How do you compose?

First I have a tune stuck in my head, and since I don't have perfect pitch, I have no idea what key it is in. If I start composing in the wrong key, I can't get anywhere and I just stop. If I start in the right key, I write all the parts from top to bottom simultaneously. No piano sketch. Just straight from my head onto Sibelius

So far what how I've composed:

I get on my keyboard and fiddle around until I come up with something good. I record it in the sequencer. Then I record on top of it with more instruments.

I probably need to become more organized when I compose, how do you guys prepare or pre-plan your pieces if you do?

I compose sitting down...mostly.

Well, that sure beats the alternative... :ermm:

Anyways, I think a good question is, how many people here actually DO plan their pieces out? I for one for one do not, I just write whatever feels natural as I progress.

I think a good question is, how many people here actually DO plan their pieces out? I for one for one do not, I just write whatever feels natural as I progress.

Worth a thread, I suppose. For me, it depends on the situation and context - how it plays out in my head during the cerebral contextualization phase.

Anyways, I think a good question is, how many people here actually DO plan their pieces out? I for one for one do not, I just write whatever feels natural as I progress.

For me, it's mostly a matter of "size" (both of how many instruments are playing and how long it is). I don't tend to make plans for a one minute piano miniature, but if I'm writing an orchestral piece I might just work conceptually for several months before I even write down a single note. Of course this isn't the only factor. Sometimes I want to have a high level of control over my pieces, so I'm very careful at thinking about the whole thing before writing, sometimes I want to write a piece to "relax" and simply write whatever comes to mind (but actually, that mostly -are- piano miniatures, or songs). And sometimes I -wish- to plan a piece carefully but I simply don't have the time to do it thoroughly because it has to be finished by a certain date (which is, unfortunately, quite often the case).

Anyways, I think a good question is, how many people here actually DO plan their pieces out? I for one for one do not, I just write whatever feels natural as I progress.

Depends on what I want to do. Some stuff isn't just "sit down and write", some stuff requires you to have a very good grip of the instrument for the effects you want, so a lot of time goes into researching, talking to fellow musicians, and the like. Though it gets easier with practice, sometimes there's junk you simply have to ask around.

Even after I get all the technical questions and possibilities "down", then writing is still depending on what I wanted to do. A lot of the times I just start out with a main goal for a composition, and work from there with the material I set myself to work with.

Then there's stuff I just write out experimentation, or because I feel like getting things down on paper (or directly into sound if it's something electronic, etc.) Though, I don't plan pieces for very long when I do, usually it's just a feeling I want/material I want to work with/direction (sometimes form, misc elements) and that's it.

Though I'm a huge fan of improvisation and I do that real often, I generally never write the stuff I improvise since what I improvise is usually the result of stuff I was working with on notation and such. A teacher/friend of mine said that one should be able (and prefer) to write music without actually sitting at/with an instrument.

I agree with that on a lot of levels, though I don't think it's so black/white either. You can get ideas from playing a piano just like you can from making toasts or vacuuming your apartment.

Just like, for me, the whole point of a proper composition "process" is both not writing what just "comes out" and yet listening to that intuitive impulse, but filtering it through what I actually WANT to do, not what I'm used to or what simply comes out without my conscious help or say. I don't think a composition written as "just what came out" is less valuable as a 10 month plan & score. They're just different things, and I think both of them provide invaluable experience to just about any composer.

Specially when faced with something like "total freedom", which is really the hardest thing to work with. If you're sticking to a historical overall style, tone-system or any number of "composition techniques" such as 12-tone, etc, you're just limiting your options so you can make better use of the available musical material (Down to note frequencies themselves, instruments, scales, ETC). Writing with "total freedom" means a lot of the times that this process inherent of tone systems (and traditional parameters, norms) and such must be done from the start with self-defined parameters. After all, while the idea of an infinite symphony of infinite sounds is fun, it's hardly desirable in practice.

