2 or 3 staves for solo piano?

I'm working on a solo piano piece.

Of course the norm is 2 staves, and for more contemporary and complex stuff 3 staves.

But if 5 voice Bach fugues can go into 2 staves, I can't really see anything THAT much impossible to go onto 2...

So, what do you prefer? Keeping in mind that we are talking about pretty contemporary stuff, and rather complex, but not utterly?

I prefer to keep to as few staves as possible whenever possible; in short, I am wary of and do not like the superfluous.

That said, many techniques, and many pieces do call for legitimate use of 3 or more staves, but I absolutely HATE when people deliberately make their music just that bit more awkward just so they can have 3 staves.

So I think it's fine, when required, but I would not suggest having it for a whole piece, unless that piece already in your mind is built on some piano technique that needs 3 staves.

I use more than 2 staves only when absolutely necessary for clarity's sake.

Remember, notation is ALL about clarity.

I use three staves when I have too many things going on around the same notes. That way I can write the same thing, but people will be able to understand it. You have to remember where this originated though - people originally did this to make clean handwritten parts that weren't all blobby messes of paper and ink. So basically ditto to QC.

I've never heard of using three staves for piano. I could understand for organ using a third staff for the foot pedals but I don't know why you would use three staves for piano. As far as I know we only have two hands. Maybe its an indication for a second keyboard? I've seen an acoustic piano with two keyboards. I'm assuming the reason for that is if you are playing a piece with many close together notes and you want them to come out more. Can someone explain this to me?

I've never heard of using three staves for piano. I could understand for organ using a third staff for the foot pedals but I don't know why you would use three staves for piano. As far as I know we only have two hands. Maybe its an indication for a second keyboard? I've seen an acoustic piano with two keyboards. I'm assuming the reason for that is if you are playing a piece with many close together notes and you want them to come out more. Can someone explain this to me?

maybe you just don't know enough of the repertoire.

there is piano music notated on four staves, and that's for a single player (a famous Rachmaninov prelude, for example).

about 90% of the 2nd book of piano preludes of Debussy is notated on three staves.

just in case you didn't know, the staves are not absolutes as far as "upper staff = right hand, lower staff = left hand".

so, no, writing on more than two staves is not an indication to play on more than one keyboard. It's a way of keeping very busy material clearly notated. Most simple piano writing can be easily dealt with on two staves, but a lot of more complex material really does require the use of a median staff.

If you want to see a few examples of piano music written on 3 staves, just examine the piano part of my piano concerto in the MW forum. I believe the version for 2 pianos (orchestra reduction) is posted there.

I've used three staves in rapid arpeggiated patterns, instead of writing and rewritting clefs over and over again. Say left hand in this case has a simple melodie somewhere around middle C, relatively slow, and the right hand has maybe a wide arpeggio that spans from E3 to A6. Or maybe left hand melody and the right hand does a rapid plink in the high registar and a resounding plonk on the low end. Have the high end on a treble staff, and the low end on a bass stave, with the left hand melody alone in whatever clef suits it best. That's how -I've- used three staves in the past.

And LoL, that Rachmoninov Prelude, the C# minor, when I was still early in learning piano, I didn't realize it was four staves, I thought that they were two seperate lines/systems of music. No wonder it never sounded right or I couldn't follow the music to a recording without getting lost. :w00t: Then I started seeing three stave piano writing, and the idea of four staves clicked and now the prelude makes sense to me. That music to it eluded me for so long, though. I had no idea what to make of it.

so, no, writing on more than two staves is not an indication to play on more than one keyboard. It's a way of keeping very busy material clearly notated. Most simple piano writing can be easily dealt with on two staves, but a lot of more complex material really does require the use of a median staff.

Thanks, I think I understand. I don't play piano and have never had the opportunity to dive into that kind of repertoire. So would you use a tenor staff as a third staff so transitions between the treble and bass clef are smoother? Would you use two treble staves to make notation less muddy? If I understand this makes notation easier but might make some extra work for the pianist when reading the music.

