dreamy or disjointed, but what the heck--it's live! I layered two sounds on my synth--a gritty, electric guitar-like one with a synchronized delay, and a warm ambient pad that I brought in and out with a volume pedal. Big n' Tall, by Doug Robinson with Ken Bichel Some good rhythmic stuff between us, I think. Thanks, Doug

Thanks, beef--so who was playing? I hear live jazz a lot, mostly from behind the piano these days but there are some outstanding players where I live.

Thanks, Guac! I love the comparison, although when I wrote this I had only heard of Bela Fleck and never actually heard him--but the idea of using banjo intrigued me. Most of the harmonics are sampled, though some are real on the fretless. I appreciate you listening.

That's even more impressive then--I'm a really good drum programmer myself, but I'm also a drummer. Beautiful work! Doug

Not exactly jazz, but I am a jazz musician first and foremost and this odd little piece reflects it. 04 Little Train.mp3 From 1994, by the way. I'm playing keys, percussion, guitars, fretless bass and my wife and I are the vocalists. Hope it grooves you to some degree! Doug

There is so much to enjoy in this arrangement, Sebastian. It's really good, surprising, well-executed. Who is playing what? If this isn't 100% complete, and if if I can pick a nit--the snare sounds like it has a bit of either a gated or small room reverb, and it makes it sound just a tad dated (the sound was very big in the '80s and since you're using a lot of synths, best to make the rhythm section sound more modern--something warner and slightly longer). No worries if you're finished--it rocks and holds together just fine. The drummer is certainly a fan of Dave Weckl, isn't he? Great job, man. The fade out--I would have rather heard you come up with an ending, since you have some many other great ideas. Doug

By the way, Nicola, that was a fun analogy.

In that case, feel free to stop talking about it then. For me, it's been the most interesting discussion I've participated in since I joined YC and I hope others will continue to chime in. As a sax player, I'd be curious to know what you think of the audio samples I put up, but if you're done with the topic I'll understand.

Man, I can't believe that this conversation was going so well, yet no one has apparently listened to an actual musical example. Trust me, guys--it's good stuff. :)

Sounds good to me! Nice talking with you.

"And if you live rurally, just mail order!" Well, there is rural and there is rural--I live in central rural mexico, and the nearest big box is not a very big box, an hour away. Since FW800 ain't exactly happening down here--Mac is barely happening and LCD monitors run $400US for the same thing you'd pay $200 for in the states, and mail order takes extra time and costs extra delivery and duties on top of that, and it is a scallop to send anything back if it is faulty...are you really sure you don't want to just admit that removing FW400 ports from their new generation was a bonehead thing to do, and inconvenient for some of us? ;) seriously it's not the end of the world, but it's not an upgrade either. it's a cutback, plain and simple. "It also has a bigger hard drive, a faster and architecturally superior CPU, faster system bus, a greater amount of RAM running at a higher speed, and two graphics cards SLI'd together." Faster and architecturally superior? I don't know, but my MBP never had a problem handling Logic with a couple dozen tracks running at the same time. if it's speed I didn't need, why pay extra for it now? And buying a new generation MBP would definitely be paying extra, compared to buying current or last generation--you'd pay maybe as much as $1000 less for the latter. And if it works, what is the problem with that? " I agree reflective screens are annoying, but I can't help but think you are being slightly myopic over the whole issue." Ok, here is where we differ and it may be because I come from a position of being a professional recording engineer. I can tell you have not spent time at any recording/engineering forums to hear the overwhelming outrage that Apple chose to change their screens without a single thought to people who do actual work on them. My screen is not a minor tool--it is the one thing I look at more than anything else--more than my piano, my synths, my mixer and so on. if you think I would pay full price for a larger hard drive--when by the way, most serious music-makers don't ever use the internal drive to record on--speed I was happy without AND a screen I don't like, then once again I have to question whether you're really thinking of the person's needs or just a blind determination to have the newest model at any cost. Remember, the original poster is a musician who wants to do some sequencing and maybe record a track or two of audio. A Mac Pro or a MacBook Pro from 2006 would probably overwhelm him with power and abilities. 2007, maybe even better. 2008, sure, why not? But waiting till the next 2009's come out? I still don't know why you'd recommend that. " wouldn't normally recommend instant adoption of new technology, as there is almost certainly scope for short term depreciation - except in the case of new Apple machines, whose prices tend to remain static for months." I got a very good deal for a fully warranty'd and loaded dual quad MacPro that happened to be used for a few months once the new ones came out a few months back.

