Major Works forum: open floor for discussion

[Nightfly]

Perhaps there should be a whole different way of judging major works. Something that will not arose any more arguments. But how ?

Maybe it should be reviewed by a panel of more experienced musicians before being posted to major works section. But then again the whole thing might repeat itself..

[Guest QcCowboy]

Perhaps there should be a whole different way of judging major works. Something that will not arose any more arguments. But how ?

Maybe it should be reviewed by a panel of more experienced musicians before being posted to major works section. But then again the whole thing might repeat itself..

but that is exactly what happens now.

a panel of reviewers has been chosen.

they are the ones who make the decisions.

the major problem is that either solution (1. a panel of "judges", or 2. free-for all) is never completely satisfactory, at least to some people.

[rolifer]

I know I am signing my own death warrant here, but I have to comment.

From what I have seen so far (and I have looked at and listen to most of the pieces in Major works), this is the criteria for placement there:

1 You must have a low member number.

or

2 You must have a minimum of $5000 dollars worth of equipment ( the more the better)

or

3 You must know someone in the forum with the power.

or

4 Have a grad degree

or

5 Have a live recording

or 6 You must have a low member number

Yes, I repeated one for emphasis

I have seen many works posted in other catagories that are just as good if not better than those in Major. Some of these works are obviously considered by the composer to be a major accomplishment for them. Some have been composed over long stretches of time. But if not displayed with a minimum of GPO, these works disappear quickly. There will never be a post allowed in Major if it is written in Notepad.

Much of this gets transfered into the other catagories as well. Many threads get posted with zero comments. What is the point of this forum? I see new members come and go quickly for this very reason. Or on thier first post they are cut to pieces with the criticism. Only lately have some determined individuals got together and decided that zero comments on any given piece is unacceptable.

There are many members here that post their works and then only comment in that thread. They never make any comments on other members posts. There are numerous websites for just showing off ones works, I thought this site was more. I decided that those who do this practice do not need any input whatsoever from me, so I ignore them and their posts. I am not saying that if they do not comment on mine, then I will not comment on theirs. What I am saying is if they make no comments on any music save their own, I will ignore them.

I think that getting posted in Major Works has become a ego booster for the elite few.

There are those in this forum whom I call friend. These people are the only things that keep me around. I have been discouraged to the point of never returning on numerous occasions. Other than a few throw away pieces in stagnant forums, I spend days,weeks and months on pieces only to see them slide away with little or no comments. I had one piece that had over 250 people open the thread and only one person had the decency to make a comment. I was overjoyed when a fellow composer said that he listened to another piece several times and then commented "I didn't mind it as much."

Fine, he didn't like it ( I wasn't thrilled with it either but no one was posting in that thread). I can live with that a lot easier than seeing something that I took 50 to 100 hours to write, slowly work its way down the page and then disappear without one comment. Again, what is the purpose of this forum if not to comment on each others works.

Some of you who have read this far will think that I am just a cry baby. I submitted a Symphonic work of 4 movements that I took 3 months of my life to compose on an average of 4 + hours a day. I was told it did not fit in Major works. The piece was over 25 minutes long and as I just said took 3 months to write. So I had to assume that it just wasn't very good. I reposted one of the movements and had nothing but great reviews. Now I am convinced that it didn't fit for the 5 reasons stated at the beginning. I believe this website has the talent to become the best site on the web. I do not believe that the desire is there.

The overwhelming desire is for the ego boost to be found in Major works.

I have said my piece and now I will continue on in my quest to make this site better. I fully expect that those who have ignored me in the past to continue their behavior, and half expect to be bannished. Such is life.

[Saiming]

There are too many 'what if's' in every single definition everyone is giving for a piece that would go into "major works".

It is nice to try, and actually debate using number of measures, and tempos and what not. However, that is futile and idiotic.

It simply has to be a piece that is considered an accomplishment by the composer- short or long; complicated counterpoint or not.

Someone should know whether or not a piece fits that definition right away.

It is ridiculous to be this petty.

If that would happen, then Major Works would be the "same" as all the other subforums and therefore the music quality there will decrease.

