Musical Illiteracy

Lately I have been astounded at the amount of rock muscians in my area who cannot read music while they still attempt to sing it and play guitar (they only read tabs). It seems to me that this is extremely limiting, but I suppose that it is the same with rock musicians. One excuse I got for not learning how to read music is that they say it will "ruin their creativeness". This does not make sense to me because once you learn how to read music it opens up many other possibilties.

What are everyone else's thoughts on musical illiteracy?

Musical illiteracy annoys me, but it's like learning a foreign language - only those with actual interest will push at it and make something out of it.

The younger music classes seem to be an excuse to slack off over here, and make funny noises with the recorder.

I try to get my friends to have some level of musical literacy, but aside from that, there is not much one can do.

Musical illiteracy is a very common phenomenon in crete, as well. There are gadzillions of guitarists/bassists/drummers but only a few musicians.

Every time I go to a (rock band) rehearsal and try to notate my part, everyone looks at me as if I am immersed in an alien ceremony or something like that. I have gotten used to it, but it's still quite sad.

Guitar/bass tablature is the poorest excuse for being-too-bored-to-acquire-musical-knowledge. The place is full of I-can-play-128ths-at-900bpm guitarists who don't know what they're playing. It seems that having bought an expensive guitar and some fancy foot pedals is more than enough.

At least this is a great chance for sarcasm. Every time I meet a person that tells me that he/she can play the guitar/bass, my next line is always;

"Gee, that's fascinating! Do you, by any chance, happen to be interested in music as well"?

Musicians (that play the guitar-yes, there are some of those) always appreciate the remark!

The main reason for music illiteracy is basically the same as for math illiteracy. It simply isn’t taught well by educational institutions. The formalistic approach scares people away from it.

Both math and music could be made much more attractive by simply presenting the topics in a way that is less threatening. Most people who are turned off to learning to read music or music theory were most likely turned of to it by stuffy teachers who genuinely had no clue about how to teach.

One bad thing about educational institutions is that they tend to hire teachers who are very knowledgeable in the field in which they teach. Unfortunately, those highly educated teachers are more often than not really lousy at the actual art of teaching. Students could learn much more from less educated teachers who know how to teach!

Also, the traditional pedagogical methods of teaching do not work equally well for all students. Many students would benefit from andragogical methods, even sometimes younger students. This really isn’t as much of an age thing as people often make it out to be. Some people just learn better with andragogical methods than with pedagogical methods at any age.

This is a HUMUNGOUS issue for me. I have fought with educational institutions over this basically all my life. Both as a student later as a teacher. I would have personally greatly benefited from andragogical teaching methods even at a very young age.

Here’s a brief synopsis for those who have no clue what I’m talking about:

Pedagogical and Andragogical Learning (article) by Lloydene F Hill on AuthorsDen

There’s a lot more to it than just that, but that give a ball-park idea of some of the major differences.

Here’s a quote from that article:

“Adults learn differently, and for different reasons, than do children and young adults, and their style is completely antithetic to that of the pedagogical learner.”

However, I have come to realize that this is not as dependent on age as one might think. Some younger individuals would benefit from andragogical methods, and some adults actually prefer the traditional pedagogical methods. I have come to realize that different people simply learn in differnet ways and the traditional pedagogical methods are simply not well-suited to a large part of the population. I think this is especially true for subjects such as math and music.

I’m a huge advocate of andragogical methods. So this is a really hot topic for me. And I seriously believe that it’s the ineffective traditional pedagogical methods that are responsible for the vast illiteracy of both music and mathematics. Even colleges employ pedagogical methods, yet many college students are clearly adults (some are obviously not).

I could rant on this topic forever. I’m extremely upset with educational institutions and their strict adherence to pedagogical methods. Some colleges are slowly waking up to the benefits of andragogical methods, but it’s a slow process, and I personally believe that andragogical methods would actually do well in grade schools.

So I put the blame high-schools and grade schools for simply failing to implement good teaching methods. Period.

Yes, those methods work well for SOME students, but obviously NOT for the MAJORITY. And that’s the sad part.

We could always invade other forums, and post musical literacy threads. :huh:

Of course it would have to be done tactfully, or you'd be ignored or it'd be deleted.

I don't know... I've always thought if someone wants to learn, they will learn, even despite a lousy teacher. If someone is truly interested, they will learn. Otherwise, they'll dabble.

How do you get a guitarist/bassist/singer(insert instrument to lampoon here) to play softer? Put music in front of them.

