Many ways to modulation...

Nik, I wasn't taking issue with your posts (which are rather informative), rather I was just addressing the name "Direct Modulation", because I find it misleading, as the process of modulation is skipped out entirely.

Nik, I wasn't taking issue with your posts (which are rather informative), rather I was just addressing the name "Direct Modulation", because I find it misleading, as the process of modulation is skipped out entirely.

But that’s precisely the point to Direct Modulation Daniel.

There are situations where a key change can be made without any need to use a “process”, and those situations are referred to as Direct Modulation.

It’s a valid term and means precisely what it says – no process was used! The key was simply changed without the use of any process.

The only question now becomes one of where Direct Modulation can be implemented.

Trying to claim that the term is invalid is absurd.

You're going over old ground - I've finished discussing.

A lot of this just depends on your take on the words themselves.

...

But this is really an issue of semantics - I consider modulation the changing from one key to another, and establishing the new tonal area.

You consider modulation (presumably) arriving in a new key, irrespective of how you're there.

, rather I was just addressing the name "Direct Modulation", because I find it misleading, as the process of modulation is skipped out entirely.

Just because the term can be “misleading” by those who misunderstand it doesn’t mean that it’s an invalid term.

For example, in my piece there may be a key that I can jump into without any need for preparation. Finding that key would produce a “Direct Modulation” in my piece.

However, that doesn’t mean that as a composer I took no thought of how to accomplish it!

The “process” to achieve that direct modulation was to simply seek out the proper key to jump into that wouldn’t require any preparation in the piece. So even though the modulation ends up being “Direct”, there was still a “process” that I went through as a composer that enabled that direct modulation to occur successfully.

So I think your bone to pick with the term is totally unwarranted. Direct modulation doesn’t mean that the composer took no thought of how to implement it. There is still a ‘process’ going on behind the scenes, there’s just no preparation in the previous measures that lead up to the modulation.

That’s all that “Direct Modulation” means.

I'm not ignorant, and I do not need the term explained to me by you.

Do not insult my intelligence.

I have finished discussing.

I'm not ignorant, and I do not need the term explained to me by you.

Do not insult my intelligence.

I have finished discussing.

No insult intended. Sorry if you were offended.

I guess Daniel has had a rough day :wub:?

Back to the ORIGINAL topic....

I use the "Steely Dan" approach...the chords loosely follow the melody, but not too closely- often the melody note is the 9th or some other wierd extension of the chord- usually alternating between major and minor chords, lots of tritones, somehow working it's way up to the new key....But I'm assuming you guys are talking about classical music, and this is more applicable to jazz....I suppose.....

~Kal

But I'm assuming you guys are talking about classical music, and this is more applicable to jazz....I suppose.....

~Kal

I didn't see anything anywhere that would indicate that the discussion should be restricted to classical music. The piece I'm currently writing is bluegrass for banjo and guitar.

Let me try and reel this thread back on topic, forgive if my hypothetical rod is too short.

I've found today that the arrival in any key is finalized by a leading tone. If the last chord before the new key is introduced contains the leading tone, the modulation will work. This goes similarly with the IV to I chord in many cases, but not all. I'm not sure why IV works, but it usually does. These solutions result in generally pleasing and unforced results. That trick is finding your way INTO either of these conditions while avoiding monotony or forced and strenuous progressions. Direct modulation from say I to #IV (or C to F#) just happens. The ear is forced to adjust to the new tonality. The process of modulation in most cases is to introduce the new tonality without this strain, as imperceptiple as it may seem. That is how I am seeing it now.

IV to I works because in a key 4 to 3 is also a leading tone, i.e. in C, IV-FAC->I-CEG. F->E = 4->3, a leading tone. It's just not as prominent as 7-8/1.

Now, I actually have a question of my own:

I've heard of "Circle-of-Fifths Modulation;" is that a technique or just the direction that an extended modulation follows?