Remember this Mozart dude? Remember Exemos?

[Guest QcCowboy]

I know I am signing my own death warrant here, but I have to comment.

From what I have seen so far (and I have looked at and listen to most of the pieces in Major works), this is the criteria for placement there:

1 You must have a low member number.

or

actually, if you read the member numbers in the first 15 or so posts of the MW forum, you'll see that there are member numbers ranging from the low 20's into the three thousands. I think the majority are actually members who've joined in the last year.

So I think your implied criticism that there is elitism and cliquishness related to length of membership as a prerequisite for MW posting is unwarranted, and quite unfair.

And I could point out that EVERYONE here has had posts that have been virtually ignored at some point or other. Even those you accuse of being part of the forum "elite". I have at least 2 pieces not in the MW forum that have all but dissappeared with nothing but a few comments, most of them from the same two or three people.

So I think your criticism is unfair.

[CaltechViolist]

I know I am signing my own death warrant here, but I have to comment.

From what I have seen so far (and I have looked at and listen to most of the pieces in Major works), this is the criteria for placement there:

1 You must have a low member number.

or

2 You must have a minimum of $5000 dollars worth of equipment ( the more the better)

or

3 You must know someone in the forum with the power.

or

4 Have a grad degree

or

5 Have a live recording

or 6 You must have a low member number

Yes, I repeated one for emphasis

I have seen many works posted in other catagories that are just as good if not better than those in Major. Some of these works are obviously considered by the composer to be a major accomplishment for them. Some have been composed over long stretches of time. But if not displayed with a minimum of GPO, these works disappear quickly. There will never be a post allowed in Major if it is written in Notepad.

Much of this gets transfered into the other catagories as well. Many threads get posted with zero comments. What is the point of this forum? I see new members come and go quickly for this very reason. Or on thier first post they are cut to pieces with the criticism. Only lately have some determined individuals got together and decided that zero comments on any given piece is unacceptable.

There are many members here that post their works and then only comment in that thread. They never make any comments on other members posts. There are numerous websites for just showing off ones works, I thought this site was more. I decided that those who do this practice do not need any input whatsoever from me, so I ignore them and their posts. I am not saying that if they do not comment on mine, then I will not comment on theirs. What I am saying is if they make no comments on any music save their own, I will ignore them.

I think that getting posted in Major Works has become a ego booster for the elite few.

There are those in this forum whom I call friend. These people are the only things that keep me around. I have been discouraged to the point of never returning on numerous occasions. Other than a few throw away pieces in stagnant forums, I spend days,weeks and months on pieces only to see them slide away with little or no comments. I had one piece that had over 250 people open the thread and only one person had the decency to make a comment. I was overjoyed when a fellow composer said that he listened to another piece several times and then commented "I didn't mind it as much."

Fine, he didn't like it ( I wasn't thrilled with it either but no one was posting in that thread). I can live with that a lot easier than seeing something that I took 50 to 100 hours to write, slowly work its way down the page and then disappear without one comment. Again, what is the purpose of this forum if not to comment on each others works.

Some of you who have read this far will think that I am just a cry baby. I submitted a Symphonic work of 4 movements that I took 3 months of my life to compose on an average of 4 + hours a day. I was told it did not fit in Major works. The piece was over 25 minutes long and as I just said took 3 months to write. So I had to assume that it just wasn't very good. I reposted one of the movements and had nothing but great reviews. Now I am convinced that it didn't fit for the 5 reasons stated at the beginning. I believe this website has the talent to become the best site on the web. I do not believe that the desire is there.

The overwhelming desire is for the ego boost to be found in Major works.

I have said my piece and now I will continue on in my quest to make this site better. I fully expect that those who have ignored me in the past to continue their behavior, and half expect to be bannished. Such is life.

This is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. I have personally approved quite a few pieces by relatively new members and complete strangers for Major Works. And, in fact, I don't care whether or not GPO was used - I won't even listen to a piece unless I see a score.

By the way, even as a moderator and member number 12, I will sometimes wait a month or longer for a single post on a piece that took me years to write. Apparently, being "one of the elite few" hasn't gotten me any advantages over you!