I've never seen extra staves use anything but treble and bass. There's a famous piece by Sorabji that's around 3-4 hours long that's almost entirely written on four staves: Opus Clave-something-or-other-tabum.

It's a monster.

Rach used 4 staves. So why not you? As long as the notation's clear.

Thanks, I think I understand. I don't play piano and have never had the opportunity to dive into that kind of repertoire. So would you use a tenor staff as a third staff so transitions between the treble and bass clef are smoother? Would you use two treble staves to make notation less muddy? If I understand this makes notation easier but might make some extra work for the pianist when reading the music.

no, tenor clef is only used by cellists, bassoonists, and trombonists.

never write anything for piano with anything other than a treble or bass clef. Pianists are used to reading multiple ledger lines.

generally, the median staff is the staff that ends up doing multiple clef changes from bass to treble and back, which allows for a great deal of fluidity.

My suggestion is to ask someone with facility at the piano to examine your score and let you know if it really does require extra staves or not. The times I've used them have been where keeping it on two staves would have required multiple clef changes per measure, and where the counterpoint of the material was too confusing when lines crossed within the same staff.

Again, that key word: clarity.

Qc already mentioned the key word. Nikolas, I would say that you could notate is however you want, as long as it is clear for the performer :)

I hope you include in clarity the possibility of multiple textures sounding simultaneously. I think it is better to use multiple staves when your music is multistratal. But then again i'd encourage you to listen to the people who get their stuff played more. ;)

And don't forget -- Herma by Iannis Xenakis did get played and recorded eventually. ;D

Personally, as a piano player, I'm not fond of playing on multiple staves. I actually find it hard to read even though things can get messy on just two. I would recommend to write it on two first and if it really is illegible put it on three.

Also, does anyone here know that Liszt actually wrote an etude for piano on just one staff? It looks really weird. It's from the Grandes Etudes de Paginini I believe, although I may be mistaken.

I think it's usually easier to have 3 staves. Especially when there's some sort of pattern that you wouldn't have seen if the two staves had been combined (eg - if there's a descending line that you wouldn't have seen had the staves been mashed together). Also, when Prokofiev just decides to go to three staves for a little ping somewhere ... I could go either way on that, but it's easy to see that it's coming up when you haven't really practiced the music.

Don't use three staves, or this will happen!

That's a second year piano piece, right?

;)

LOL nice joke right? The "Original copy" was posted in my band classrom in 8th grade looking it was like 30 years old ripped a bit, with many creases... and non-repertoire students would be stunned and say "how do you play that?", I chuckled and replied "Oh its a university piece for advanced students", some classmates asked "Reeeeally?, it looks impossible to play". I was annoyed at their weak sarcasm. Anyways...

There was also something similar to that but with a different title and harder notations such as 4 staves, and non-musical notation and reversed beams, etc... you name it.

Funny Stuff. Great memories in high scool.

I've seen Ginastera's piano sonatas and in one of them he uses 4 staves, that's really difficult to read...

I think it really depends on what is actually going on in the different voices you have sounding. Messiaen tends to go to three staves when the main melodic voice is in the middle of the texture, which makes it easier to see what notes to bring out and sustain. Similarly I've seen pieces (by Takemitsu) for example where he uses additional staves for one bar only to indicate a chord played in the background (while other notes are still sustained), as an aside or echo effect. And as QC keeps reiterating, this makes the composer's intentions clearer, and in my opinion it's a lot easier to read than cramming the two staffs full, especially when you have to fit three voices on one stave (and only one of them is meant to be heard marcato).

There would be no real advantage to doing this in Bach for the same reason, particularly in his fugues, where (apart from in the episodes perhaps where the texture changes), the parts are considered to be equal - and there's no reason that he would have expected one to be brought out above the others because it would have been impossible on the harpsichord (or organ).

I personally thing that Rachmaninov is a bit gratuitous with the stave use in the C# minor prelude, there's not really that much going on in the music when it happens - and he does a very similar thing on the second page of the b minor prelude and gets away with just 2...