Hans Zimmer

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! can you honestly say, hand on heart, the score for gladiator doesn't fit perfectly?!?! :O:O:O:O

It may fit but I suspect(feel free to correct me here QCC) that he's referring to the fact that it's very, how should I put this... vanilla.

It's just really plain. Sure it fits and works very well the way it is. But music can be more than just epic battle cues and brooding tension cues.

Let me make this clear, this is my opinion, and nothing more.

While I may be a professional musician, I AM still allowed to have opinions which are my own.

Thus:

What I personally don't care for of Zimmer's music is that I find it bland. To me, it has no personality. He skips from one imitation to another without a second thought. None of the music seems to actually FIT together. There is no organic sense of a "whole" in his scores. It's OK as background music for a film. More often than not, I won't even notice it. It does nothing but fill in background noise.

Let me give you an example of a score that in my opinion functions in exactly the opposite way. That for the film Signs, by James Newton Howard. Here the composer has created a very tense and tightly constructed score with a minimum of material. Yes, it IS a bit repetitive if you listen to the OST recording, however, within the film, it follows every contour of the film, it hugs the curves, it pushes you into your seat, it pulls you forward onto the edge of your seat... it does everything a character in a film should do. And at certain moments, it swells up just a tiny bit and takes on the lead role in the film, coming to the forefront as a truly independant character, yet still so integral to the action in the movie.

OK, so I admit I'm biased. I love both the film and its score. But my analysis of the score is spot on. I spent enough years studying film and cinematography and working in the field (I have a film project in the works with my husband for an upcoming opera), that I think my judgement on the issue - personal bias aside - can be relatively solid.

QCC- I have to agree, Signs is an excellent film and score. I think The Village is even better score-wise. The emotion, mystery and tension Howard builds in this score is truly beautiful and amazing.

I realized I didn't know how much work Zimmer has done, and some of the movies I remember liking the scores quite a bit. Here are some of my highlights:

Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest (2006)

The Da Vinci Code (2006)

Batman Begins (2005)

Madagascar (2005)

Spanglish (2004)

Pearl Harbor (2001)

Gladiator (2000)

The Prince of Egypt (1998)

As Good as It Gets (1997)

Crimson Tide (1995)

The Lion King (1994)

A League of Their Own (1992)

Regarding Henry (1991)

Rain Man (1988)

Paperhouse (1988)

Sure, not every film on here was a blockbuster or completely changed the way film scoring is done, but that can be expected from any composer's catalog. I think what is happening here is different composers identify and enjoy different other composers. For example, QCC really seems to dig James Newton Howard and there isn't anything wrong with that! I have almost every score and DVD from M. Night's and Howard's collaboration. It is great, solid stuff! However, some people might feel other scores and other films are just as good, if not better.

Better example: I don't like much of James Horner's stuff, but I still respect what he has been able to do and do enjoy a portion of his work. I don't sum him up as "meh" or "he sucks" just because he has scored a few movies that I didn't care for. That would be zeroing in on one or a few things I didn't like and ignoring all of the international acclaim and recognition he has received for his work.

I listed some of Zimmer's earlier work because:

1) I was surprised by the amount of work he has done, and didn't realize some of the films he had worked on. I hadn't done any research into his credits until this thread.

2) To broaden the argument against Zimmer beyond just Gladiator. We all understand and acknowledge that some of you don't like the score to Gladiator. What about Crimson Tide? That was a fantastic film, I saw it on TNT not too long ago. From what I remember, the score was well done and fitting. What about The Prince of Egypt? It was nominated for an Oscar for best music in 1999. I remember hearing how great the music was in that film, but I must be honest...it has been years since I've seen it.

I know I'm coming off as a Zimmer fan boy, but trust me, I'm not. I'm just surprised to see people saying that he is a bad composer and his music is bland, lacks personality and that the fact he has found so much work means squat. What about the awards he has won or been nominated for? Take the entire package into consideration, THEN make your judgment.

I write music professionally for visual media for a living, have two degrees in music and have worked on over 100 projects. I've studied film scoring, composition and music theory at the undergraduate and graduate levels. My music has been featured in video games, websites, DVDs, commercials, TV and I can honestly say that some of Zimmer's work is fantastic and some of it isn't. This is my opinion, and I got it back looking at all of his works instead of focusing in on one, two or three films that I felt weren't up to snuff. I'm sure we've all written a few pieces that were not shining examples of our talent and skill level. No, wait. I know we all have.