Then there's the question of aesthetic opinion and how to actually pick which material best represents what person has in mind. But anyways, that's all for an entire thread on its own, so~

Writing without any planning or control over what you're doing and just "winging it" is an immature and unrefined way of composing music. I'm very concerned about form and concepts of sound when writing a piece. By this, mean I have a general idea of what I'm going to do with a piece before I start writing, as far as texture, thematic material, form, etc. This is what seperates a floundering unrefined hodge-podge piece from Debussy. It's that control that we seek as composers. Composing music, no matter who you are or what style, isn't just about "winging it" and throwing some notes together.

"BUT WHAT ABOUT IMPROVISATION BUDDY!??!"

If anyone seriously says that to me, they've definitely never studied improvisation, especially in jazz. Dear Buddah, there is no musician I respect for than the jazz improviser, it takes so much musical control.

So anyway, I'm not surprised that some people on here actually say, "Who PLANS out a piece?! What nonsense!" Because that is why you can't get to that next level of composition/musicianship.

I probably need to become more organized when I compose, how do you guys prepare or pre-plan your pieces if you do?

Good question, Monkey! I'll generally go over how I planned out a piece I'm working on now and the process in writing it.

Pre-Production:

1) I have many trumpet player friends who ask me to write stuff for them, so I decided to write a piece for Trumpet and Piano. But I didn't want it to be just some typical work, so there's an initiative right there, that first germ to get working.

2) Concept: What's the piece going to about? What soundscape am I going to paint, metaphorically speaking, with this music. Well I wanted to write something more programmatic than I have done in the past, and I started thinking about words that I found very evocative. The word that stuck in my mind was "diesel". That eventually blossomed into doing a "tone poem" (though my professor doesn't want me to officially call it that, and frankly I agree with him, what with the stigma). So not a tone poem, but a high programmatic work on the life of diesel engine inventor Rudolf Diesel. But how am I going to do this while still staying musically coherent and not falling victim to postmodern programmatic gimmicks? I then did my research on Rudolf Diesel and decided what I was going to do thematically and what with timbre, etc.

3) Planning out the form: At first I settled on 4 movements, each with one basic snapshot of Diesel's life.

Mvt. I - Childhood, Alone

Mvt. II - Childhood, Intellectual curiosity

Mvt. III - Invention of the Diesel engine

Mvt. IV - The Last Years

4) Planning harmonic vocabulary: Especially with a piece like this, I'm using certain techniques, more than usual, to harness the sounds that I want. Corigliano said in an interview that technique is not a style, "I use aleatoric techniques...12-tone techniques" which I definitely agree with. I have things at my disposal and if something works I'm going to use it. Of course it still needs to be cohesive, but that in itself is a technique, haha. Anyway for instance, the first movement has its harmonic underpinning extracted from Rudolf Diesel's date of birth actually. Like this...

March 18, 1858 - OR - 03/18/1858 - OR - C Eb Db Ab Db Ab F Ab

There are really only 5 unique pitches (which I turn into 6 at some points, since it's basically Db and C minor triads), but it was this sort of polytonal idea, along with what I was doing motivically that jet started that first movement. I won't really go further into the details of what I'm doing since I'd need to post score excerpts and all that shiz.

After all this is basically done, I just have to work on a movement by movement basis of how I'm going to handle them. There has to be balance in length of course, the work will be about 12-15 minutes long. I've basically got the first movement done. I always see people on here saying they don't finish pieces which is a shame. But I know why they don't finish, and it's because they don't utilize control in their writing and back themselves into a corner. You've GOT TO GOT TO GOT TO use control when you're writing. I don't care what it is, it could be the most aleatoric, dissonant free-form stuff I've ever heard, but that scraggy still needs to have control. Webern certainly didn't just throw some dots on a page and call it a day. So yeah, I hope this post helps you or anyone else on this board.

Composing music, no matter who you are or what style, isn't just about "winging it" and throwing some notes together.

(cut)

So anyway, I'm not surprised that some people on here actually say, "Who PLANS out a piece?! What nonsense!" Because that is why you can't get to that next level of composition/musicianship.