I'm also going to have to mention some of the history of the Major Works forum here, for those who haven't been around so long. We started out very reluctant to reject anything, and the way the rules were originally written, Major Works started to fill up with pieces that were 6-8 minutes long, and the 30 minute pieces got pushed to the bottom. A lot of efforts were aimed at just barely meeting a minimum length requirement for Major Works, which really defeated the whole purpose. We wanted a criterion that was a good bit stricter than "longer than average" and rewrote the mechanism to require reviewer approval. If you've really looked into almost every piece since the beginning, then I would guess that many of the shorter or inferior pieces in MW were submitted early in the history of this version of YC, when we were much less strict, and when everyone had low member numbers!

Of course, I'm not the only one with input into what goes into Major Works, and I will admit that a number of the reviewers (including the owner of the site) seem to have emphasized quality over ambition.

I will note again that the tendency I've observed on composition forums in general is: the longer the piece, the fewer the comments, and the more likely the comments are little more than "too long". What I don't want to see is a forum where 3-5 minute pieces overwhelm everything bigger. My own motivation for this is the fact that I received very little feedback other than "your piece is too long" for at least a couple years, which seems to be exactly your own complaint. In other words, my purpose in starting Major Works (though it's now mostly out of my hands) was exactly to answer your complaint. So, again, if you have an issue about a rejected piece, please take it up with us. I for one am likely to be sympathetic if it turns out you have a 20-plus-minute piece that was turned down. We're absolutely not unreachable.

[nikolas]

Ron,

You have some things mixed up.

First of, I joined as of rather late, but I actually have 2 major works in there. I have some threads which go to oblivion in 1 page, less than 1 page, 3-4 posts in all, and other (off the major works) which keep coming alive (my loving life, for example).

There is one thing that needs to be completely clear:

In this case about major works, we either trust or not trust the panel. The system works, but some seem to have problems with the panel and the way they critic the works!

About the whole list you mention, Ron, I have to say that, apart from the no.1 and 6 I fit all other categories. I have plenty of degrees, the pieces in the major works are long, one is live recording, the other is recorded with computer means, I have spent a lot of money in my equipment (and still spending...).

I'm going to be honest here.

The effort does not stop at composing the piece. It needs to be presentable as well, let's face it. If someone has written the absolute marvel, but fails to put it on score, what is there to review? midi quality sucks, and the score sucks! How can such a work be reviewable?

[Nirvana69]

It is kinda hard for me to make a comment about how I feel towards the Major Works Forum as I don't have much of an opinion either way. I've very little aspiration to get one of my works accepted into the Major Works forum. Simply because, it doesn't appeal to me. Most pieces that make it into the Major Works forum are long winded orchestral, concert pieces. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate these pieces. But, I far more enjoy pieces from the Incidental Music and Soundtracks forum. It really is a matter of opinion, what is considered a "Major work" and what is not. What is "good" music and what isn't is entirely subjective. On more then one occasion, I have found myself not impressed by a "Major Work" at all. While I can be jaw dropped by something in one of the other many forums. I understand the concept behind Major Works, a composer who works his donkey off on a piece for a two months should get a bit more attention then a person who works on a piece for 2 days. But the problem is, how much time a composer spends on his/her piece is not relative to the quality of the piece. Time is objective. Quality is not. Really, I think the simplest way to solve this Major Works forum dilemma is to simply get rid of the forum altogether. Why don't we let our music stand on it's own merit? I notice alot of times Major Work threads can have pages of comments while threads in other forums are lucky to get more then a page. Yet, often times I think the piece of music with maybe a page of replies is better then the Major Work with 10 pages of comments. It's almost as if people fell more compelled to comment on a "Major Work". So really, if we took down the whole "Major Work" concept, would the pieces get as man comments? Logically, the bigger number of people who enjoy the piece, the more likely a thread is to get comments. So wouldn't it all just make more sense to get rid of Major Work forum? It's not like these would-be Major Work pieces aren't still going to get attention. If people enjoy them and can actually see that the composer was trying, I think they will comment anyway. It just makes more sense, at least to me.