Finally, some are making judgments against Zimmer while not having any true industry experience or knowledge. Have you ever consider that perhaps a producer requested a film's score be "such and such" or sound like "this and that"? It happens all of the time. I see it in my professional life all of the time- we'll have a brand manager that has a certain feel or idea for a project and the artist or me (composer) will have a slightly different take. What happens then? Do we butt heads the entire time and get nowhere? Of course not. We all want to keep our jobs and get the client happy. So, we compromise and make it happen. Sometimes this means I have to write music in a style that I feel doesn't fully fit the project, but remember teams are never one man shows. It takes large crews to make large projects take shape.

Another thing to consider is budget and time constraints. I've seen it happen where the music has a smaller budget than the rest of the project and perhaps even less time to make everything come together. For example at my job sometimes it takes the producer and the artists several takes to get the visuals and pacing just right. The whole time, the clock is ticking and I cannot have a final score until I have a final cut of the visuals. What happens when the visuals take a long time? I have to work SUPER fast to get a score done by the deadline or the entire project gets delayed and the client isn't happy. All of these things, and more factor into the job of writing the music. I'm not making excuses for composers in this situation, I'm simply trying to explain the climate in which we have to work. Don't forget, it is SO easy to play Monday morning quarterback, but so completely different to be in the game. I feel like some are too quick to judge without really knowing what goes into the film score process. honestly. I don't know everything that goes into the film scoring process, but I know quite a bit.

So my main point: Cut the guy some slack. Look at his entire body of work and then make your choice. I'll respect that a great deal more than just pointing out a few misses here and there.

Sorry man... I just don't get goosepimples from his music. I can't change that. It's biological or something.

If it doesn't turn you on, it doesn't turn you on. :) My main point was to consider all of the factors. I can respect opinions, but would rather people not just equate a person's entire work to one word or attitude.

As I've stated before, Zimmer's work doesn't totally rock my boat either. I'd just hope people would consider all of the factors. After all, it is my goal and dream to be one of the hollywood composers and I certainly hope others would factor in everything when considering me and my work. Wouldn't you? :)

I would factor in what I heard and whether or not it captured me. I guess film isn't a fair place to experience a composer's music.

They're writing to someone else's specs after all...

Let me make this clear, this is my opinion, and nothing more.

While I may be a professional musician, I AM still allowed to have opinions which are my own.

Thus:

What I personally don't care for of Zimmer's music is that I find it bland. To me, it has no personality. He skips from one imitation to another without a second thought. None of the music seems to actually FIT together. There is no organic sense of a "whole" in his scores. It's OK as background music for a film. More often than not, I won't even notice it. It does nothing but fill in background noise.

Let me give you an example of a score that in my opinion functions in exactly the opposite way. That for the film Signs, by James Newton Howard. Here the composer has created a very tense and tightly constructed score with a minimum of material. Yes, it IS a bit repetitive if you listen to the OST recording, however, within the film, it follows every contour of the film, it hugs the curves, it pushes you into your seat, it pulls you forward onto the edge of your seat... it does everything a character in a film should do. And at certain moments, it swells up just a tiny bit and takes on the lead role in the film, coming to the forefront as a truly independant character, yet still so integral to the action in the movie.

OK, so I admit I'm biased. I love both the film and its score. But my analysis of the score is spot on. I spent enough years studying film and cinematography and working in the field (I have a film project in the works with my husband for an upcoming opera), that I think my judgement on the issue - personal bias aside - can be relatively solid.

no no no!! i wasn't saying you were wrong, sorry i do come off as agressive sometimes, and i don't mean to, i was only trying to assert if thats what you actually thought.. ok looking at my post now yeh, it is atad over dramatic, sorry about that :P

lol i must say i am quite suprised that i'm the only person here who likes his music :P

Do you really like his music? The music, alone, I mean. Do you have a few soundtracks and you put them for your listening pleasure, or you think that it works great in films (which it does, really it does). I just can't see his music working outside the films, that's all for me. :)

I really like some of the music on The Da Vinci Code soundtrack. Haven't heard a lot of the other Zimmer scores though...

Do you really like his music? The music, alone, I mean. Do you have a few soundtracks and you put them for your listening pleasure, or you think that it works great in films (which it does, really it does). I just can't see his music working outside the films, that's all for me. :)

yes i do, i listen to it regularily :P

i also listen to the lord of the rings soundtrack and some pieces from star wars (the obvious ones; the imperial march, dual of the fates, etc)

I really like some of the music on The Da Vinci Code soundtrack. Haven't heard a lot of the other Zimmer scores though...