I'm not sure it's exactly necessary to know how to read music, etc. Sure I understand, but the practical way is also there, and... well...

well...

music notation is only for communication reasons. I have a piece of music and I send you the score, so you can play it. This no longer apply really. Take it in an mp3, listen to it for 1000s of times, and learn the piece. When you're in a band, follow the others etc...

The fact that people who can't read music, maybe missing a whole other world, is not really to the point either for me. Μακάριοι οι πτωχοί τω πνεύματι, Mano. ;) Ignorance is a blessing!

Just so that we confuse things, you know how I feel about education, how I work scores, and how I enjoy teaching actually. And tbh, sometimes I feel highly offended when I see people claiming they "know" music, or that they "are" composers etc. But this is small minded from my behalf, and I try to battle it. It is none of my business what other "colleagues" may want to do. My responsibility is to educate the audience, and not the "composers", or "musicians".

Does it make sense? :S

Well, I have to agree with Nikolas on this one. It's not exactly neccesary to learn standard notation when the only instrument you play is guitar/bass/drums. How many of you actually play one of these instruments? As far as just playing music is concerned (of course composing will be a different case), it's simply better to use tablature over standard notation when it comes to one of these three instruments. Guitar and bass are not like other instruments. There isn't just one A note on a guitar in a certain octave (yes I realize most instruments are capable of playing in more then just one octave). On piano, there will only be one A key and that's how it will always be. This is not true for guitar. Just in standard tuning alone, an A (in one octave is playable) in many different postions. The 12th fret on the A string, the 7th fret on the D string, the 17th fret on the E string, and the 2nd fret on the G string. This is all the all the same exact note. So, if a guitarist/bassist was learning a piece, and saw this A note on standard notation. He would have to spend a few minutes just trying to figure out what is the most logical position in which to play that note. Where as with tablature, he would know which position to play that note in a matter of seconds (assuming of course that the fingerings on the tab are logical). It simply doesn't make alot of sense to read anything but tabs when you are playing a piece on guitar. However, I'm not saying this is an excuse for musical illiteracy. I still think guitarists/bassists/drummer should learn standard notation. Not for playing sake, but for musical understanding. I don't claim to know alot about musical theory, and I am still very reliant on tablature. But I am slowly learning standard notation and music theory. I'm willing to admit that tablature is overall, not the best way to learn music. But from a guitarists stand point, tablature is the best way to play music. I don't think anyone who has any kind of experience with guitar would disagree with me on this. Basically, what I'm trying to say is, alot of guitarists are ignorant when it comes to understanding music (myself included) and they should learn standard notation as well as at least some theory (at least enough to explain why certain chord progressions work and why others don't) but there is a reason for their ignorance. I still mainly use tabs to play music, but I'm not going to defend only tab using guitarists. It really limits your understanding of other instruments and music in general. Reliance on tablature certainly has hurt me in terms of being a composer. But in terms of just playing guitar, I don't have any regrets about using tablature.

I've noticed on a great few occasions that often students will join an ensemble just to socialize. It's sad, really. Here in the USA, great many students join the marching band just because their friends are in it, just so they can be together and joke around. They aren't even very interested in learning to play their instrument. They don't have private teachers and they're always asking for fingerings. Or worse, they don't bother asking, they just say 'the hell with it' and insist playing the wrong notes. Whenever the director asks for something to happen in the music, they play it back only half-heartedly at best.

I've seen this in my youth orchestra, too. A few of the violinists come just for the opportunity to socialize. They never practice, and they never pay attention. What I don't get is that they had to pay a $130 USD tuition for the season, yet though don't really care to learn how to make music? What? Also, those who actaully are interested in music and join for the musical benifit are worshipped like idols. "Oh, he's so good, he know's everything!" I wish they would open themselves up to learning! They could be just as good if they cared or had enthusiam. Why join if you don't care to learn how to make music?

I do my best to keep up the enthusiam in these types of people and encourage their musical literacy, but it is sadly always an uphill battle.

music notation is only for communication reasons. I have a piece of music and I send you the score, so you can play it. This no longer apply really. Take it in an mp3, listen to it for 1000s of times, and learn the piece. When you're in a band, follow the others etc...

The fact that people who can't read music, maybe missing a whole other world, is not really to the point either for me. Μακάριοι οι πτωχοί τω πνεύματι, Mano. :shifty: Ignorance is a blessing!

I have to disagree with you on that one, Nikolas...musical literacy is not about learning to play a musical piece or just communication. I know a lot of wonderful players of traditional instruments that can't read a note.

