Can one make a living as a composer?

Hello everyone. I found a post from 2006 by upstart that I found interesting and I feel that I should renew it to your attention.

Upstart

Intermediate Composer

Group: Members

Joined: 17-May 06

Posts: 172

Member Number: 840

Making a Living

Hi all,

I'm a lot more active in all the forums now, which is a lot more fun and exciting Really enjoy talking to you all. This time I'm curious about to what extent people on the website have been trying to get their work published, sold, or performed at concerts where people have paid. I know its quite often the last thing any of us have on our mind here, but I'm still curious....curious enough to start a thread with the following question :

Have you ever tried to, or are you currently, making a living out of composing? I.e. receiving a commision, being in a formal (or even informal) contract for pecuniary reward, or being a benefiary of a scholarship and or trust fund, whereby you are able to support yourself, pay the rent, or live on a day to day basis?

An alternative question I wish to ask is:

Does anyone on these forums do full-time music, in the sense that they are paid either to conduct orchestras, arrange or orchestrate scores, or teach at a tertiary institution? Furthermore, does this position allow you to have both the time, energy and resources to compose on a regular basis, and by extension, have access to a real live orchestra, or choir, or ensemble, or any particular arrangement of performers? And even further, does this allow you to make a living, on a day to day basis, as well as satisfy (at least some) of your material needs?

I'm sure there are plenty of stories that people have to share so please appease my curiosity Be mindful that if you are under any kind of contractual obligation where you cannot discuss the names of companies and/or the type of financial relationship it is probably best to use an element of discretion when replying. My answer to these questions are - no, I haven't had anything formally published, but I have an opportunity to have some music played relatively soonish - and that's pretty exciting. Neverthless, I sincerely doubt I will be talented enough to make a living out of composing (I am currently a law student...go figure!), but if we had a choice of dream professions - I'd choose full time composer and conductor Well I looking forward to hearing from you all. All the best,

Regards

Pravin

P.S If you answer in the negatively, please also say what you actually do for a living for the purpose of comparison Thanks

Since I'm responding negatively, i would like to point out that I am still in high school, ergo I make a living rolling burritos at a restaurant called Qdoba, and play guitar at friend's parties in exchange for money and occasionally food.

It has never been possible to make a living SOLELY as a composer. Even the greatest either had huge grants from Kings and financial assistance which is impossible to come by today, or they made livings on the side doing other things. Many played piano for a living, and Charles Ives was an insurance Salesman.

People could once do as Charles Ives did. Their respective Jobs generated them enough money to keep their businesses afloat. Unfortunately, in today's music industry, i no longer beleive it is even worth composing music at all. Look at how the music industry works. Everything you hear on the radio or buy in a record store has been run through countless surveys to make sure you like it, and to make sure as many teenagers, the primary consumers of music, will buy it as physically are able to.

They've figured out that orchestral music doesn't sell in that demographic, and as a result, most major label record companies have all but shut down their classical divisions, and if the classical divisions are afloat, they release film music or music by dead guys (more about that later). As a result--music by new composers doesn't get played, the theory being that no one will buy it.

The Music that does get played, is music by dead guys, Mozart, Beethoven, all that filth. This is done for two reasons-- the music is already well known (who hasn't heard the famous "fate" motif of the fifth symphony), the orchestras have been hacking their way through it since their conservatory days, and it's cheap...you see, when you're dead you don't collect money for having your music played. Why would anyone want to finance music that will have to be rehearsed, be promoted (as it is a new peice of music and people dont know about it) and then played (incorrectly), and on top of that pay the composer? Why waste all that money when they can earn far more money far more easily by hacking their way through a couple of classical "standards" or a soundtrack of film music (which is basically all the same these days and thus not difficult for orchestras to play).

I do beleive that good music is out there that is getting composed, i've heard a lot of it on this website. However, when it does somehow manage to get through a record company and get released, it's nearly impossible to find, due to the fact that retailers can make more money by selling records by Korn than records by Steve Reich.

For these reasons I beleive it is not possible to make a living as a composer anymore, unless your in the field of music or videogames. both of these will always need music for it to appeal to the emotional side of people's brains and heighten their respective experiences, so film and game music (most of which is hogwash.) will always be around.

Many of you will be hostile to this...many want to beleive that they can be composers, but I say--FACE THE FACTS. I love composing music and I adore classical music and new music...but if this kind of music is going to survive, SOMETHING MUST CHANGE. the question is what?

I must say I disagree with you Mr Vulture.

One: I wouldn't refer to Mozart of Beethovens music as 'filth'. While I don't enjoy Mozart's music for example, I respect it, and respect what he did for music. Without Mozart and Beethoven's music we wouldn't have a load of the more modern music we have today.

