Major Works forum: open floor for discussion

[James H.]

This won't be the last time I type this. If all you want to hear is "Nice music. I enjoyed it." then the midi file is all you need. But what I assume most people want from a review is the very thing you mentioned: Details. It's pointless to back on forth on esthetic issues as all of us will never agree on something that is so subjective. What we CAN agree on are technical things. Things such as difficulty of execution, balance, and just general all-round compositional "tightness" are things that I bet we could get a 90% agreement on.

Agreed, but maybe I'm the only one here who wants to know if people just plain like it. When I have friends listen to my music, that is exactly what I hear all the time, "Nice music. I enjoyed it.". I don't like to hear that. I want to hear why, and people don't know the answer to that. People on YC, on the other hand, DO know how to awnswer that. Eg. "I liked this and this because of this and that..... this and that didn't fit or make sense........I didn't like the feeling at the end........it makes me feel *whatever*..........I think you conveyed this feeling really well/poorly". That's the stuff I like to hear as much as voice leading and orchestration critiques, especially those two last ones.

What I'm saying is, yes, most of us are looking for critiques on the details, but some of us just want general opinion too, just the overall sound, basic.

And I don't mind being blasted, it just lets me know I'm not perfect yet if you know what I mean. :D

As most people who know me already know well, I don't even listen to MP3 files. I'm on a dial-up connection, so I'm not going to wait half an hour for a MP3 to finish downloading before I can even start listening.

Just save the midi and play it back with samples. Judging by the amount of time some people spend making their mp3's, what's the difference? The faster download, that's all. Some people make mp3's and don't even bother making THEM presentable. No matter how good Garritan and Finale are, there is always going to be a need for tweaking here and there, and some people don't bother putting in the effort. The result is a midi with reverb.

[Saiming]

I disagree with Ron's suggestion. A voting process would only demean the MW forum to works posted by popular composers in contrast with major, accomplished works belonging there.

The other suggestions seem fine.

I agree with manossg here, if you have a voting then the 'popular' members of this forum will totally dominate the MW.

I've also noticed this "cliquiness", but I won't dare arguing against it as I've only been here for a month and have only two works and an arrangement posted. Nonetheless, I do agree with some of Rolifer's observations.

Same with me. Of course, generally this comes from having an interaction with the person, it seems to be along a more personal basis than say, randomly asking someone who's been around for a while to check out your piece because you figure they're experienced and they know what they're doing.

You're not alone here, Rolifer, I am very much concerned as well. Members and non-members of this forum alike have pretty much all access, so you never know who could be viewing your music, and possibly stealing tidbits, or even stealing the whole piece and claiming it as his own. The only way to safegaurd against this is to copyright your music before you post it. Get it notorized, it cost only a couple bucks. That way, if anybody made money off YOUR music you could sue them, and prove in court that its yours because the notary has the records with your signature.

Are some of us forgetting what music is? Music is about what you hear, not a pretty score. The score is a help to some of us who look into the more intricate details, but isn't the ear the final judge?

Yes the safety, perhaps we could block a few more subforums for the non-members? Since there are many guests visting this site everyday and there can be a possibility that one of them actually steal a work.

Yes of course, the ear is a final judging to in music, but I was trying to say that with all these impeccable sound libraries, it enhances the listening experience, thus leaving the 'crappier' sound quality pieces left alone. There are of course members who only comment on pieces with attached score, but that is only a fraction against the entire forum.

[rolifer]

I am not sure myself if I would base it on my suggestion either. But I am curious if you think that the members here can't be trusted to vote fairly? If the members can not get past petty differences and see whether or not a piece is well written? You may be right. I don't know. I hate to think that a piece that is undeserving would be voted in just because a Popular member wished it so. There are people on this forum who I would not give the time of day to. But I respect their talent. If the vote was kept secret, I would not have a problem voting against a friend's piece if it was IMO undeserving.

[nikolas]

The only way a voting system would work would be if based on anonymity. You can't vote for your mate if you don't know which score/mp3/midi/mus/sib is his. However why go to all this trouble?

On the scores question vs mp3: Music is to be heard scores are to be analysed. Pick what you want to have with your music and do what you wish. You can't really analyse the music just by listening to it. Especially if it's midi or even a decent rendered mock-up.

But something else that hit me with musicman and Rolifer:

Guys you are afraid that someone will steal your ideas, your music, your talent. Sorry but wake up! Firstly this happens everyday, everywhere and without anyone knowing it. Second I'm sorry to break it to you, your music is nothing special. Nor is mine, or QCCs, or Manos, or hymnspace, or whatever. Yet all these people provide mp3s and scores. Further more imagine serious composers, like Beethoven, or Chopin, or whoever else trying to "save" their music from stealing by NOT publishing their works.

1. There is nothing to steal. It's all music

2. Even if you have something amazing, and even if they steal it, why would that matter really? There are 5-10 people here who make money out of music, unless these people steal your music, the rest what are they going to do with it? Get benefit for it? So what? Are you loosing something?

[rolifer]

1. There is nothing to steal. It's all music

2. Even if you have something amazing, and even if they steal it, why would that matter really? There are 5-10 people here who make money out of music, unless these people steal your music, the rest what are they going to do with it? Get benefit for it? So what? Are you loosing something?