But, take their music. Take guitarists' music. You listen to one piece, or two, and you've listened to them all. Music notation is not just about performing. It's not just about communication. It is about expanding your horizons and progressing in your craft. I feel that, if you do something, try to do it as best as you can.

'Ignorance is bliss' applies to music. But to the players only. The guitarist reads the tab, plays the Iron Maiden song and feels confident and kick-donkey by playing lightning-fast (but boring) solos and riffs. A literate person, on the other hand, studies Bartok (for example) and feels humbled, and small and this motivates him/her to struggle get better. On that point, ignorance might be bliss, but it is a static bliss.

Originally posted by Nirvana69

Well, I have to agree with Nikolas on this one. It's not exactly neccesary to learn standard notation when the only instrument you play is guitar/bass/drums. How many of you actually play one of these instruments? As far as just playing music is concerned (of course composing will be a different case), it's simply better to use tablature over standard notation when it comes to one of these three instruments. Guitar and bass are not like other instruments. There isn't just one A note on a guitar in a certain octave (yes I realize most instruments are capable of playing in more then just one octave). On piano, there will only be one A key and that's how it will always be. This is not true for guitar. Just in standard tuning alone, an A (in one octave is playable) in many different postions. The 12th fret on the A string, the 7th fret on the D string, the 17th fret on the E string, and the 2nd fret on the G string. This is all the all the same exact note. So, if a guitarist/bassist was learning a piece, and saw this A note on standard notation. He would have to spend a few minutes just trying to figure out what is the most logical position in which to play that note. Where as with tablature, he would know which position to play that note in a matter of seconds (assuming of course that the fingerings on the tab are logical). It simply doesn't make alot of sense to read anything but tabs when you are playing a piece on guitar. However, I'm not saying this is an excuse for musical illiteracy. I still think guitarists/bassists/drummer should learn standard notation. Not for playing sake, but for musical understanding. I don't claim to know alot about musical theory, and I am still very reliant on tablature. But I am slowly learning standard notation and music theory. I'm willing to admit that tablature is overall, not the best way to learn music. But from a guitarists stand point, tablature is the best way to play music. I don't think anyone who has any kind of experience with guitar would disagree with me on this. Basically, what I'm trying to say is, alot of guitarists are ignorant when it comes to understanding music (myself included) and they should learn standard notation as well as at least some theory (at least enough to explain why certain chord progressions work and why others don't) but there is a reason for their ignorance. I still mainly use tabs to play music, but I'm not going to defend only tab using guitarists. It really limits your understanding of other instruments and music in general. Reliance on tablature certainly has hurt me in terms of being a composer. But in terms of just playing guitar, I don't have any regrets about using tablature.

Nirvana69, you can't be more wrong on that one. I am an ex-guitarist and quite accomplished at that. Tablature was and is just a crutch for lazy players (I don't use the term 'musicians'). The reasons for it;

a) you don't understand what you're playing. Instead of that, you just rote memorize specific muscle motions.

b) you miss one of the most beautiful parts of music-phrasing. The choice of 'A's you have and the way you phrase them by using same/different string sets to produce a good fingering and nice sounding result is half the beauty of it. It's not carved in stone. It's your approach to a piece of music, your interpretation of a musical phrase and this is part of what constitutes a musician.

c) You learn to be lazy. Why try to learn and understand and approach in my own way the music I'm playing when I can just read the tab? And, the worse part of it is that laziness breeds laziness. It's more probable that you'll do the same with your next piece, as well (even though a thorough study of it would be much to your benefit).

I think it’s interesting how diverse everyone’s view is on this.

I agree with nikolas on the idea that music notation is just for communication. I have no patience with people who try to claim that sheet music conveys the music precisely. It most certainly does not.

There are countless examples of people who play great music but can’t read score. Conversely there are countless examples of people who can read score but can’t play music worth a darn.

There's a huge difference between playing music and reading score. Being good at one does not imply any ability for the other whatsoever.

Nirvana69, you can't be more wrong on that one. I am an ex-guitarist and quite accomplished at that. Tablature was and is just a crutch for lazy players (I don't use the term 'musicians'). The reasons for it;

a) you don't understand what you're playing. Instead of that, you just rote memorize specific muscle motions.

b) you miss one of the most beautiful parts of music-phrasing. The choice of 'A's you have and the way you phrase them by using same/different string sets to produce a good fingering and nice sounding result is half the beauty of it. It's not carved in stone. It's your approach to a piece of music, your interpretation of a musical phrase and this is part of what constitutes a musician.

c) You learn to be lazy. Why try to learn and understand and approach in my own way the music I'm playing when I can just read the tab? And, the worse part of it is that laziness breeds laziness. It's more probable that you'll do the same with your next piece, as well (even though a thorough study of it would be much to your benefit).

