Composition education

Hi

I want to learn to write good music. I'm just starting to learn a bit of music theory from a textbook and the web, and I have a midi sequencing program. My question is could anybody here offer advice on topics I should study for composition? thanks a lot!

I can't help you with your question, but this is a very good question, and I hope some of the older, better composer would each give just a little advice on this good topic.

What do you consider good music?

In a more explorational approach,

assign three pentatonic instruments one octave each. Then get some graph paper and count the lowest square on the left hand side at the bottom as beat one in the bass instrument. Ascending the boxes in that column produces the rest of the pentatonic scale. C D F G A C, the next instrument is CDFGAC in the middle octave and cdfgac is the final instrument/octave continuum. Consider the Rows to be 16th notes. Next draw pictures by coloring in the boxes. Then program what you composed into your sequencer and evaluate the results. Keep things that sound good and repeat the process with modified pictures. Perhaps draw inspiration from tiles in the subway or in the bathroom or from cross-stich. Have fun.

Gongchime

I like rock, Soul, RnB and classical. Are there particular books anyone recommends for general composition?

Harmony books, what-not-to-do-books (parallell 5ths, blahblahblah). You should also listen a lot to the type of music you want to create, and have scores available. If something sounds good in one score, then it should sound good in yours too. (That doesn't mean you're supposed to copy all the melodies and stuff;-))

Thanks Eirik, i'll get some harmony books then. Where can I find what-not-to-do books? Did a search but couldn't find any...

A theory and harmony book should contain all the what not to dos you need to know. Tho, ive never seen a what-not-to-do book. Id pick one up if there was.

I use a book called Tonal Harmony(with an intro to 20th cent. music). Its quite expensive but im sure there are cheap ones out there.

I'm only a student, but this is what I use:

Tonal Harmony 5th Edition

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...n=9780072852608

(Vinz recommended this above)

This is a college-level text that covers all sorts of theory topics that are useful for classical composition. It goes into modulation, voice leading, instrument ranges, transposition, chords, scales, etc (and it tells you what not to do).

There is also a workbook for sale (but the textbook has exercises to do as well).

It has an abundance of sheet music from which it draws examples, an audio CD is also available to listen to the examples.

The Study of Counterpoint (Johann Joseph Fux, Alfred Mann)

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...393002772&itm=2

This is a book on Counterpoint (translated from its original language of Latin). It was written in 1725 and covers 17th and 18th century counterpoint. It was used by Leopold Mozart to teach his son, Wolfgang. Bach held it in high-esteem and Beethoven took the time to condense it into a pocket-size version for quick reference.

Principles of Orchestration (Rimsky-Korsakov)

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...486212661&itm=1

I don't know of any other books on orchestration written by a famous composer. If you have not listened to Rimsky-Korsakov's pieces before, I think you will find his orchestrations brilliantly colorful and wonderful. He achieves amazing clarity in his pieces. He's viewed as a master orchestrator, so I can imagine that he has a lot to offer on the subject, he also has hundreds of pages of musical examples drawn from his own works. Who knows the orchestration of a piece better than the composer?

Those are the 3 main books that I am using write now. Theory, counterpoint, and orchestration. I'm sure there are many other alternative to those books, but they would certainly be a good choice.

Thanks, i think i'll pick up tonal harmony

I'll also endorse Tonal Harmony (authors are Kostka and Payne).

For a beginner studying orchestration for the first time, I would recommend Sam Adler's book. (I started with Rimsky-Korsakov myself, but Adler writes a lot more clearly.)

For counterpoint, I prefer Kent Kennan's book.

I have Adler and Tonal Harmony, and I recommend both. Although, I must admit, Tonal Harmony and such books aren't written by teachers, they're written by theorists and composers. I've been tutoring theory for several years, and I find the book's methods to be more likely confusing for the beginning theory student. I've developed my own ideas of how to teach the stuff, so eventually I might be writing my own textbook on the subject, perhaps for a doctoral dissertation. If that happens, I'll let you know; in the past, students haven't learned from me for long before they're able to grasp things on their own. It all has to do with how you think, so as you read, that's the FIRST thing I'd advise you to study - your own way of thinking about theory!

yeah i've read about sadler's book. Definitely getting that one. Also will keep an eye out for Johan's book. Sorry to go off topic, but I've got a theory question - the II-7/5 of key and IVmaj7/5 of key can apparently 'be seen as chord structures derived from the extended structure of the V7(sus4)'. I was thinking wouldn't a VI-/5 of key also be similar to V7(sus4) because it consists the same notes? Am I right or wrong?

edit: ok i get it...they were using subdominant-sounding upper structures (II-7 and IVmaj7) with a dominant-of-key root....VI- is a tonic-sounding chord. I didn't read enough.