I agree that music is just music. The borrowing of others music takes place all the time and there is little that can be done to stop it. What concerns me more is cheating. I am a teacher and when I see someone's homework, I want to be confidant that that work belongs to the person who has their name on it.

I always post a score. It is not complete, so as to stop a frazzled student from turning it in as theirs.

If any of my music ever turned up in a movie or a video game, I would 1st be surprised, 2nd I would be honored and only lastly would I be thinking about where's my cut.

Cheating is rampant in our society and I hate to make it easier.

The first 4 (or 8) notes of Beethoven's 5th are probably the most easily recognizible and/or famous notes ever written. What if a contemporary of his took them and did something else with them before Beethoven published? Just a thought.

Looking forward to the competition At CGEmpire!!!

[Euler]

While posting scores will aid student cheaters, letting cheaters decide how YC is used seems absurd. There are a lot of benefits from posting scores both for analysis and that the writing good scores is part of composing for live performances or even for decent computer playback.

Also a score can be made from a midi file so posting a score doesn't really increase the risk of theft. And a loop for a game could be made from a midi or mp3 with no need for a score. So again there doesn't seem to be much increased risk from posting a score. And that risk is small - has there ever been a recorded instance of a prize winner to some competition being caught using someone else's work taken from a website? As Nikolas points out, most theft of music does no harm to the real composer and there is no point in composing music if it isn't shared.

To my understanding, composers own the copyright to their works in most countries without needing any special legal action except some proof they are the composer - and for that, a posting to a site such as YC should suffice in that it has an independent time stamp (that of one's own computer could be altered). So, if someone did steal from YC, and reaped a major benefit, the option is there to take some action to discredit them or even to seek compensation with a lawsuit.

There doesn't seem to be much of a case for not posting scores.

[Tumababa]

Agreed.

Wow! 300 posts. Anybody up for a pint?

[rolifer]

Make it a quart.

Scores from midi's are never right. Even if made from the same software, they are rarely what the composer wrote. Just playing devils advocate. I post scores, but I can understand the reasons why some do not.

[Maximilian Caldwell]

Since I

1) Don't write music and

2) Review rarely at best

I feel somewhat odd sticking in my advice, but I personally trust the judgment of the moderator board and reviewers to such an extent that I think the most viable way of getting the most ambitious (or, alternatively, "best") pieces into MW would be to restrict posting permissions to those elite groups. A staff member would be able to move a piece originally posted in a lesser-forum to MW, should he deem it "appropriate". Members would not be able to take it upon themselves to do so, although PMing promotionally would definitely come into play (unless prohibited).

Just a thought, in accordance with Chopin's ongoing "every aspect of YC under my personal control" regime.

[Mike]

Sapphire, that's pretty much how we do it at the moment, but in reverse. Instead of moving from forum x to Major Works, pieces are posted in Major Works right at the beginning of the process. A user posting a thread in there is the rough equivalent of "PM'ing promotionally". We also occasionally move an existing work outside of Major Works into there sometimes if it catches our eye, and if three reviewers/moderators agree.

All the talk of member numbers actually took me rather by surprise since I'd pretty much forgotten that information was even displayed before today. First off, for reasons existing outside the scope of this discussion, the highest member number will always be larger than the total number of accounts. This has to do with past account deletions. Second, it is true that the average member number of users owning threads in Major Works is slightly higher than that of users owning threads in the rest of the upload forums, but not by much. On average, member numbers are about 14% higher in Major Works, taking into account all existing data. And possible reasons for this have already been discussed. Obviously I'm not psychic, so I can't speak for the rest of the decision-makers, but I think this discrepancy isn't pronounced enough to suggest any underhandedness.

I think it's interesting how the discussion has shifted from the topic of alleged bias in Major Works to cliquishness the board over. The latter has always been an issue to some extent, but it really does boil down to human nature, at least in part. That is by no means a cop-out, though - in a few weeks, when I have more free time, I'll look into the various proposals that have been made (reminders, "reviewer credits", other more sociological methods, etc.). Members not getting sufficient feedback on their work should be considered the most important issue on YC - I sympathise entirely with those afflicted, and I hope something can be done about it. In the meantime, feel free to ignore those who comment solely on their own works. If you're not worthy of someone else's time, they're not worthy of yours.

rolifer, in reference to your "Symphonic work of 4 movements": was this Pluto, by any chance? I'm listening to it again and I'm rather impressed. I can confirm having pulled up the deleted posts from your original submission that the decision to reject was a close call, but I would now deem this to have been a mistake. I'm truly sorry for that. If you would like this piece to reside in Major Works from now on, please contact me. All that being said, though, I again feel the need to re-iterate the fact that your piece was not rejected for the reasons you stated.

And, lastly, the notion of members as well as staff voting on new submissions has been considered in the past, but was not taken up owing to concerns of potential favouritism. Using a panel is one way of injecting objectivity into the proceedings. Of course, another might be to embark on a cultural reformation of some kind. We'll see.

[Maximilian Caldwell]

I'm partial to doing it in reverse only because then there's a 100% certainty that only the most-ambitious of the most-ambitious make it through the filter, opposed to the other way around. Exemos-related problems are also somewhat circumvented.

Okay. I'll stop pumping my proposal now.