Are you addressing this to me particularly or to guitarists in general? Because if you're addressing this to me, then I feel a bit offended. Besides my user name (which was made when I was 12 by the way) and maybe a few of my songs, there is really no evidence to suggest that I am still somewhat tablature reliant, play guitar, or even that I listen to alot of rock music. This is because I've always made a point despite my own musical background to always expand my horizons. Despite the fact that the only instrument I know how to play currently is the guitar (though I will take up learning the piano eventually) and grew up listening to bands like Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, and Nirvana, I still make it a point to branch out musically. I've made it a point to listen to classical music even though in the beginning, I thought it was all dull and similar sounding. I have an appreciation for it now (though I'm still quite dense about it) and I think it has helped me grow as a composer. The same is true with videogame music which I never used to enjoy. My point is, you seem to be implying that guitarists/bassists/drummers or anyone who listens to rock music has no musical talent what so ever. This is just my comprehension of what you said and maybe I'm completly wrong but I still feel slightly offended by your possible remarks. I would not consider myself a great musical talent by any means, but I do think I have some musical talent (at least when it comes to composing) and I find it insulting to say that just because I play guitar I can by default, have no musical talent or understanding. Guitarists can be musicians too. To say otherwise seems kinda condescending. However, I do agree with you somewhat, guitarists who only play what they see written on the tabs, and have no understanding of what they are playing are not musicians. For example, I have a friend who can barely even remember the notes that are in standard tuning. This of course is E A D G B E but he doesn't know that. He also has no understanding of scales and it takes him minutes at a time just to figure out what note he is playing on what fret. I would not call people like this musicians, and sadly the larger percentage of guitarists out there are like that. But there are some of us, that despite playing guitar, strive to not just play music but to understand it. Anyway, I've ranted long enough. I really shouldn't be arguing, me and you essentially agree, tabs are for lazy people and they hurt your musical comprehension. I never said that wasn't true. I just said that from a guitarists point of view (who has no desire to do anything but play his favorite songs from the radio on guitar) it makes very little sense to actually learn standard notation when tabs are much easier to read. That is all I said. And I'm sorry for this big long rant.

Are you addressing this to me particularly or to guitarists in general? Because if you're addressing this to me, then I feel a bit offended. Besides my user name (which was made when I was 12 by the way) and maybe a few of my songs, there is really no evidence to suggest that I am still somewhat tablature reliant, play guitar, or even that I listen to alot of rock music. This is because I've always made a point despite my own musical background to always expand my horizons. Despite the fact that the only instrument I know how to play currently is the guitar (though I will take up learning the piano eventually) and grew up listening to bands like Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, and Nirvana, I still make it a point to branch out musically. I've made it a point to listen to classical music even though in the beginning, I thought it was all dull and similar sounding. I have an appreciation for it now (though I'm still quite dense about it) and I think it has helped me grow as a composer. The same is true with videogame music which I never used to enjoy. My point is, you seem to be implying that guitarists/bassists/drummers or anyone who listens to rock music has no musical talent what so ever. This is just my comprehension of what you said and maybe I'm completly wrong but I still feel slightly offended by your possible remarks. I would not consider myself a great musical talent by any means, but I do think I have some musical talent (at least when it comes to composing) and I find it insulting to say that just because I play guitar I can by default, have no musical talent or understanding. Guitarists can be musicians too. To say otherwise seems kinda condescending. However, I do agree with you somewhat, guitarists who only play what they see written on the tabs, and have no understanding of what they are playing are not musicians. For example, I have a friend who can barely even remember the notes that are in standard tuning. This of course is E A D G B E but he doesn't know that. He also has no understanding of scales and it takes him minutes at a time just to figure out what note he is playing on what fret. I would not call people like this musicians, and sadly the larger percentage of guitarists out there are like that. But there are some of us, that despite playing guitar, strive to not just play music but to understand it. Anyway, I've ranted long enough. I really shouldn't be arguing, me and you essentially agree, tabs are for lazy people and they hurt your musical comprehension. I never said that wasn't true. I just said that from a guitarists point of view (who has no desire to do anything but play his favorite songs from the radio on guitar) it makes very little sense to actually learn standard notation when tabs are much easier to read. That is all I said. And I'm sorry for this big long rant.