On a side note, I agree with alot of what Rolifer says. I think the real issue we need to be discussing here is how so many on this forum can be so selfish at times (I won't name names). I hate people who only post on their own threads. It seems very selfish to me and kind arrogant to only comment on your own threads while expecting other people to comment on your threads as well. It's very hypocritical as well. What is a forum exactly? An open place for public discussion right? Well there isn't a whole lot of discussion going on in a forum when nearly half the members (this is a rough estimate, could be higher or lower) are too selfish but to do anything but post on their own threads. I believe that you should give back to a forum as much as you get. If someone comments on your music, simply check to see if they have any pieces themselves and comment on them. The average piece on here is about 4-5 minutes and typing a comment takes maybe about 5 minutes. So that 10 minutes out of your day can make all the difference in a forum. It's how a forum should work. Now before I become to much of a matyr, I do admit I haven't always commented on people's threads who gave me comments. But, I do make an effort to be an active participant on this forum. And that is more then I can say for alot on this site. I probably should wrap this up before I ramble anymore. But I think I have made a few valid points, and if I get just one person (assuming anyone reads my post) to stop and think about what I have said for a minute, then I am happy.

[nikolas]

It's not hypocritical, or anything like that. You may feel it's stupid and selfish, and I will agree, but still this is how people work.

Do you expect in real life everybody treating everyone equaly and acting perfectly and fairly to everybody? I really don't feel this is the case, so why should it be in a forum?

On me commenting on other threads, I have done a few times, but in some cases I've been "hit" for my comments and thus I've drawn back. Simply put, at the stage I'm in (and QC, and hymnspace and nightfly and other members), I, personally at least, am getting paid for reviewing and delivering lessons and knowlegde and my experience. And when I see people acting like fools towards QCC for example, or towards me at one specific time, I really get pissed off.

So, in all, I do see plenty of new works, but don't comment really. I comment on people I know, appreciate it, to people I know they care (to Ron for example, who I'm ashamed to say had to remind me... Sorry Ron). and another few. I WON'T waste my time, and knowledge to unappreciative people! End of story for me!

As for comments in my own threads, apart from saying "wow, thanks!", I usually answer questions and provide analytical thought about the works in question, so I do think it is still of valyue in this community. If not I might as well stop that as well :)

[Nirvana69]

It's not hypocritical, or anything like that. You may feel it's stupid and selfish, and I will agree, but still this is how people work.

Do you expect in real life everybody treating everyone equaly and acting perfectly and fairly to everybody? I really don't feel this is the case, so why should it be in a forum?

On me commenting on other threads, I have done a few times, but in some cases I've been "hit" for my comments and thus I've drawn back. Simply put, at the stage I'm in (and QC, and hymnspace and nightfly and other members), I, personally at least, am getting paid for reviewing and delivering lessons and knowlegde and my experience. And when I see people acting like fools towards QCC for example, or towards me at one specific time, I really get pissed off.

So, in all, I do see plenty of new works, but don't comment really. I comment on people I know, appreciate it, to people I know they care (to Ron for example, who I'm ashamed to say had to remind me... Sorry Ron). and another few. I WON'T waste my time, and knowledge to unappreciative people! End of story for me!

As for comments in my own threads, apart from saying "wow, thanks!", I usually answer questions and provide analytical thought about the works in question, so I do think it is still of valyue in this community. If not I might as well stop that as well :)

I really wasn't directing any of my attack (for lack of better terms) towards you Nikolas. You seem a very nice fellow, and seem active enough in this forum to be called a member (I realize that came off as condescending but I didn't mean it like that, you're more of a "member" then I am). Yes, I do realize that people do not treat each other fairly and as equals in real life either. But, I was under the impression this thread was about talking of ways to improve this site. I realize I am being idealistic, and there will always be people who do not treat each other fairly. But just because it is unrealistic, doesn't mean we still can't strive for the ideal (if that makes any sense). I think that we can all agree that as long as some form of "law" exists, there will be crime. No matter what we do, there will always be someone who breaks this aforementioned "law" now and again. But does that mean we should just stop trying and not even bother to enforce this law? I don't think so. I apologize for the lame metaphor but that's as best a one as I could come up with.