Sure it ain't, it's about winging it and throwing the GOOD notes together!

LEVEL UP!

I thought it was a great post gms. Very similar to the way I work.

Ways to compose... (that you might not learn in school)

1. Improvise. Not jazz (necessarily). Not necessarily on the piano. Start with a mood, a rhythm, a motif, an image. Try out all kinds of things: melody, harmony, timbre, rhythm. When something interesting comes along, stay with it a while, turn it up, down, sideways.

2. Listen. Listen to all sorts of music. Listen to kinds of music you have never heard before. If you listen to opera a lot, try country western. If you listen to Bach, try African drumming or a gamelan orchestra. Listen with wonder. Listen and see what you can steal - rhythm, timbre, extended techniques, form, atmosphere, harmonies.

3. Write the program notes first. Describe in words what the piece is like in a sentence. Then a couple. Then a paragraph. Then two, then four. Keep adding detail. Don't stop because you're not sure; write something, anything. You can always change it later. Keep going at all costs. Give it a name (a title). Then translate the text into notation, perhaps very generally at first: a key, a style, a mood, a tempo, an instrumentation, an amount of time or number of measures. Add detail later, the way a sculptor creates a statue. The detail comes last. Just get the general outline done first, very briefly.

4. Make a diagram. Something like a city skyline or mountain range can show how you want the piece to build, where the peaks are, how long or how fast you want to go up or down. Make squiggles, loops, jagged lines, playful doodles. Draw how you feel. If you allow yourself to precede music notation with other forms of graphic notation, you can get a lot of place quickly that only notation can't take you. Eventually you can start translating the squiggles into regular notation. But let your fancy off its lease for a while and see what happens.

5. Write lots of short stuff. Write quickly; throw a lot of it away. Grab for more paper and write some more. If you go for quality - i.e. try to write an immortal work for the ages - you'll agonize over every note and soon grind to a halt. Be playful. Write and write some more. Writer's block? No problem. Write whole notes. Lots of them. Write quarter notes. Play your piece or sing it at the top of your lungs. Have a good laugh at yourself, throw it away and keep writing. Read Joel Saltzman's "If You Talk, You Can Write." Just substitute "compose" for "write" all through the book.

6. Be honest. Write what you like to hear, what you would like to play - not what you think is going to impress someone else.

That's a start....

5. Write lots of short stuff. Write quickly; throw a lot of it away. Grab for more paper and write some more. If you go for quality - i.e. try to write an immortal work for the ages - you'll agonize over every note and soon grind to a halt. Be playful. Write and write some more. Writer's block? No problem. Write whole notes. Lots of them. Write quarter notes. Play your piece or sing it at the top of your lungs. Have a good laugh at yourself, throw it away and keep writing.

That's a start....

That's perfect. I often grind to a halt as I agonize over the correct notes. I'm going to do this in the coming weekend and have some fun.

5. Write lots of short stuff. Write quickly; throw a lot of it away. Grab for more paper and write some more. If you go for quality - i.e. try to write an immortal work for the ages - you'll agonize over every note and soon grind to a halt. Be playful. Write and write some more. Writer's block? No problem. Write whole notes. Lots of them. Write quarter notes. Play your piece or sing it at the top of your lungs. Have a good laugh at yourself, throw it away and keep writing. Read Joel Saltzman's "If You Talk, You Can Write." Just substitute "compose" for "write" all through the book.

So ignore the concept of writing something good? I agonize over every note, not because I'm trying to write "an immortal work", that's ridiculous. It's because I want my music to be good, and not half-assed. This is also very important considering that, well, I don't know about you but I write for performances. Everything I write will be performed, I'm not just doing it to fulfill some sort of selfish desire, once I'm finished with whatever it is I'm writing it will be relinquished and in the hands of the performer and soon the ears of a listener. The ears of the performer too, and that work is a representation of my quality as a composer and a musician. I don't take this lightly by any stretch.