My post was triggered by your comment, but it wasn't by any means, directed especially at you. What offends you is your own view of your musicianship and what you choose to do with music written before you or floating in your head. Sorry if it came across that way, but I don't think I have directed anything in your specific direction.

Never did I imply that rock players have no talent. Please, don't put words in my mouth. Granted, there are even (some) musicians among them. But they're mostly technicians, which, for me, means that they can play very fast and very accurately, but, when you tell them to play it from Eb (for example), they get that cow-like look on their face, start to fish around for the Eb and finally ask you my favorite question;

Said by a gadzillion clueless guitarists every day;

"Huh, like, what fret is, like, Eb"?

And this is so common...the times I've heard this (yes, even with Eb are countless)...this used to make me very angry. Now it just makes me feel sadness and pity.

PS. Ranting's good for you! :w00t:

Oh okay, then I have no problem. I thought you were directing some of your attack towards me, and I didn't really aprpeciate that. Not because I think I am a great composer or musician but mainly because I try to expand my musical understanding and not just limit myself to a bunch of simple power chord riffs like many guitarists do. I also wasn't completly sure if you were saying all guitar players had no talent or not. But now that you have explained your theory a little better, I do agree with it. Rock guitarists for the most part are technicians. They can play (or I guess the more popular term is "shred") their way through an E major scale in three octaves at 200 BPM or sweep pick an F Minor at lightning speed because they saw it played before in an Iron Maiden solo or something. But there is no point to any of that if they don't understand what the E Major Scale is or what notes make up an F Minor. Some guitarists I am shocked do not even understand what tonality is. I'm not saying that they don't understand what it means when a piece is in D major, but I am saying that they don't even understand that such a thing as tonality exists. So yes, when it gets to that point, they really aren't musicians. But there is always the occasional guitarist who actually tries to apply himself and learn musical theory. I admire these guitarists because while it's obviously not required to have any real understanding of music to play guitar, they go above and beyond this and try to understand music anyway.

No problem, there wasn't any attack in my post. Just my personal opinion.

Iron Maiden have never sweep picked any chord, as far as I know! :w00t:

Guitarists still manage to shock me with their ignorance. You won't know the times I have actually taken their hand and placed the fingers in the desired position...drat, tablature creates musical cripples.

Iron Maiden have never sweep picked any chord, as far as I know!

Not quite true (not that I should know this..)

tablature creates musical cripples.

Just curious by the way, how many people here who play guitar can actually read from notation, as opposed to tablature?

Piano is my first instrument, so I'm very used to using the notation associated with it. Now, granted I suck at guitar, no skills whatsoever, I can't read tablature to save the life of me. I understand it and all, but reading it is just so slow for me. I can play fine from notation, though, as long as the music doesn't stray too far from the nut. Either bass clef or treble clef doesn't matter, I can read guitar music better from either of those than tabs.

Not quite true (not that I should know this..)

Much truer.

I've never seen/heard sweeping in Maiden, what song? And which guitarist?

Just curious by the way, how many people here who play guitar can actually read from notation, as opposed to tablature?

The guitar was my first instrument. I played lead guitar in a rock band in high school. I originally learned to read regular music notation. However, many guitar books simply contained tablature, especially the pop music. Tab just sold better I guess.

I had no problem at all reading tab. It’s just a picture of the guitar fingerboard with numbers indicating which frets should be played. Even when I used tab I would often reject their fingerings and go with my own. I knew where the notes were so when I read tab I could easily call out the name of the note for each fret. In fact, tablature actually helped me to learn where the notes were in the higher positions.

Tablature is usually published with the regular score just above it. So anyone who wants to learn to read music can actually use tablature to help learn where the notes are.

My problem with music back then was not in reading the pitches. Reading pitches is the easy part! It was trying to read the timing that blew me away. It wasn’t that I didn’t understand how to read it. It was simply that I just couldn’t do it fluently. So I just used music notation to learn the pitches of a tune. I would simply listen to recordings to learn the meter and dynamics. After all, I was always playing pop music so it was being played on the radio all the time. No problem finding a recording of it!

After high school I played the banjo for a while. The music for banjo is very often sold in tablature form. In fact, it almost has to be because where you play the notes is very IMPORTANT on a banjo so tablature is actually quite good for a banjo.