[nikolas]

Oh I know. I wasn't thinking of your post as an attack. I just used myself as an example to how things could be happening for other members as well... :) no worries.

And, yes, you are right about the law thing. :P

[Berlioz]

A little doubt:

How can my string quartet be on major works and my flute sonata not, since the latter is infinitely better than the first?

Does it have to do with the changing of the rules? (one was posted before that, the other after)

[Guest QcCowboy]

Does it have to do with the changing of the rules? (one was posted before that, the other after)

very probably... as has been mentionned already in this thread.

from the lack of deleted reviewer comments in the earlier thread (which maybe only moderators can view, I don't know), it obviously belongs to a period preceding the application of the new rules in MW.

[Saiming]

This is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. I have personally approved quite a few pieces by relatively new members and complete strangers for Major Works. And, in fact, I don't care whether or not GPO was used - I won't even listen to a piece unless I see a score.

By the way, even as a moderator and member number 12, I will sometimes wait a month or longer for a single post on a piece that took me years to write. Apparently, being "one of the elite few" hasn't gotten me any advantages over you!

I'm also going to have to mention some of the history of the Major Works forum here, for those who haven't been around so long. We started out very reluctant to reject anything, and the way the rules were originally written, Major Works started to fill up with pieces that were 6-8 minutes long, and the 30 minute pieces got pushed to the bottom. A lot of efforts were aimed at just barely meeting a minimum length requirement for Major Works, which really defeated the whole purpose. We wanted a criterion that was a good bit stricter than "longer than average" and rewrote the mechanism to require reviewer approval. If you've really looked into almost every piece since the beginning, then I would guess that many of the shorter or inferior pieces in MW were submitted early in the history of this version of YC, when we were much less strict, and when everyone had low member numbers!

Of course, I'm not the only one with input into what goes into Major Works, and I will admit that a number of the reviewers (including the owner of the site) seem to have emphasized quality over ambition.

I will note again that the tendency I've observed on composition forums in general is: the longer the piece, the fewer the comments, and the more likely the comments are little more than "too long". What I don't want to see is a forum where 3-5 minute pieces overwhelm everything bigger. My own motivation for this is the fact that I received very little feedback other than "your piece is too long" for at least a couple years, which seems to be exactly your own complaint. In other words, my purpose in starting Major Works (though it's now mostly out of my hands) was exactly to answer your complaint. So, again, if you have an issue about a rejected piece, please take it up with us. I for one am likely to be sympathetic if it turns out you have a 20-plus-minute piece that was turned down. We're absolutely not unreachable.

Andrew, has the MW suddenly changed from quality to quantity? You mention the length of a piece so often, I wonder.

Ron,

You have some things mixed up.

First of, I joined as of rather late, but I actually have 2 major works in there. I have some threads which go to oblivion in 1 page, less than 1 page, 3-4 posts in all, and other (off the major works) which keep coming alive (my loving life, for example).

There is one thing that needs to be completely clear:

In this case about major works, we either trust or not trust the panel. The system works, but some seem to have problems with the panel and the way they critic the works!

About the whole list you mention, Ron, I have to say that, apart from the no.1 and 6 I fit all other categories. I have plenty of degrees, the pieces in the major works are long, one is live recording, the other is recorded with computer means, I have spent a lot of money in my equipment (and still spending...).

I'm going to be honest here.

The effort does not stop at composing the piece. It needs to be presentable as well, let's face it. If someone has written the absolute marvel, but fails to put it on score, what is there to review? midi quality sucks, and the score sucks! How can such a work be reviewable?

I find the list very amusing, simply because it has quite a bit of truth in it - ever heard a midi in the MW?

That made me re-think, it is only natural that pieces with good sound quality become more impressive; it is a pity for those good composers who don't have a good sound library.

As Andrew stated before "

[Guest QcCowboy]

there are a number of reviewers who have stated they will not review a piece if it does not include a score.

