Snobbery in classical music

Discuss

Yes there is. Tons!

From composers, to performers, to audience. All alike.

TBH, I can see the point a little bit, that you can't compare really a work by... Beethoven, and a DJing track, but then again it's all music and nobody should care if it took 10 minutes, or 12 months to finish...

Doesn't exist! ;)

Doesn't exist! ;)

True or False

People don't think classical music is for the rich white elite (wine and cheese partiers, if you will)

It's there.

And I feel it SHOULD be there. Apart from the Beethoven/Tiesto comparison by Nikolas, there's the PR factor. Sometimes, being overly friendly/helpful gets you nowhere. The 'distanced, snobbish artist' image sells.

It's there.

And I feel it SHOULD be there. Apart from the Beethoven/Tiesto comparison by Nikolas, there's the PR factor. Sometimes, being overly friendly/helpful gets you nowhere. The 'distanced, snobbish artist' image sells.

you completely missed the point

I regret to inform you that a great number of metalheads actually enjoy classical music as well.

But metal elitists are the worst of all.

One of the pop/classical split's effects was to cause "classical" (art/concert music) composers to view popular song writers as idiots, and in turn for those popular song writers to view "classical" composers as aloof snobs.

I personally reconcile this conflict by viewing anyone's musical output as being largely a product of their environment, as is the case with most human behaviour. In other words, if you grow up in an inner city slum, you won't sing happy birthday using a note row (deadpan humour there, before someone jumps the gun). Instead, you may identify more with hip hop artists who, while generally being musically untrained, still create music appealing to certain people because they can relate to it.

By the same token, budding composers can begin to relate to new music as they uncover various new compositional techniques, and/or the composer's motivation.

I will end by saying that there is of course no excuse for classical snobbery or popular ignorance, rather I believe there are plausible reasons for those trends existing.

Discuss

You missed setting one. :glare:

Apart from that, I'm talking about the functionality of 'snobbism', as is.

gms: You somehow seem to be snob to the people posting in here! :D:D:D

discuss... ;)

Of course there is... in every aspect - concertgoers, musicians, genres, you name it. It's just a reflection of the world as a whole. *shrug*

I like snobs. It makes it easy to know whose opinions to ignore.

Actually....I like ignorant snobs. If you actually know what you're talking about, by all means be a snob - I do!!

...

nobody should care if it took 10 minutes, or 12 months to finish

If that's not sarcasm, it's pretty much rubbish.

Why should no-body care?

Should we appreciate the cheap and hasty things as much as the refined well-thought-out things? Should we appreciate DJ-steeky as much as Beethoven because .... well, what WAS your reason? Just "because"?

Things are not equal just becaue you want them to be. I'm not broaching the topic of validity here, or saying that a masterpiece of mixing can't be better than a terrible piece of classical music, but I'm saying: things are not equal, and we should not treat them as if they were.

I'm not saying it should be equal. Equal to what?

What I'm saying is this:

Listen to some music. Without knowing ANYTHING about it. You appreciate it for what it is (music). If you find out that it was written in 3 hours, maybe, or it took 2 years to finish, does it make any difference for you? Big chances are that the 2 years will be a masterpiece and the 3 hours rubbish, which is what logic seems to indicate, but then again, this alone is no reason to judge something.

Same with blind pianists, or deaf composers, or young composers. The fact remains that I want to listen to a CD. I don't care who is playing or what are his problems. In the end I want to enjoy the music. Sure I will give hige benefit to the blind pianist and it is amazing, and humanitarian and gives me hope and everything, but then again I want to listen to quality piano playing, no matter who is playing. If the blind pianist can't play as well, I'm sorry but I just won't be buying his CDs pretty much. Admiration? Certainly, but not for musical reasons exactly.

hope I'm making myself clear. :)

there's no such thing as "snobbism"...

there's only what *I* like and all the other crap I don't give a scraggy about.

and anyone who doesn't realize I'm being facetious... well... get a life :P

Nik - of course if the music is great, we can appreciate it whether it was an opera composed in 2 weeks by Mozart, or composed in 12 years by Wagner - the time is irrelevant to us.

However, it seemed to me that you were suggesting that DJ music (which takes less time to ...make) is equally as worthwhile as classical music.

The way you mentioned the time in relation to this made me think you were talking about the one type of music compared with the other - rather than just the time itself.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious I have a low opinion of DJs and dance music, so I should shush. :innocent:

One of the pop/classical split's effects was to cause "classical" (art/concert music) composers to view popular song writers as idiots, and in turn for those popular song writers to view "classical" composers as aloof snobs.

I personally reconcile this conflict by viewing anyone's musical output as being largely a product of their environment, as is the case with most human behaviour. In other words, if you grow up in an inner city slum, you won't sing happy birthday using a note row (deadpan humour there, before someone jumps the gun). Instead, you may identify more with hip hop artists who, while generally being musically untrained, still create music appealing to certain people because they can relate to it.

By the same token, budding composers can begin to relate to new music as they uncover various new compositional techniques, and/or the composer's motivation.

I will end by saying that there is of course no excuse for classical snobbery or popular ignorance, rather I believe there are plausible reasons for those trends existing.

I agree. Although, I was raised in the inner city around the slum and whatnot. I had the fortunate "mistake" of classical music and things changed. For me it was such a different form of expression than that of hip-hop, soul, or caribbean music. But I still found so many things that were similar and thats why for me the expression of my music is based of off the classical experience as well as other things that were part of my living, in a very real sense.

If that's not sarcasm, it's pretty much rubbish.

Why should no-body care?