Well, in ionian and aeolian modes, supertonic isn't major (II), it's minor (ii). V7sus4 might as well be I11, depending on how close up the bass note is. VI-/5 doesn't look like anything at all, you're either missing a number or you're tonicizing VI over an Arabic numeral.

ii7 and iidim7 certainly aren't derived from V7 of any kind, since they each resolve to V, same with IVmaj7. Subdominant upper structures with a dominant root are just V11 chords.

Sorry to be such a pain, but I had no idea what you were talking about most of the time. Please, if you're going to ask a question, make sure you're notating properly. But it does sound like whatever you're reading was written by somebody who's trying to be WAY too complicated for the reader's good! Also (question for mods), don't we have a separate theory forum?

thanks, johan, again. Your explanation makes sense.

Sorry for posting the question here. I will make a new theory questions thread.

I've got about 9 books with me about counterpoint, harmony, and orchestration. My question is, can anyone tell me if there is a proper order i should study these topics?

Good question.

I would study them in this order: harmony, then counterpoint, then orchestration. Knowing how to orchestrate will not do you any good if you don't know how to put sounds together harmonically. Counterpoint is much more elementary to composition that most people believe. It is a linear extension of harmony, IMHO.

I guess I should study counterpoint. I've studied harmony extensively and some orchestration, but I have a huge amount of trouble writing, and I think counterpoint is where I'm hurting most. I'll check at my library... any books you would recommend?

I think a what-not-to-do book isn't exactly helpful, to be honest. I write contemporary music, and have never put much stock in the what-not-to-do's of counterpoint and voice leading. I find them restrictive. I do, however, follow the "what TO do's" as they form a great foundation of organizing separate parts. I would recommend hardly paying attention to what they say not to do, unless you're writing period or neo-period works - neo-renaissance, neo-classical, etc.

As far as order of study.

I learned/am learning/will be learning:

Melody

2-part counterpoint

Rhythm/Texture

Harmony

3-part counterpoint

Experimental music

(2 other modules I'm not certain about)

note: this order may not be exact - it tends to vary from year to year - but by the end of my second year of college, I'll have studied all of this.

I would study them in this order: harmony, then counterpoint, then orchestration. Knowing how to orchestrate will not do you any good if you don't know how to put sounds together harmonically. Counterpoint is much more elementary to composition that most people believe. It is a linear extension of harmony, IMHO.

Quote:

PRINCIPLES OF WRITING

The study of Harmony examines the structure and relationship between vertical

combinations of musical tones and their succession, Counterpoint examines the structure

and relationship between horizontal combinations of musical tones and their succession.

When these successions center on a key they become progressions that establish a tonality.

Therefore:

harmonic progression establishes tonality vertically; melodic progression establishes

tonality horizontally. In practice they are directly related.

I guess I should study counterpoint. I've studied harmony extensively and some orchestration, but I have a huge amount of trouble writing, and I think counterpoint is where I'm hurting most. I'll check at my library... any books you would recommend?

counterpoint by Walter Piston

(still to difficult for me, but the learned gradually falls into place and becomes knowledge and hopefully someday skill)

Hmmmm. gutfeeling (not bothered by any extensive knowledge:) 1st learning about harmony - might limit the development of counterpoint skills. I certainly dont regard counterpoint to be a extension of harmony but more as a counterpart that must be in balance with harmony.

Agreed.

I personally am a believer in Kotska Payne for reference, but not for recreational reading...I agree with the experimental composer...experiment. If the style you want sounds like Bach or Beethoven or most before the 20th century. BUt if you like a little more freedom, or not freedom per se...try moving to different chords and listening to the relationships and judge for yourself what is good...

I don't beleive in total serialism or atonality...but I do agree that tonal harmony is good. I sit in the middle somewhere stealing liberally from each!