[rolifer]

My purpose in my comments was not to attack anyone. If anyone feels that way I apologize. But I am not the only one who feels that getting posted in Major Works is an option only allowed for the select few. I have been contacted by others who agree, but do not wish their opinions to be out in public and then subjected to ridicule or scorn or oblivion.

Of the last 38 posts in Major works, 26 were from members with a member number below 1500. That is over a 2-1 majority. 21 have a member number under 1000. But as I said in my original comments, that is not the only criteria. The remaining 12 fit into one or more of the other categories on my list.

Every time I post a work of mine I try to include a score. I wonder what will happen each and every time. Will my work show up in some teachers homework pile with someone else’s name? Will my music be used in other ways not known to me? Although most people on this forum are honest and professional and would never dream of borrowing someone else’s work, there are those out there that will. For that reason, I never go out of my way to post a completed score. If someone decides to borrow my work, they will have to work on it. This is the first time I have admitted to this and it may seem paranoid, but I am sure others have felt the same.

So how do we fix the problems? I have only begun to think about this but I have 2 suggestions.

Have the all criteria for Major Works eliminated save for a time constraint. All works are posted and a vote process could take place. Those works that acquire enough votes are then moved to a Hall of Fame thread. This is simple and requires little effort on the parts of the reviewers or others.

People need to be reminded repeatedly in order to learn. As all teachers here in the forum know, repetition is the key to learning. When new members join, send them a little note informing them that their comments on other’s works would be greatly appreciated. From time to time, this same note could be sent to all members.

Again, if I have offended anyone, I apologize as this has never been my intent. As I said in my original thread, I believe that YC can be the best site on the web.

[manossg]

I disagree with Ron's suggestion. A voting process would only demean the MW forum to works posted by popular composers in contrast with major, accomplished works belonging there.

The other suggestions seem fine.

[CaltechViolist]

Of the last 38 posts in Major works, 26 were from members with a member number below 1500. That is over a 2-1 majority. 21 have a member number under 1000. But as I said in my original comments, that is not the only criteria. The remaining 12 fit into one or more of the other categories on my list.

Just a second.

A quick look at the member list says that there are 2351 members. This means 1500 members numbered 1-1500, and 851 members numbered over 1500.

In other words, you're claiming there's a problem because 64% of the members produced 68% of the last 38 Major Works posts, which means virtually nothing. Or, in the worst-case scenario (under 1000), that 43% of the members produced 55% of the last 38 Major Works posts.

Crunching the numbers for the under-1000 case, I find that p=0.077, which means the difference would not be considered statistically significant in any serious survey. Furthermore, I would argue that, since earlier members are likely to be more experienced (assuming the average experience level of new members doesn't change, earlier members have been composing a year or two longer), and few YC members have over 5 years of composing experience, the 1-2 years of additional experience that the earlier members have likely accounts for increased likelihood of writing large-scale pieces.

[Nirvana69]

We seem to be experiencing a case of "The grass is always greener on the other side". Those that haven't got a work submitted into the Major Works Forum treat want in while those who have already got a few works accepted say "Meh, it's not that great". I just think that if we get rid of the Major Works forum, and all pieces are just submitted into one of the other forums. It's not like these pieces won't still get attention, if people like them and comment on them. They will still be on the top of the Forum page. And we all know that a member is more likely to listen and comment on a thread already on the top of the forum page.

[Guest QcCowboy]

Have the all criteria for Major Works eliminated save for a time constraint. All works are posted and a vote process could take place. Those works that acquire enough votes are then moved to a Hall of Fame thread. This is simple and requires little effort on the parts of the reviewers or others.

and here you GUARANTEE that the MW forum will become a popularity contest dominated by an elite clique of YC "elders".

[rolifer]

The highest number was 3175. The suggestion was just off the top of my head.

You said 2351? My number is higher than that.

[Tumababa]

I've talked with rolifer a few times via. PM and would tend to agree that there is a certain amount of cliquiness to this site.

However, if I've ever felt that a piece of mine is getting neglected I would simply PM someone whose opinion I respect and politely ask them to check out a particular piece.