Two: A lot of film and game music is not as you say 'hogwash' but easily as musically interesting as some concert music. I recommend you check out some of the posts in the incidental music forum by nikolas, which I hope will cure your ignorance on that subject.

Three: It must be possible to make a living as a composer, as I know several people who do so.

I wouldn't refer to Mozart of Beethovens music as 'filth'. While I don't enjoy Mozart's music for example, I respect it, and respect what he did for music. Without Mozart and Beethoven's music we wouldn't have a load of the more modern music we have today.

I dislike much music of the classical period. While they attempt to convey interesting ideas, most music of that period was commissioned by Kings, Popes, etc. They demanded that music sounded a certain way. Did you know that for a while it was actually FORBIDDEN for people to use the tritone? Virtually no dissonance, harmonically or rythymically, was allowed in those days. For that I find the music to be pretty boring to listen to. It is not an igonorant comment. I've looked into that music, and to me it is filth.

I agree with your second comment. I have seen the work of John Williams and Ennio Morricone presented as concert peices, and indeed it works quite well. However, the film music that is interesting is few and far in between, and I'd say about 90% of it is not all that great.

But i'm distracting from the main topic of this forum...sorry to get us so offtrack :D

It has never been possible to make a living SOLELY as a composer. Even the greatest either had huge grants from Kings and financial assistance which is impossible to come by today...

Wrong.

I dislike much music of the classical period. While they attempt to convey interesting ideas, most music of that period was commissioned by Kings, Popes, etc. They demanded that music sounded a certain way. Did you know that for a while it was actually FORBIDDEN for people to use the tritone? Virtually no dissonance, harmonically or rythymically, was allowed in those days. For that I find the music to be pretty boring to listen to. It is not an igonorant comment. I've looked into that music, and to me it is filth.

I agree with your second comment. I have seen the work of John Williams and Ennio Morricone presented as concert peices, and indeed it works quite well. However, the film music that is interesting is few and far in between, and I'd say about 90% of it is not all that great.

But i'm distracting from the main topic of this forum...sorry to get us so offtrack :D

Again your comments show ignorance of an infuriating level. I shall elaborate later, need to do something right now.

filth? ok now please please please tell me u did not just say that.. I request that you get off this subject and try discussing my origional question.. Cna one make a living as a composer? I'll change it a little, it doesn't necearily have to be off your compositions, it could be for teaching, and I think the answer is that is possible but not easy but I would like to know more about the subject. SO if you have anything to say about making money as a composer please fill me in!!

Thanks

(of course the sole aim of composers should not be to make money dont think that I have that in my mind, I just want to know if it is possible to survive off writing concert music)

^I'll respect your wishes. I was not attempting to change the subject, merely expressing my opinion and defending myself from being called ignorant. However, that is not what this thread is about.

If you read what I wrote in my original diatribe, you can see that I think it's not very feasible to make a living as a concert composer, unless you're already established as one and have a following (see John Adams, Steve Reich, etc.) due to some huge changes in the record industry.

hmmmm yes that I think I can agree with, one of the reasons I put up this post is because COMPOSing is my favorite thing to do and I want to major in it. Essentialy I want to become a composer.. =) I guess I'll just have to get a day job waiting tables atleast when I start out, unless I become a stock brocker or something haha

well my advice would be to do as Frank Zappa and john williams had and make a reputation in some sort of commercial music...pop music...film music.

Yes, I make a living of music.

1. I have a shcolarship to study composittion. Around 18,000$ per year (inclusive of tution fees). Assume that this is a grant of some sort, or the king paying me.

2. I teach. I teach piano and composition actually.

3. I have a comission to write music for a choir, and have paid contract with computer games.

In short, living of writing "classical" music solely, is a bit difficult, when you want to focus on composing. Simple comissions are not enough to keep you (+ family) alive. You will need to teach, which after all is nice, healthy, interesting, and good for all, or do other things. Still I can give names, who could make a living solely from composing, concerthall music! But they, themselves chose to teach as well. *

In commercial venues, like film or game music, things appear to be easier, but it's not exactly. And you may be able to make some money of music libraries, or ads and stuff, but that's hardly rewarding as an artist, isn't it? I mean, sure it's fun, but after a point when you realise that you've writen 239 30" cues for ads, you might get suicidal or something!

Does anyone on these forums do full-time music, in the sense that they are paid either to conduct orchestras, arrange or orchestrate scores, or teach at a tertiary institution? Furthermore, does this position allow you to have both the time, energy and resources to compose on a regular basis, and by extension, have access to a real live orchestra, or choir, or ensemble, or any particular arrangement of performers? And even further, does this allow you to make a living, on a day to day basis, as well as satisfy (at least some) of your material needs?