Ways to compose... (that you might not learn in school)

1. Improvise. Not jazz (necessarily). Not necessarily on the piano. Start with a mood, a rhythm, a motif, an image. Try out all kinds of things: melody, harmony, timbre, rhythm. When something interesting comes along, stay with it a while, turn it up, down, sideways.

2. Listen. Listen to all sorts of music. Listen to kinds of music you have never heard before. If you listen to opera a lot, try country western. If you listen to Bach, try African drumming or a gamelan orchestra. Listen with wonder. Listen and see what you can steal - rhythm, timbre, extended techniques, form, atmosphere, harmonies.

3. Write the program notes first. Describe in words what the piece is like in a sentence. Then a couple. Then a paragraph. Then two, then four. Keep adding detail. Don't stop because you're not sure; write something, anything. You can always change it later. Keep going at all costs. Give it a name (a title). Then translate the text into notation, perhaps very generally at first: a key, a style, a mood, a tempo, an instrumentation, an amount of time or number of measures. Add detail later, the way a sculptor creates a statue. The detail comes last. Just get the general outline done first, very briefly.

4. Make a diagram. Something like a city skyline or mountain range can show how you want the piece to build, where the peaks are, how long or how fast you want to go up or down. Make squiggles, loops, jagged lines, playful doodles. Draw how you feel. If you allow yourself to precede music notation with other forms of graphic notation, you can get a lot of place quickly that only notation can't take you. Eventually you can start translating the squiggles into regular notation. But let your fancy off its lease for a while and see what happens.

5. Write lots of short stuff. Write quickly; throw a lot of it away. Grab for more paper and write some more. If you go for quality - i.e. try to write an immortal work for the ages - you'll agonize over every note and soon grind to a halt. Be playful. Write and write some more. Writer's block? No problem. Write whole notes. Lots of them. Write quarter notes. Play your piece or sing it at the top of your lungs. Have a good laugh at yourself, throw it away and keep writing. Read Joel Saltzman's "If You Talk, You Can Write." Just substitute "compose" for "write" all through the book.

6. Be honest. Write what you like to hear, what you would like to play - not what you think is going to impress someone else.

That's a start....

The only thing I would change in this is switching points 1 and 2 around. (Yes I know thats a petty little complaint.... but still)

Not because one should try to use them in an order (or maybe...) but because no matter what you are doing: composing, trying to compose, going on a date (especially that one...lol), or even washing the dishes; you should be listening...

Why?

Because that's what music is really all about. Listening.

Anytime I find myself stuck, confused or trapped by writers block, it's usually because I stopped listening to the world around me.

:)

So ignore the concept of writing something good? I agonize over every note, not because I'm trying to write "an immortal work", that's ridiculous. It's because I want my music to be good, and not half-assed. This is also very important considering that, well, I don't know about you but I write for performances. Everything I write will be performed, I'm not just doing it to fulfill some sort of selfish desire, once I'm finished with whatever it is I'm writing it will be relinquished and in the hands of the performer and soon the ears of a listener. The ears of the performer too, and that work is a representation of my quality as a composer and a musician. I don't take this lightly by any stretch.

There are a lot of different ways to achieve quality. Yours is one, but it can also work to write huge quantities and picking out the best afterwards (which can also be an agonizingly hard process). Often it will be a mixture: We write with the intention to create something really good, but still a lot of it might prove a bad idea when we look at it a day later and we throw it away again. Forcing yourself to always write the absolutely best possible note at every moment may just completely block you, so it might not be a bad idea to simply write down lots of stuff and examine later whether to continue with it or whether to throw it away. Writing something down can clarify a thought process in ways that might not be achieved purely in thought. I have experienced it so often that ideas that appear great in my mind turn out to be completely useless once I write them down and look at them "from the outside", and other ideas I didn't give much thought turn out surprisingly good once I write them down and look at them again a bit later.

Not to mention that "agonizing over every note" can lead to a loss of the big picture.

Troof!

