Copyright Advice

Does anybody have good suggestions on how to copyright written music?

I am going to be scoring a full length film soon and even though there probably won't be any money coming from this I still want to be safe.

Let me know what has worked best for you.

:-/

* Copyright exists, in most countries by definition. The minute you come up with the work, it is copyrighted to you. No need to register, or whatever.

* There are different types of copyright. The melody/music copyright (this theme is mine!), the recording copyright (this recording is mine, even if the work (Beethoven for example) is copyright free. In short you can't use any recording, except after permission. And the score copyright (publsihing copyright, etc. Again, some editions of Beethoven are STILL copyirghted, since the editors have put their effort, and their work IS copyrighted!)

* Registration costs a bit of money, and sending an envelope to yourself is not the safest of ways. If you do want a bit of peace of mind, then do register to your country. All countries have some kind of organisation to register.

Now, what is the reason you are afraid of?

1. Someone will use your music as is.

2. Someone will steal your amazing tunes, and ideas.

3. Someone will make money out of your work.

The answers to that:

1. Yes, it can happen, and you can never know really. I'm not particularly worried of that, nor are most members in here, or anywhere. It's hard to learn about it, and if you do know, it's hard to prove it's yours (unless registered and have lots of money for courts). but either way, if you, yourself, could not make the tunes bring you money, at least someone did... (not a great compensation, but still, something to think about).

2. Yes, it happens all the times. Keep in mind: IDEAS ARE NOT COPYRIGHTED! Same goes for chord progressions, drums, etc. And yes the inevitable will happen. Just find a way, not to worry, or develope your own individual voice, so that everything sounds yours. After all zimmer and Williams should be going mad by now, since everyone is copying them, right? ;)

3. Now here is the big issue. What if a hip-hop producer, takes your tracks and make a huge hit out of them (it's not like it's never happened before).

Well... even with registestered tracks, it will be tough to fight back.

Now, from my own experience, chances are that noone wil bother. If you really think that your job is really good and at a pro level (in which case you should've been paid, btw as it makes sense) then just register. It's the most you can do. And keep a low profile, by not giving away the raw music files, but only the full movie, so that people will have a hard time extracting the music.

That's all I can say really...

Great post Nikolas! :thumbsup:

Thanks for the reply Nikolas. That all makes sense. I doubt the movie is going to have any success but on the slim chance it does I would like to receive some of the money it makes. Not giving away the raw files is a good idea as well as not the full track. As long as I have a continuation of anything I wrote I can probably prove its mine.

I think its funny that you can't copyright a musical idea but you can patent the concept of making something already in production better and make money off it.

I actually met John Williams because I'm friends with his grandson. He came and conducted our high school orchestra when we played Africa. You can try to sound like him but in the end his combination of composing and conducting will always be recognized as his. Super nice guy too (not that has anything to with his music).

Musical ideas (eg. a theme) CAN be copyrighted. bare ideas (super idea for writing a new type of symphony for example) can't. Another simpler example: The image of Micky Mouse is copyrighted. But there can be zillions of walking on two feet, talking like human, mice. The idea of a human-oid mice is NOT copyrighted.

It's good to know that Williams is a nice guy. :) I do like his music, more than most film composers, and it is dead obvious that he knows music (as opposed to Zimmer, for example), so tell him that, next time you see him :D

In responce to Nikolas' response and statements, does anybody know where specifically it can be found in actual documentation that once you've created something privately it is automatically copyrighted? And what protection does that law (?) give? If you need to actually register the work and pay the money to get any authentic protection even if little, then that statement that says that privately created material is automatically subject to copyright isn't worth anything if you can't prove the work is your own. That would go for anything, too, not just music. Does it really offer any kind of protection?

It depends on the country. It's not the law itself, but Copyright - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia will help a bit.

Check on google for "copyright *your country (usa?)*" and you will definately find your registration service.

Do not confuse the law, with the implications of being illegal, and the enforcement of the law.

This applies to everything in life. If things were that simple, there wouldn't be any police. But things are not that simple, and police needs to be there, at every instant.

Same with copyright. Law goes that blah blah. But the more you do to protect your self the better. One of the things you can use, are actual people who could testify. I mean, if someone comes to me and tells me anything about my works, I have my notes, all you people, dates, internet, my college, concert dates, performers, etc. But then again I cannot be 100% sure.

Things get stolen all the time, even from famous people, so if it is bound to happen it means that your tracks are simply great, and there's little to do to stop it. I mean, if by any change I take it and use it, how on earth will you know? There are millions of tracks out there, how many do you listen each day? ;)

It's good to know that Williams is a nice guy. :) I do like his music, more than most film composers, and it is dead obvious that he knows music (as opposed to Zimmer, for example), so tell him that, next time you see him :D

I doubt I'll ever see him again (unless I become a famous composer before he dies) but if I do, I'll tell him that.

I guess it could be taken as a compliment if your music is stolen because that means it must have been good enough to be worthy of stealing.

this is a particular situation where Waxy is asking about scoring for a film.

I got royally screwed over working for film a while back, and I you do need to be careful and get everything in writing from the producers.