Then I quit music altogether for several decades. I only recently got back into it. I’m now learning to play piano, violin, classical guitar, flute, clarinet, trumpet and cello (and banjo again!). I use standard music notation for all instruments except the banjo. Banjo still works better with tablature. There are simply too many different places that a single note can be played on a banjo. It’s much better to have an idea of what the composer had in mind. Most banjo music is written by people who can actually play the instrument. So with tablature they are actually showing you where they played what they wrote! This is GOOD!

So tablature has it’s place. A harmonica works better with tab too, I think.

I never saw tab as a crutch or cop-out to learning standard score. But I suppose a lot of people do. To me it’s just another means of communication which is how I view score anyway.

But I agree that anyone who doesn't even know the names of notes or where they are on their instrument (or on the staff) is really depriving themselves of some really useful information.

Just curious by the way, how many people here who play guitar can actually read from notation, as opposed to tablature?

As I started on electric guitar, I learnt tab to begin with. However, when I went over to classical guitar I had an awful lot of work to do to learn how to read notation, and wished I'd learnt it from the start.

Now I'm fairly fluent at sight reading with guitar I don't find it any more difficult than tab at all. And the argument that there are loads of ways of playing the same note on guitar is ridiculous as if there's any ambiguity at all as to where a particular note should be played then there will be a number next to it to indicate where to play it.

Not quite true (not that I should know this..)

I don't recall sweep picking in any of Maiden's works. Maybe you could enlighten us with proof? I am somewhat curious.

Now I'm fairly fluent at sight reading with guitar I don't find it any more difficult than tab at all. And the argument that there are loads of ways of playing the same note on guitar is ridiculous as if there's any ambiguity at all as to where a particular note should be played then there will be a number next to it to indicate where to play it.

Yes, if you learn to sight read, it's as easy as tab. And you understand what the heck you're playing.

But I disagree on the other subject. Why shouldn't there be other ways of phrasing the same music? I've seen countless examples of dysfunctional (for me) phrasings in guitar music (not just fingerings, but slurs etc) and I've changed them with ones that I prefer better. Ambiguity is not an obstacle. It's freedom! Actually, it was one of the best parts of guitar playing, for me. It is one of the best parts of musicianship for all musical instruments, by the way.

there is a line between the word "musician" and someone who can play an instrument. I am bugged infinitely by people who can't read music. I play various instruments, but one time I was over at a friends, who has a garage band, and he wanted me to play the keys. I said "what key are we in?" and he had no clue. I had to look at the tab, which I had to figure out, because he didn't know the notes, and finally figured that it was in G. that was just stupid. certainly, you can't jam, in that kind of scenario. and more importantly, it's just inconvenient if you are ever playing with the literate. those people don't want to learn, that's why they are in a garage band. they want to just screw around and not do other things. or at least, I believe that's the majority.

if you're making millions, why would u WANT to change how you write your music?

Just curious by the way, how many people here who play guitar can actually read from notation, as opposed to tablature?

I've played guitar for 11 years, and I actually knew how to read notation before I ever came across tab, because I started off learning classical guitar. I do play in a "rock band" by the way (though hopefully a slightly more adventurous one than most :thumbsup: )

Anyway, reading notation doesnt necessarily equate to understanding how music works. I know plenty of musicians who can read but wouldnt have a clue about say, why a particular chord goes to another one or anything like that. For these people notation is just as much a form of communication as tab is for the rock guitarist.

We seem to be loooking at this from a real 'composition' point of view, but there are plenty of musicians out there who are performers far more than composers, who don't necesasrily know how music "works" but can play great music all the same. There were, and are, for example really talented jazz musicians who can't read, but have picked up everything they know by ear, and are they worse for having learned that way, rather than off paper?

Of course reading notation can teach you a lot about composing but I think it's really stupid to say someone's not a musician if they can't read cos in the end, for me, it all comes down to the music one makes, not how or with what knowledge or technique it's made.

I don't recall sweep picking in any of Maiden's works. Maybe you could enlighten us with proof? I am somewhat curious.

I'm not sure if I remember right, but I think it was in Dave Murray's solo in Fear of the Dark where he sweep picked a little (four-note) arpeggio of F#min (to be exact - F#4, A4, C#5, F#5) and this being a part of the final cadence of the solo, which would suggest the solo be in F#minor - that fits well since I remember they do a rapid modulation a whole step up from the song's key before his solo (which is guess what!! E minor as in 90% of metal songs:toothygrin:).

But I could be wrong, it's possible I've heard it on some live version, I would have to check it out.