Brahms: "You must write a lot, day after day, and not think that what you are writing always has to be something significant. As far as songs go, you will write many songs before a usable one emerges." This from a guy who didn't finish his first symphony until he was 43. He agonized over every note for YEARS before he was satisfied.

How many of the lines in Beethoven's notebooks actually ended up in a piece of music? More importantly, how many didn't?

Remember the Nike slogan?

Just Do It.

There are a lot of different ways to achieve quality. Yours is one, but it can also work to write huge quantities and picking out the best afterwards (which can also be an agonizingly hard process). Often it will be a mixture: We write with the intention to create something really good, but still a lot of it might prove a bad idea when we look at it a day later and we throw it away again. Forcing yourself to always write the absolutely best possible note at every moment may just completely block you, so it might not be a bad idea to simply write down lots of stuff and examine later whether to continue with it or whether to throw it away. Writing something down can clarify a thought process in ways that might not be achieved purely in thought. I have experienced it so often that ideas that appear great in my mind turn out to be completely useless once I write them down and look at them "from the outside", and other ideas I didn't give much thought turn out surprisingly good once I write them down and look at them again a bit later.

Not to mention that "agonizing over every note" can lead to a loss of the big picture.

I shouldn't say "agonizing over every note". Obviously that's a bit ridiculous and I don't do that. I normally go through several actual sets of material before finally settling on what I want exactly. I sketch a lot actually, I mean I have to, it's the only way to find out what works. However, once I DO have that cell of material that works and have laid out what I want to do conceptually, then of course I'm going to be a bit more painstaking in making sure I'm happy with what I'm writing. I agree with you actually, I think you just took an overexageration as my gospel.

When I'm actually writing (and not planning, laying out, etc.) there are plenty of times when I do agonize over every note. If it's important to me, I'll consider it very, very carefully before committing notes to a page. I can tell just by looking at my scores which areas were carefully laid out, and which were barfed onto the score... and I prefer to limit my emetic writing, thankyouverymuch.

That's the point though, right: doing what ever you have to, to get the results you want.

I do a fair bit of improvisation and stuffing around with chord sequences and melodies. To be honest I am pretty terrible at improvisation - 90% of what I come up with sounds like crap to me... but maybe 5% can sometimes be turned into semi-decent phrases, and then I try to piece together those phrases into something resembling a tune. Often I have to try to come up with some rhythmic ideas to go with the chords + melody (I actually find this is more difficult). I record a lot of my improvisations with a sequencer, and as painful as it is to listen to them sometimes (no way I let other people hear them!!), I think it helps you to improve in the long term.

I don't really consider the note when I'm writing for films (aka. my highly regarded work). The melody as a whole is the strength of the piece, and then I have the accompaniment which could be a tremendous quality. Simply I find patterns within real or dream life, something that flows with countermelody, or something interupted. It comes easy to some, not at all to others.

If you're thinking just of the leading note, you're creating a noob work. It's going to systematically sound the same and you won't get any feedback from the other instruments of your arrangement. Rhythm is what really matters. Let counterpoint do its work for you. Quick rhythms are all about polychords. Find your way out of the scale as simple as you can. And don't forget inspiration. It's key to a beginner's future.

You can play a chord out and lay out a motif, but that's noob work.

Conducting on the other hand is almost the opposite thing. You worry about the leading note and expression of orchestral instrumentation. This is when you must take notes from here and there and form a balance in counterpoint without regarding pattern or the consent of actual composition.

I've learned the most about film composition and conducting while colaborating with the John Williams. While my daily studies prove practical, he is the man who puts life into my scores.

Ginger!

I've learned the most about film composition and conducting while colaborating with the John Williams. While my daily studies prove practical, he is the man who puts life into my scores.

I simply cannot bypass this comment, only because it's so BIG, not because of the person whom I'm quoting.

Could you share a few details please? Like how you met him, what you do, etc?

And no, there shouldn't be a hint of sarcasm in my post, it's all genouine interest to find out more. :)