1. are they paying you to compose the music
   
2. are they paying you to perform the music
   
3. are they giving you any moneys in regards to orchestral parts/materials for that recording?
   
4. are they paying for the recording studio?
   
5. is there any chance this film will make it to DVD?
   

You need, IN WRITING, from the producers, a guarantee of some sort that when moneys are offered for extended use (ie: DVD release), whether or not you are compensated for it, or whether your permission is needed/asked for.

MANY, if not most, film makers/producers, ASSUME that when they commission a composer to write the music to THEIR film, they are in fact BUYING the music and that it then on belongs to THEM and they may do with it as they please.

A serious word of warning: there may be "no money right now" to pay you for the music, but trust me, this film maker is going to work his donkey off to MAKE some money off his film, and money WILL be coming in at some point if he does his job. YOU need to get a written guarantee that SOME of that will come back to you in SOME form.

OH!! AND register your music with either BMI or ASCAP. You need to get the director/producer's signatures and relevant information on the forms (I presume it's more or less the same form as we use here for SOCAN). You need to list EACH and EVERY track in the score, used in the film, find a short name for each track, its length, and its orchestration. You should be getting money from BMI/ASCAP every time the film plays in a public venue (cinema) or on television. It's not much, but still.

I got screwed over by a film maker who ":sadtears: waahhh, had no money" when they made the film. I was too nice, I wrote the music for next to nothing. Then he got a HUGE contract to do his next film, and included the previous film as an "extra" on the DVD... for which I got absolutely nothing.

Remember, a movie might not make it NOW, but it COULD one day become a hit on DVD or even as a revival.

Don't "demand money", but DO demand that they fill out the requisite forms for BMI/ASCAP. THAT is money (present and future) that you are owed.

As for DVD sales, if you registered your music with BMI/ASCAP then you are also owed money for "mechanical reproduction rights". So every DVD that gets made gets you a few pennies.

If you enter into a contract with someone, just make sure you read the contract very carefully before signing. If you compose a piece of music for someone else, and the contract specifically states that you sign away your rights, you obviously will have no case if whoever sells your music makes money and gives you no part of it. If however, the contract states they will give you x percentage of the cut, and they failed to do this, you have a valid case, and can take this to court.

I can relate this to the work I want done with Young Composers. Whoever designs the work for me, I will state in the contract that I will pay a fee, but in return, he forfeits the rights to his work. This means he cannot sell this commercially, and technically, I could sell the software commercially. I want to do this to protect YC as to keep it unique. If my coder sells his work commercially, I can take it to court and win the case, because the contract states what we both agreed on. However, this is easier said than done. I would probably need a good lawyer and money to win. You need to prove that the contract is valid. If he denies everything in the contract, thats where getting a good lawyer comes into play.

If you are worried about someone stealing your work on this site, just remember that you still own the rights to the work regardless. You can still go out and sell your work, and make money. No one can take that from you. But if you are truly a good composer, you should be happy just knowing that no one else can compose like you. If your work is unique enough, you have absolutely nothing to worry about because even if your ideas were stolen, the quality of your work cannot be replicated. No one can replicate the works of Rachmaninoff, come on. If however you are a beginner composer, you probably are in the learning phase, and you most likely will sound generic anyway. First of all, if this is the case, no one would want to steal your music, and second of all, if they do steal your music, they just stole something that they most likely could not make money off of anyway. And even if they do make a few bucks from the music, with a copyright, that doesn't mean this will automatically stop them from selling your music.

My point is, if you really are a very good composer and you are unique enough, you should not worry about anyone stealing your music. No one can replicate your next piece. If you are a beginning composer, you also have nothing to worry about. No one would want to steal your music. However, the real truth is, whether a piece is brilliant or not, a regular person will not even know how to sell your music for profit successfully anyway. You really would have to worry about the big publishers doing this. And the last time I checked, we WANT the big publishers to distribute our music! These guys won't steal someone's work because they want to keep their reputation of course.

I'm sorry that happened to you Qccowboy. That filmaker didn't even hire you back on for his next film?

I'm not getting any money to compose, perform or anything. However, there is a good chance it will be submitted to some film festivals. So I will make sure to look into getting my music registered.

Thanks for the advice.

Thank you people, I am finding this topic very resourceful.

I'm sorry that happened to you Qccowboy. That filmaker didn't even hire you back on for his next film?

actually, yes, he had "promised" me that I was to do this next film since it was big budget, horror (which I love), and that he ahd been satisfied with my musci on all the films I had done for him so far (which had ALL been for next to no money).

And his excuse for not taking me was that "the studio wanted someone else".

So don't worry, film makers have ways of weasling out of commitments like the money-grubbing, back-stabbing, two-faced rodents they are.

And his excuse for not taking me was that "the studio wanted someone else".

Wow...no loyalty huh? That does seem like a poor excuse. I'm going to be as safe as possible when I do this film but I hope something like that wouldn't happen considering the film maker and I are friends.

So I guess the best thing to do would be to register my pieces as they get finished according to the film and then just make sure the film maker agrees and signs a contract to preserve ownership. I might end up doing more then just composing like mixing and mastering the audio so I definitely need to make sure I get my dues if anything becomes of this film.