Instruments acceptable in a symphony.....

I am currently writing my first symphony after trashing many before this one due to my own dislike. I am currently writing the second movement and I have a harp part included. I was wondering if this was against the rules of symphony writing. I believe Mahler uses one is his symphony in G Major symphony. Just writing to inquire. I like the harp part and wouldnt know how to replace it if it was not acceptable. THANKS!

-T.J. Menzel

everything goes in a symphony. look at berlioz's Symphony fantastique. he used everything. and I mean everything. plus, his orchestra was massive... I think that if you are going to be a traditionalist, the harp should be fine even then, really. however, certainly, modern symphonies? go for it.

Harp? Heck yeah. Go for it. Some symphony orchestras even hire two harpists I believe so that the part can be heard better. Harp's great instrument for orchestra.

the only real consideration is how many of which instruments are you using.

If you ask for a saxophone in your piece, then either the 2nd (or 3rd) clarinetist will play that instrument as an "auxilliary" instrument. Remember that the orchestra will ahve to pay him extra for that. So money IS a consideration.

if on the other hand you ak for 6 saxophones in your symphony, then you simply risk being refused everywhere you submit the work... very few orchestras will spend the extra money to hire the extra musicians for something like that.

An orchestra traditionally has the following musicians available:

(numbers in brackets are for large orchestras)

2 flutes (3, with the 3rd doubling on piccolo)

2 oboes (3, with the third doubling on Cor anglais)

2 clarinets (3, with the 3rd doubling bass clarinet or small clarinet)

2 bassoons (3, with the 3rd doubling on contrabassoon)

4 horns (6 - large orchestras often have people on standby for larger scores)

2 trumpets (3, or sometimes 4, again, many large orchestras already have people on standby)

3 trombones

1 tuba

1 timpanist

3-6 percussionists (this varies a LOT between orchestras)

1-2 harps

1 piano (very optional.. many orchestras do not have one "on staff")

strings generally have around the following numbers:

14 1st violins

12 2nd violins

8 violas

8 cellos

6 contrabasses

the numbers for the string section are a very general idea. Some smaller orchestras have fewer, while some really large major orchestras can have many more.

If you have anything that is outside these norms, then you might contact whichever orchestra you had in mind to find out how many musicians they have.

Since this is a "first symphony" (so I'm going to assume "first lareg-scale symphonic work") then it might be best to remain relatively restricted and within the normal quantities of instruments.

I've heard before that it is the first chair flutist that played the piccolo if it were called for. :P Also, I've only ever seen in several sources seating arrangements that called for four of each woodwind, I have yet to see any for only two each. Granted, I understand that non-large-ish orchestras would have only the two, since that is all that is really necessary in most cases.

4 Fl, 4 Cl, 4 Ob, 4 Bsn. In this case, as far as I've heard, it is the first flute that plays piccolo and the first clarinet that plays piccolo or Eb clarinet. Is this arrangement also true in addition to what you just said depending on the orchestra? Also, would it be the first or third chair trumpet usually to play a piccolo trumpet? Aaand, who would play euphonium, tubist or last trombonist?

Also, I've never heard of having six horn players, but I know that most orchestras have five, whereas the fifth plays for the first so that the first player can rest and preserve him/herself for exposed passages. Is six really fairly common?

And one more thing, I've usually seen professional string sections that have 12, 14, or 16 on first violin. From however many 1st's there are, there are usually 2 fewer 2nd's. And so one. What I've seen usually goes like this:

14 firsts, 12 seconds, 10 viola, 8 'celli, and 4 basses. I've never seen any more than 4 basses in an orchestra. Again, as if it really matters, is more than 4 basses not uncommon?

Sorry if I'm attacking you with questions like this out of the blue. :toothygrin: I'd really appreciate what you'd have to say.

In a major symphony orchestra, having 8 or even 10 basses is not too unusual.

As for winds: a chamber orchestra will typically have 2 of each, and this is sufficient to play almost all Classical era symphonies. Since then, the orchestra has expanded some, so that 3 of each woodwind are considered standard, and additional players are hired if more are needed.

In brass sectons, as you said, 4-5 horns is pretty normal (5th playing parts of the 1st horn part) but some works, such as Holst's The Planets, call for as many as 6. An orchestra rarely has 6 horn players on stage, but professional orchestras tend to have a 6th horn player available as needed, either for large scores or as a substitute.

If a euphonium player is needed (also the case in The Planets), either the tubist plays the part (unusual, since there's usually also a tuba part) or an extra player is hired.

ok, auxilliary instruments are NEVER played by the 1st chair, always by 2nd or 3rd chair (depending ont eh size of the orchestra).

You may have thought it was the 1st chair playing the piccolo or Eb clarinet, but I am 99.99% sure it wasn't. 1st chairs usually keep themselves for exposed solos.

4 of each woodwind is a large orchestra, there aren't actually that many scores asking for it, although it's not considered "exceptionally large" (that would be 5 of each woodwind! hehehe)

If you are going to the New York Philharmonic, or the London Symphony, then you are seeing a "large" orchestra. On the other hand, if you are going to a concert of the Laval Symphony (yes, a professional ensemble) or the Long Island Philharmonic (grand name for a smallish orchestra, sadly, now defunct) then you will be seeing an orchestra on the smaller end of the spectrum.

To all the people here who live in cities with orchestras that regularly make CD recordings, don't expect that those orchestras are the "norm". They are the "royalty" of orchestras. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of smaller symphony orchestras out there, all professional, all of a very high calibre, but with less than 100 players. A "large" symphony normally has 100-110 players (or more) while a smaller symphony orchestra may have 50-60 players on staff.

The entire point I was making in my original post is to know for whom you are writing, and know what to expect when your orchestral requirements exceed what an ensemble can afford to pay. Sure, Strawinski used a massive orchestra for Le Sacre, and Sch

If you are able to do so, just take a look to the 8th Malher's Symphony. Tath's really huge, including if I remember well 3 choirs (one of children), a fanfare outside the stage, and even a mandolin playing between all those monsters! Last year I sang as a tenor of it, with more than 400 voices, and two normal-size orchestras playing toghether. We were, in total, near 650 people!

On 8/29/2007 at 1:00 PM, Guest bryanholmes said:

If you are able to do so, just take a look to the 8th Malher's Symphony. Tath's really huge, including if I remember well 3 choirs (one of children), a fanfare outside the stage, and even a mandolin playing between all those monsters! Last year I sang as a tenor of it, with more than 400 voices, and two normal-size orchestras playing toghether. We were, in total, near 650 people!

 

Mahler's 8th Symphony is indeed massive, featuring three choirs, including one for children, a fanfare outside the stage, and even a mandolin.