The Lion King? Pirates of the Carribean? Gladiator? ....:P theres a LOT of them

I loved the score to The Ring and thought the main motive was quite beautiful and haunting. Plus you can hear a few seconds of it and know exactly what movie it is from. I haven't seen the movie in quite some time and do not have the soundtrack- and yet I can hum the theme right now. That is a good sign of the music having personality.

And to Nikolas' response about if he really likes Zimmer's music: Some people like country music! LOL I don't but some do. Different people like different things. I would imagine there would be a decent percentage of people that wouldn't like your two variation pieces I checked out the other day. Why? Could be all kinds of reasons: they don't have a classical music background, it isn't pop-ish enough, they're used to a different culture's music. I actually enjoyed the music quite a bit, but I'm just trying to show that different people like different things and it shouldn't really surprise people so much.

Oh and Ljoekelsoey, I don't really count Pirates of the Carribean because Klaus Badelt wrote the score to the first movie and then Zimmer came in and did the 2nd and 3rd one. Sure he did a decent job, but he had to work with the main melodies set up by the first film, and the other composer. But you are right, there are a ton of movies that he has worked on, and many of them had good scores.

Oh and one more thing might be happening here: When someone really likes a movie, they can listen to a film's score and replay the movie in their mind. This is especially true if they really know both the film and music well. I would do this when jogging and listening to a soundtrack.

Also, I would make up my own scenes or situations while listening to the soundtracks. So, this could explain why some people don't respond well to certain soundtracks (and/or movies), and others do.

Seriously, I like Klaus Badelt better. He's the one who actually wrote the 1st pirates score, and he's the one who COMPOSED THE MELODY (which is obviously, duh, composing the music). Hans was basically responsible for making it sound more crappy in number 2 and 3. And he did a wonderful job. (ok yes the melody is different in 2 and 3, but Klaus's stuff is more classic sounding and not therefore better, but just better than Zimmer's version anyway.)

And Badelt also did the Time Machine soundtrack. I recommend the simple melody of The Time Machine to people too. Some say it's cheesy. I like it, though repreating, it's rich. And it work's probably as one of the best movie melodies to get stuck in your head, as well as pirates.

Oh Nathan talks about Klaus too. Good job! you know him too! I'm not priasing Badelt too highly here, I'm just saying it's pretty good/alright music.

Typically for movie music, I look for composers who make the movie awesome. Obviously John Williams does that greatly through his Liemotiff. Jerry Goldsmith dug into the heart of the movie rather than John Williams digging into the soul and somewhat annoying melodies sometimes, but of course Williams had great melodies that were copies of his other ones. He does copy Tchaikovsky and man who else.... tons of people? But yea, he does a good job at it. I recommend Goldsmith and Williams for very up to date movie scores.

Other people praise Glass or Thomas Newman more than my choices, but I say, it's all about the melody. Making one that doesn't suck is genius. (aka. Rachmaninoff, Gershwin, Mozart, Tchiakovsky) these are great influences on the film music industry. Mozart more than others, word.

The Lion King? Pirates of the Carribean? Gladiator? ....:P theres a LOT of them

Gotta love the Lion King... Hakuna bloody mattata or whatever! :D

Have seen Gladiator but can't remember the soundtrack, although I have heard good things about it.

Seriously, I like Klaus Badelt better. He's the one who actually wrote the 1st pirates score, and he's the one who COMPOSED THE MELODY

just pure coincidence that the battle them in gladiator is almost exactlyt the same as the pirates theme? :P (im implying Badelt may havae copied Zimmer in this case :D)

Wow copying is bad then huh. :(

I should just burn in Hell.

Yes indeed.

Not too many Zimmer lovers here I see.

Zimmer was behind the first Pirates of Carribean if most of you don't know. It was mentioned in an interview that many Remote Control (studio/company started by Zimmer after someone decided to ruin Media Ventures for money) artists worked on it behind Klaus but willingly did not want to be credited. And in case most of you don't know Klaus works in Zimmer's studio. Didn't you think it's awkward that Zimmer did the second and third one even though Klaus was so successful in the first one? I mean if I'm the movie producer, I would want Klaus back. So it's not so much of a surprise Pirates sounded similar to Gladiator.

Anyway, just to put my 2 cents in, many people love Zimmer because of the fact that he's both a producer and composer. Which separates him from people like John Williams, Ennio Moricone, and Jerry Goldsmith, etc... These classics have some (with all due respect to them) "unknown" producers working on some finishing touches (not the music itself) before handing it in.

I don't see anything wrong with being a self-taught artist. And I don't quite think Zimmer was entirely self-taught. I read his biography somewhere. I can understand how some people use "self-taught" in their defence to probably up their status. But I also hate it when people use "Don't talk to me about.... because I'm classically trained" in an argument.