Should we appreciate the cheap and hasty things as much as the refined well-thought-out things? Should we appreciate DJ-steeky as much as Beethoven because .... well, what WAS your reason? Just "because"?

Things are not equal just becaue you want them to be. I'm not broaching the topic of validity here, or saying that a masterpiece of mixing can't be better than a terrible piece of classical music, but I'm saying: things are not equal, and we should not treat them as if they were.

True many things musically are not equal. But not always in the sense that Beethoven is superior to something that comes from other froms that are labled as less elevated. Though I may be a "classical" composer, there is actually a small amount of classical music that I enjoy. I enjoy classical music for what it is and for what it isn't. Just as I enjoy hip-hop, gospel, caribbean music for what it is and for what its not. If a masterpiece of mixing is better than a terrible piece of classical music then I look at them as equals in terms of what each is meant to be and what its not meant to be.

I think when a person has experienced various types of music as part of an environment, lifestyle and acquired craft then the snobbery will vanish. I tend to pull out the snob attitude when someone tends bring up the point of valitidy or equality between forms or styles of music as if no matter how great, one form would never be equal to another.

All praise QCC, from now known as "the Seatlian" (go figure...)

In truth, Dan, I'd have an urge to use the term "different" and no other, if I was political correct. Bit scraggy, I'm not. I don't value DJing, too much, or dance music too much either. But I do have to give credit where credit is due. (BT, Aphex twin, etc).

The DJ vs Beethoven was just an example. If I wanted to put things to a test, I'd compare NIN to Beethoven, and then I would fight in favour of NIN really ;) I love him, love what he does, what he says, etc. Same with Radiohead and dEUS and KoRN and System of a Dawn, etc. And I simply won't distringuish between "art" and "commercial".

In truth, I really think that, while in the past, the key points in history were made by classical musicians (western history of music, never mentions anyone... popular (pop), or a bard, or anything). Nowadays I think that the next key point in history will not come from contemporary classical scene (as I experience it in London), because it is simply rubbish. Me included. It will come from people, completely open minded. UNKLE, BT, Radiohead, etc.

:(WHY ON EARTH MY EVERY POST TURNS INTO A MANIPHESTO OF SHORTS???? :(

EDIT: BTW, what is the value of music really? If 1 completely silly track can be heard 60,000,000 times only on youtube (refering to Avril Lavigne and "I want to be your girlfriend"), then doesn't this mean automatically that it means something to lots of people? Popularity is the value? Originality? Rebelious new tracks? What is the value? Cause in the end, I, personally, value deep music, that speaks to me, that tells me something ,etc. But I am forced to admit that I am above average in listening music. So, if other people find value in... metal music, and swear by it, I the expert could trash it, but why?

just goes to show how stupid most people are :glare:...

Of course, I'm only kidding :P.....well, half kidding...

All I know is I like what I like, and will do what I do, because I am who I am and will stay that way for as long as I stay that way. So, therefore: _________

I think one has to separate one's personal taste from a pragmatic standard of quality as defined by the consensus view amongst experienced educated people (assuming there is a consensus which there isn't necessarily). For example, Beethoven is considered a great composer by this consensus. With this separation, one can say, "This is a great work, but I don't like it." and vice versa. Just agreeing with the consensus willy-nilly makes one a snob, doesn't it?

I think one has to separate one's personal taste from a pragmatic standard of quality as defined by the consensus view amongst experienced educated people (assuming there is a consensus which there isn't necessarily). For example, Beethoven is considered a great composer by this consensus. With this separation, one can say, "This is a great work, but I don't like it." and vice versa. Just agreeing with the consensus willy-nilly makes one a snob, doesn't it?

I tend to view "snobbism" in the opposite direction: someone DISliking something based on an uneducated parrotting of someone else's opinion.

ie:

I think rap is crap (because the music critics hate it)

I think Sibelius is a forgettable composer (because I heard someone say that at school)

Or even simply looking down on something because it is popular. For example, it seems to be quite fashionable to bash Celine Dion.

Is it because she can't sing?

Obviously not, since she's demonstrated that she has quite the set of pipes on her.

Is it because of the type of music she sings?

If so, what exactly differentiates it from the songs of any other singer of pop ballads?

Hell, even using a slightly less extreme example:

How many people here have actually made derogatory comments about John Williams?

I've read some people here refer to him as a "hack"... which really smacks of rather extreme snobbism.

Of course there is snobbism in classical music. I find there is snobbism in most things.

I think mainly it comes from people not respecting the works of the masters whom they don't like. While I don't like Mozart or Hayden, I still respect it, and there are a few works by them which I do like. A classical snob would say 'That music is by a composer I don't like, therefore I'm not going to bother listening to it/I won't like it when I do listen to it'.

The more proffessional the musicians in question, the rarer this is.

So, if other people find value in... metal music, and swear by it, I the expert could trash it, but why?

Because cookie monster vocals are hilarious?

I think mainly it comes from people not respecting the works of the masters whom they don't like. While I don't like Mozart or Hayden, I still respect it, and there are a few works by them which I do like.

there's no such thing as "snobbism"...

there's only what *I* like and all the other crap I don't give a scraggy about.

and anyone who doesn't realize I'm being facetious... well... get a life :P

Haha

I think one has to separate one's personal taste from a pragmatic standard of quality as defined by the consensus view amongst experienced educated people (assuming there is a consensus which there isn't necessarily). For example, Beethoven is considered a great composer by this consensus. With this separation, one can say, "This is a great work, but I don't like it." and vice versa. Just agreeing with the consensus willy-nilly makes one a snob, doesn't it?

Very good point Euler!