Circle of Fifths Modulation is to my knowledge simply using the circle of fifths in one direction or another until the desired key is reached. Par example: C - F - Bb - Eb - Ab - Db

This can happen rather rapidly, like in eight notes or quarter notes, or it can occur over as many measure as you like. You can go on forever and stop anywhere, the only problem is it becomes monotonous. Can you just throw others chords in too to solve this? Like C - F - Bb - Eb - Bb - Ab - Eb - Ab - Db - Gb - Db

I've bolded where the circle of fifths lies, the rest are just mere interruptions.

This makes much sense, the only problem is is that it is still incredibly boring.

By educated guess, I would call it a technique as you described.

Since I don't really know what I'm talking about I'm going to shut up and let somebody else have a go at it. :unsure:

I didn't see anything anywhere that would indicate that the discussion should be restricted to classical music. The piece I'm currently writing is bluegrass for banjo and guitar.

Lol, fiesty, aren't we? I see your point, but I also didn't see anything related to Jazz....which is wh I said I "assume" you were talking about classical stuffs...

Let me try and reel this thread back on topic, forgive if my hypothetical rod is too short.

I've found today that the arrival in any key is finalized by a leading tone. If the last chord before the new key is introduced contains the leading tone, the modulation will work.

...Yes and no, in my opinion. I find that using the 5th of the new key when modulating helps more than the leading tone, i feel it gives me more possibilities of chords to use.

Sometimes, in minor keys especially, you can move from one key to the next (usually a whole step above) without any warning. I think modulating in minor keys are extremely easy. Major keys, on the other hand, are crappy wastes of time and shouldn't be used....:D

If you happen to have keyboard handy, try this:

I-II/III-VI ,the IV being the new key.

In C, that'd be: C - D/E - A(maj7ish)...the maj7 seems to resolve more....

As for the circle of fifths thing, it seems kind of difficult and awkward to use, but if you can get it to work, it would seem pretty cool....

~Kal

Major keys, on the other hand, are crappy wastes of time and shouldn't be used....:D

~Kal

How DARE you pick on the major keys! I LOVE the major keys! :D

I was thinking about tossing out the minor mode and all it's silly harmonic and melodic scales. It only needs those because it is a crippled mode to begin with.

(ha ha) :)

As for the circle of fifths thing, it seems kind of difficult and awkward to use, but if you can get it to work, it would seem pretty cool....

It's in a massive amount of music. I find it easy to use (harder to use well), so maybe you haven't understood it properly.

Take any chord, which you are treating as a tonic. Now treat it as the dominant of its subdominant.

E.g. C - which is the tonic. Now think of C as V of F.

Thus you move to F. Now think of F as V of Bb.

In this manner you can easy move from F to Bb to Ab to Db to Gb to B (Cb) to E (Fb) et cetera.

If this isn't convincing enough for you at this stage, make a dominant 7th out of each chord:

C --> C7 (C E G Bb) --> F --> F7 --> Bb --> Bb7 et cetera.

Try it.

Thanks for explaining that.

And I find that I rarely happen use major keys. Why? I don't know. It's not on purpose.

It's in a massive amount of music. I find it easy to use (harder to use well), so maybe you haven't understood it properly.

Take any chord, which you are treating as a tonic. Now treat it as the dominant of its subdominant.

E.g. C - which is the tonic. Now think of C as V of F.

Thus you move to F. Now think of F as V of Bb.

In this manner you can easy move from F to Bb to Ab to Db to Gb to B (Cb) to E (Fb) et cetera.

If this isn't convincing enough for you at this stage, make a dominant 7th out of each chord:

C --> C7 (C E G Bb) --> F --> F7 --> Bb --> Bb7 et cetera.

Try it.

hmm...intersting....with some nice harmonies that could be pretty useful....I've heard some songs use the circle of fifths thing as a vamp....more specifically 'Spinning Wheel' by who I forget...

Hard to use well indeed....

~Kal