Anyway, just to put my 2 cents in, many people love Zimmer because of the fact that he's both a producer and composer. Which separates him from people like John Williams, Ennio Moricone, and Jerry Goldsmith, etc... These classics have some (with all due respect to them) "unknown" producers working on some finishing touches (not the music itself) before handing it in.

Are you saying that Zimmer is the engineer and mixer behind his orchestral tracks? Or that he also adds certain stuff afterwards? Because I honestly doubt he deals with mics, and engineering stuff in the recording... But maybe, I simply don't know.

I don't see anything wrong with being a self-taught artist. And I don't quite think Zimmer was entirely self-taught. I read his biography somewhere. I can understand how some people use "self-taught" in their defence to probably up their status. But I also hate it when people use "Don't talk to me about.... because I'm classically trained" in an argument.

No, see that would be called an engineer or technician, not a producer. Producer as in he understands audio engineer on a sampling level. He designs his own synthesizers. He does mixing and mastering himself. He processes the audio himself. He hires engineers and technicians to construct his hardwares like microphones and synthesizers, and they work with the hardwares. He doesn't need a synthesizer artist to add in the retro effects to an orchestra.

Well, for the second point. It's just that many people seems to use that as a way to defend an argument. But that doesn't really prove much. Why would anyone ever use that as an argument? How about get to the point, say why the argument is correct/incorrect based on valuable facts... not whether or not one is professionally trained.

I agree with Kaiyoti AND I'm professionally trained. :) My thoughts are this: If a composer, who is completely self taught can make terrific music then that person is VERY talented and has a gift. That person is also very lucky to possess such natural God-given (in my mind) talent.

For those out there that want to simply bash on a self-taught composer who can make high quality music, what is your point? Is your point that you put more time and effort into learning your craft (regardless how good your music is or isn't) and therefore we should all ignore those that were self taught? Why even bring it up? If the music is solid and good, then who cares?! It just shows a great deal of natural ability.

Sure, it can be intimidating to face a person who can perform on a level equal to or greater than your own, but that is life! It is even more intimidating when that skill or talent is completely untaught and natural. Not everyone can be Mozart, Michael Jordan, Shakespear or Steven Spielberg! (For the record I just threw out names that popped into my head. I don't want to spark another debate about who is and who isn't talented from my list.) My point is if you are not one of those lucky few, then work your butt off and always strive to become better. If you are one of those lucky few, work your butt off as well to become even better than you already are. But to sit around and moan about who is or isn't professionally trained seems like a waste of time....at least to me. ;)

To put it very bluntly: I've heard the whole "I'm professionally trained" argument from composers in the past and the truth of the matter is some of their music wasn't all that. I was more impressed and entertained by the composer who was self taught. I can also use the same argument since I have a masters degree in music and have studied since I was 5 and I'm often speaking in support of the untrained composer. I wish people would stop focusing on what education the composer has or doesn't have and start focusing on the major factor: the music!

Simple equation: If the music sucks, then the composer isn't very good. If the music rocks, then the composer is good. The problem lies in good and bad are subjective terms and EVERYONE and their dog has an opinion. So...I guess I haven't solved much at all then.

Focusing on the music, my opinion is 'meh'.

Why doesn't anybody discuss other self-taught composers who make beautiful music (Zbigniw Preisner, for example)?

Hem, I just want to mention something, in case Kayioty and Nate are aiming at me or something.

I don't like people using their self taught status to up themselves, ok? Other than that, I personally don't give a scraggy about Zimmer really, I just don't really fancy his music, end of story. You didn't seem me starting to analyse what he does, etc?

My turn for a wish now ;)

I wish that people would not dismiss education because of people like Zimmer and what THEY can do.

For the record, I wasn't aiming my comments at you Nikolas. Rest easy. :)

Also, I understand you don't like people trying to "up" themselves by stating their self taught, but perhaps it is a defensive mechanism? Maybe they feel like they have to because other educated people have dismissed their opinions in the past? I don't really know. I try to give everyone a voice and will completely respect their opinion as long as their is some rationale behind their choices.

You know I went to school and studied by toosh off. (Odd word: toosh) So of course I'm not offended or against formal education- after all I'm a part of it! I'm just against those thinking nothing is possible without formal education. There have been enough prodigies (although rare) to prove that sometimes people just "have it".

Focusing on the music, my opinion is 'meh'.

Why doesn't anybody discuss other self-taught composers who make beautiful music (Zbigniw Preisner, for example)?

I'm going to google Zbigniw Preisner right now and learn something about him. I know nothing of him!

Any other good ones to check out?