Now, on the practicalities. I don't have locked an orchestra, and a string quartet in my basement. I don't have them handy, and I can't use them whenever I like, sexually or musically! The more people you meet, however, help you get pieces performed. And after a point, the minute people actually pay you to compose, they also pay you to get the music heard. Makes sense. and there is a connection.

Working for computer games, mainly cuts this need, because you can largely work with samples, except when the budget is high enough, in which case you fly to Romania, or some place and get a live orchestra. But up to then, you use a computer and your studio to make realisations of your music.

Vulture: While I do see the points you make, you manage to fight yourself with your rather ugly attitude to things.

* I find that teaching and providing feedback, can be extremely refresing and helpful for a composer. I can surely picture myself teaching 3 days a week and composing the other 3 or something. I'm already doing that, and while the piano lessons go to little kids, the composing goes to a great student and everytime is extremely rewarding! Plus the whole procedure to cater for the next lesson, which takes quite a while of effort and time actually, it's not easy, is very agitated for me.

BTW. Sorry for the edit. Keep in mind that I'm 30, and it's not really amazingly long that I've started making money of composing. I've made plenty of money of playing in bars and stuff in my early 20s, but not composing. It takes a lot of time to find the resources and manage to live of composing

I certainly think it's possible to write music for a living (viz. Reich, Adams, Glass, etc.) but only in very special cases. Notice how "popular" each of the aforementioned composers is. Minimalism, for one, is big. Film music is also big. What I've found is that the three most lucrative ways to make money as a composer are, in order from least to most:

1. Film/games

2. Wind Ensemble

3. Teaching college

That's just my opinion, but it's what I've heard from a lot of people, including my own teacher.

nikolas you have made my day! I'm so happy to hear that it can be done.. maybe I have a chance, I love teaching, (i've taught a little piano) but teaching comp sounds even more fun thanks for your thoughtful response

I find it rather obvious; yes of course you can make a living as a composer. Film composers earn quite a bit, if you are a professor in composition or anything educational, you earn money for a living. We cannot forget that composers are also those who write pop, rock and all the other type of new genres; they earn too much money, hehe :P

I certainly think it's possible to write music for a living (viz. Reich, Adams, Glass, etc.) but only in very special cases. Notice how "popular" each of the aforementioned composers is. Minimalism, for one, is big. Film music is also big. What I've found is that the three most lucrative ways to make money as a composer are, in order from least to most:

1. Film/games

2. Wind Ensemble

3. Teaching college

Just one thing to keep in mind, is that the 3 names mentioned here are top AAA composers. These indeed make plenty of money, but how many can you name worldwide? Same goes with film/game music. How many composer names do you know? 10? 20?40? Worldwide! The rest?

What I mean is this. There should be no illusion that making a living only from composing is easy. There is fierce competition out there. And the money is NOT amazing in the film business, as one would like to think. In all honesty, last time I heard a 2004 film in France had a 35,000

well nik, u are welcome in my home country, the u.s. :P

I once emailed Christopher Tin with the same question.

He replied, saying this:

"There are lots of ways to make money as a composer--you just need to be willing to work at your craft all through college, and make sure that you're as good as you can possibly be by the time you graduate.

Just consider this: there are hundreds of channels of TV broadcasting 24 hours a day. There are 500 movies released every year in the US alone. There are hundreds of video game titles released every year. There are hundreds of radio channels broadcasting songs around the clock. Somebody is writing all that music. So why shouldn't it be you?

Best of luck,

Chris"

I'm not making this up. Hope it helps.

You can't make a living with 70,000

I'm sorry.. but why not exactly?

Maybe on your own, but remember, nikolas was a wife and two kids :D

I once emailed Christopher Tin with the same question.

He replied, saying this:

"There are lots of ways to make money as a composer--you just need to be willing to work at your craft all through college, and make sure that you're as good as you can possibly be by the time you graduate.

Just consider this: there are hundreds of channels of TV broadcasting 24 hours a day. There are 500 movies released every year in the US alone. There are hundreds of video game titles released every year. There are hundreds of radio channels broadcasting songs around the clock. Somebody is writing all that music. So why shouldn't it be you?

Best of luck,

Chris"

I'm not making this up. Hope it helps.

True, however, it is not one single person who does that :D

True, however, it is not one single person who does that :D

I think that's the whole point...there's a lot of work out there, time to get your slice of the pie.

I think that's the whole point...there's a lot of work out there, time to get your slice of the pie.

I hope there is Blueberry Crumble :D

Yes, of course there is, since TV production and Film production is so enormous today.

Rossini. He retired early (around 40 or so) and lived off his royalties. And he got paid to attend parties.

Indeed. He retired at 36/37 and gained dozens of pounds. (as in, weight.) I wish I were him.