I've never had anyone refuse and I'm assuming that this is because there is a certain amount of flattery involved in someone asking you to review their music. I know that if someone asked me to review a piece I wouldn't turn them down.

Oh, and incidentally, I'm member number 27 and I have quite a hard time getting anyone to look at something I've written. I don't think the numbers game works in this case. It's just a case of the coolest kids hogging the jungle gym. That's life. You'll get used to it.

[James H.]

I've also noticed this "cliquiness", but I won't dare arguing against it as I've only been here for a month and have only two works and an arrangement posted. Nonetheless, I do agree with some of Rolifer's observations.

...if I've ever felt that a piece of mine is getting neglected I would simply PM someone whose opinion I respect and politely ask them to check out a particular piece.

I've never had anyone refuse and I'm assuming that this is because there is a certain amount of flattery involved in someone asking you to review their music. ...

Same with me. Of course' date=' generally this comes from having an interaction with the person, it seems to be along a more personal basis than say, randomly asking someone who's been around for a while to check out your piece because you figure they're experienced and they know what they're doing.

Every time I post a work of mine I try to include a score. I wonder what will happen each and every time. Will my work show up in some teachers homework pile with someone else’s name? Will my music be used in other ways not known to me? Although most people on this forum are honest and professional and would never dream of borrowing someone else’s work, there are those out there that will. For that reason, I never go out of my way to post a completed score. If someone decides to borrow my work, they will have to work on it. This is the first time I have admitted to this and it may seem paranoid, but I am sure others have felt the same.

You're not alone here, Rolifer, I am very much concerned as well. Members and non-members of this forum alike have pretty much all access, so you never know who could be viewing your music, and possibly stealing tidbits, or even stealing the whole piece and claiming it as his own. The only way to safegaurd against this is to copyright your music before you post it. Get it notorized, it cost only a couple bucks. That way, if anybody made money off YOUR music you could sue them, and prove in court that its yours because the notary has the records with your signature.

As Andrew stated before "…I don't care whether or not GPO was used - I won't even listen to a piece unless I see a score." Isn't that was it most important? That the solid score is visible, of course hearing it helps infinitely and hearing it with played by a good sound library even more, but the main thing that should be commented is the score.

there are a number of reviewers who have stated they will not review a piece if it does not include a score.

Are some of us forgetting what music is? Music is about what you hear, not a pretty score. The score is a help to some of us who look into the more intricate details, but isn't the ear the final judge?

[Tumababa]

Are some of us forgetting what music is? Music is about what you hear, not a pretty score. The score is a help to some of us who look into the more intricate details, but isn't the ear the final judge?

This won't be the last time I type this. If all you want to hear is "Nice music. I enjoyed it." then the midi file is all you need. But what I assume most people want from a review is the very thing you mentioned: Details. It's pointless to back on forth on esthetic issues as all of us will never agree on something that is so subjective. What we CAN agree on are technical things. Things such as difficulty of execution, balance, and just general all-round compositional "tightness" are things that I bet we could get a 90% agreement on.

Also, since there's this huge leap(And I'm talking miles and miles and miles) from midi file to performance by real musicians, we need the score so we can imagine what it will sound like when played by real players. A legible score should be the standard on these forums. Believe me, it is in the real world(Wherever that is). Midi files don't cut it for me. I get a way better idea of what the piece will sound like in concert from the score. Even better is the score AND the midi file.

Plus, I imagine most people here are busy people. I find it a pain in the arse to review someone's piece with just the midi file. When you have the whole score in front of you and take it all in at once it gives you a much better idea in your head about what the person is after. The alternative is to listen to the piece 13 or 15 times over. I don't have time for that! I have my own music. I find that I gain a MUCH deeper understanding of someone's music with the score on hand. It makes my reviews better.

Sorry if it felt like I was blasting you there. The score-thing is a hot button for me.

[CaltechViolist]

As most people who know me already know well, I don't even listen to MP3 files. I'm on a dial-up connection, so I'm not going to wait half an hour for a MP3 to finish downloading before I can even start listening.