Double Stops - strings???

Hey everybody.

I just found this forum through google (I guess I am the only Dane around here?), and it seems like the place to ask questions about double stops.

I need to finish a pice in two weeks for a String Quintet, and I really need to find out how I can "make up" my own double stops. My dear orchestration book by Adler only shows partial lists, and as I'm certainly not a string-player, I have absolutely no idea whether the things I write are playable.

How do you guys reason when you write double stops for strings?

thanks

Mathias

Never write any interval in a chord larger than an octave. And if there are three notes, make sure the difference between the lowest and the highest is no bigger than an octave and a fifth.

"Make up" your own double stops? Easy! Learn to play a stringed instrument! :P Or ask here, or your local, friendly (not so) string player.

Anyway, it's not that hellishly difficult, once you understand the tuning of the instrument and the positions.

is that universal? (referring to Kievins reply?)

manosgg - when I have the time, I'll certainly start playing ;). But right now I'm in a haste. In 2 minutes I'll take the liberty to post some of the double stops I plan on using. Perhaps one of you would take a look at them? :)

Klevins...that's not quite it.

I can't quite think of a way in which it isn't quite it, unless, of course, you are referring to the double bass. Which string instruments are you writing for? I am most familiar with the cello...

I am a cellist, but it doesn't have to do with the instrument so much, as with using open strings, for example.

No. I'm thinking more of the intervals between strings on a bass being 4ths.

One should be able to play double stop octaves without open strings, if you used the thumb (something I have a phobia of doing. Well, I hate it anyway.).

Just make sure the range of a chord isn't ridiculously high.

2 notes in chord - no more than an octave.

3 notes - an octave and a half

4 notes - no more than 2 octaves.

Try not to have any intervals of 2nds or 3rds in chords of more than 2 notes.

It's quite complicated to explain, really.

OK. Before you criticize me to death, I need to tell that I am transcribing a piece for full string orchestra (with divisi) to a little Quintet (which obviously doesn't have more than 2 hands - or so I hope)

I've marked the multi stops with red and blue. Blue - the ones I truly hope i will be able to use, and red, the ones which I truly hope I will be able to use :whistling:- but which seem quite unplayable (for a non string-guy).

I hope I am wrong.

Would you take a look:thumbsup:.

This is NOT the entire piece if you wonder hehe

Mathias

I hope I am wrong.

But why? :P

Looks alright, certainly possible to play, although if it was me I would whine a bit! But hey, I enjoy making other people suffer.

Not sure about octaves on double bass, though.

klevins, I constantly find that such guidelines constantly lead people to messing up or missing wonderful compositional opportunities.

kadowser:

I'm busy right now, so I'll check these out later in detail. For now, write the viola in the alto clef, find an octopus for a cellist for the g-g double stop and rest assured that all the other doubles on the first 6 measures are perfectly playable! (although the cello one in m.5 is quite tricky)

klevins, I constantly find that such guidelines constantly lead people to messing up or missing wonderful compositional opportunities.

Probably. I'm rubbish at explaining things to people, especially over the internet.

Thanks for taking a look

The players are from the Royal Danish Chappel, so I believe they're born to suffer :D. Unfortunately they only have 10 minutes to practice each piece, so do you really think they will be able to nail the 16th-note-run in "bar" B2 in the first/second take?

klevins, I constantly find that such guidelines constantly lead people to messing up or missing wonderful compositional opportunities.

kadowser:

I'm busy right now, so I'll check these out later in detail. For now, write the viola in the alto clef, find an octopus for a cellist for the g-g double stop and rest assured that all the other doubles on the first 6 measures are perfectly playable! (although the cello one in m.5 is quite tricky)

Thank you very much.

It's just the last two chords which are tricky. It should be possible, especially if they are good.

Good composition by the way.

It's just the last two chords which are tricky. It should be possible, especially if they are good.

Good composition by the way.

Thanks - although 4 bars don't say much I guess:).

Although still a sketch, I have the piece in sibelius and a MIDImockup on my server.

http://www.mmmusic.dk/Ny stryg.mp3

http://www.mmmusic.dk/String Hyldgaard Kvintet.sib

As I've been taught lately: NEVER ask for double bass double-stops, unless the lower note is on an open string. ALL of the double bass double-stops in your piece need to be played divisi, so if you're writing for a quintet, you'll have to omit notes.

Looking at the rest:

Viola part, section A: all quite playable, though the A/D in A3 is slightly awkward.

Cello part, section A: I should probably leave this to a cellist, but in general... while each of the individual double-stops is playable, going from the octave to the 5th in A3 is difficult, because the octave would have to be played with the thumb, and there would have to be a shift for the 5th. You're pretty much asking for intonation problems there. Also, as a general rule of thumb, perfect 5th double-stops in strings are not encouraged, because they are too easy to play out of tune. At A5, why not give the upper line to the viola?

Section B, Violin I: I hope you're not asking for a triple-stop to start B4, because moving to F#/A requires a virtually impossible finger extension if the C above is being sustained. Even omitting the C, it requires virtuoso technique.

Section B, Violin II: Not comfortable, but a decent violinist should be able to handle it.

Section B, Viola: Very difficult to play in tempo, because the violist will have to play in 3rd position on the G string in B3-4, and in B5, the 16th note double-stops require moving the second finger back and forth a half-step. I'd seriously hesitate to give this part to even a virtuoso.

Section B, Cello: B2 looks virtually unplayable.

Please note all the doubling in B5 - the 2nd violin is doubled by both the lower line of the 1st violin part, the upper line of the viola part, and the upper line of the cello part an octave below. Also, the lower lines for viola and cello double the upper 1st violin line at octaves. This texture can easily be trimmed without losing any real material. In general, you should be looking to reduce some of the doubling in the score rather than calling for extremely difficult double-stops.

As I've been taught lately: NEVER ask for double bass double-stops, unless the lower note is on an open string. ALL of the double bass double-stops in your piece need to be played divisi, so if you're writing for a quintet, you'll have to omit notes.

Looking at the rest:

Viola part, section A: all quite playable, though the A/D in A3 is slightly awkward.

Cello part, section A: I should probably leave this to a cellist, but in general... while each of the individual double-stops is playable, going from the octave to the 5th in A3 is difficult, because the octave would have to be played with the thumb, and there would have to be a shift for the 5th. You're pretty much asking for intonation problems there. Also, as a general rule of thumb, perfect 5th double-stops in strings are not encouraged, because they are too easy to play out of tune. At A5, why not give the upper line to the viola?

Section B, Violin I: I hope you're not asking for a triple-stop to start B4, because moving to F#/A requires a virtually impossible finger extension if the C above is being sustained. Even omitting the C, it requires virtuoso technique.

Section B, Violin II: Not comfortable, but a decent violinist should be able to handle it.

Section B, Viola: Very difficult to play in tempo, because the violist will have to play in 3rd position on the G string in B3-4, and in B5, the 16th note double-stops require moving the second finger back and forth a half-step. I'd seriously hesitate to give this part to even a virtuoso.

Section B, Cello: B2 looks virtually unplayable.

Please note all the doubling in B5 - the 2nd violin is doubled by both the lower line of the 1st violin part, the upper line of the viola part, and the upper line of the cello part an octave below. Also, the lower lines for viola and cello double the upper 1st violin line at octaves. This texture can easily be trimmed without losing any real material. In general, you should be looking to reduce some of the doubling in the score rather than calling for extremely difficult double-stops.

Thanks for the very in-depth proof-reading. I think you're right, that I should try to trim my the piece. I'll take all your thoughts into consideration. You guys are great.