We can probably go on forever, but I'm good for one or two more responses seeing as we all have different priorities anyway. "Quote: So do these statements seem contradictory to you too?" "Not really, since Firewire 800 is backwards compatible with Firewire 400 devices provided you have an adaptor or 6-pin to 9-pin cable. The inclusion of an actual 400 port is more a practical consideration." Lol--to me, lowering the price but making you buy an adaptor is a bit of a cheat when saying "New and improved!" And if you live in an isolated area, as I do, not always that practical to find one. "It's strange since so many graphic designers and other visual artists use Mac as their platform." Talking about the 'New and Improved!" screen on the MBPros...again, there is yet another situation where the older model will definitely be superior than the new one. Let's see now, the new one has a slightly larger hard drive than mine, but I have to buy an adaptor and I can't stand the screen reflectivity...hard choice! ;) "My point was in aid of attaining maximum value for money, though..." I believe that maximum value for the money is never achieved by buying new. There is instant depreciation on an item once it walks out that door. If you buy it in the parking lot before the buyer gets to his car, you'll probably save a couple of bucks. If you buy it a month after he has used it, you'll save even more. And if you buy it a month after the new ones come out, with the screens you wouldn't want to use anyway, you'll save a lot more. Same great value as it was 6 months earlier, but you're paying $500 less for it.

"I strongly believe that the listener should ignore the titles that the composer has given to the pieces, and come up with their own." That's nice that you believe we should, but it doesn't work that way. Nice work, though it seemed very aggressive which I never got used to, given the title.

I think a couple of recorded examples will probably help clarify some of the definitions and ideas of this discussion. Try this link: 01 Tee Bag.mp3 The first song is Nascente, not a jazz composition but a Brazilian one. And if I might direct your attention to a few specific aspects... There is a chordal structure that all five musicians are following. However, as you listen to the soloists (First MIchael Brecker who plays the meoldy on tenor sax, then Pat Metheny on guitar synthesizer, then Herbie Hancock on acoustic piano and then Brecker again), you're certain to notice that they take long deviations from the written chord progression, instead playing *around* it in ways that are common to jazz improvisers. Second, notice the drum part (played by the great Jack DeJohnette). The band has obviously discussed the rhythmic feeling it wants, but his part is almost completely improvised--he doesn't even hit all of the same breaks the rest of the players do. yes, he maintains an 8th note pulse on his cymbals throughout, but listen to the many variations he is *spontaneously* throwing in, in order to inspire the featured soloist. This recording of Nascente is the perfect example for me of collective jazz improvisation within the framework of a composition--adhere to it, ignore it, modify it, all spontaneously but always with one ear on your other players so that if you move off the grid for a few moments, they either go with you or at least respond in a way that you feel free enough to explore an idea, knowing they will be there when you return. The second link on that page is Tee Bag, an outrageously fun blues romp also featuring Michael Brecker on sax, along with Don Grolnick on piano (my hero), Steve Gadd on drums (another hero), Eddie Gomez on bass and Mike Manieri on vibes. I strongly urge you to stick around till the sax solo and open your ears up to hear the dialogue between the sax and the drums. To me, it's again one of the premiere examples of how within the context of a given song structure, two or more musicians can spontaneously create something intimate, powerful, musical that goes far beyond what the composer ever dreamed of. And remember, all these musicians are seeing is a chord sheet and in the case of the sax, a melody line which he is free to play or not play or twist any way that feels right to him at the moment. The rest of what you're hearing? All improvised in the moment, again within the parameters of the chord progression and the genre--the shuffle rhythm in the blues, for example. Not that all jazz sounds like this; not that classical music doesn't feature some improvisation from a soloist once in a while. But be honest with yourself--when was the last time you heard what you're hearing here in a piece of classical music? And could the finest classical violinist ever simply do what Michael Brecker is doing, just by virtue of wanting to? 99% of all jazz players cant, so why would he be able to?

"As many people have pointed out earlier in this thread, the music of today is chock full of your definition of improvisation. " I'm not trying to be a smart donkey, but I must have missed the examples. I saw people referring to legends about people who are dead and buried centuries ago like Mozart and others. But I think you're misunderstanding my definition of improvisation, used in the sense of jazz improvisation. It's far more collective than non-jazz musicians seem to appreciate--when I am improvising, so is my drummer and my bassist, within the parameters of the genre and the composition. It is interactive. It is not where the orchestra stops while the cellist explores some themes for a minute, and then everyone goes back to what is written on the page. The other thing that is so striking to me about jazz improvisation, and I was just showing a student the other day, is that a jazz player can take any note and make it make sense, by touch, timing, or even just going for the dissonance. I demonstrated by playing F below middle C under an E above C. Play them loudly, it sounds challenging at best, but play them the right way in the right context and you've got a gorgeous interval with pulsating harmonics. I have heard improvised classical cadenzas, and they tend to stay between the lines as opposed to exploring dissonance.