Snobbery in classical music

NO, it can't! Music cannot be made without flutes, violins, horns and/or piano! THAT's IT!!

**Robin rolls his eyes, and wanders off to listen to some AACM records**

A vibraphone produces music, yes. A snare drum is equally as musical as a fart.

Whoa. Okay....

So this video in your opinion is on the same level as a bunch of people running around farting in unison?

I think you equating a snare drum with a fart is more a reflection of your lack of an understanding of what percussion is capable of rather than a statement that shows careful reflection and thought.

So this video in your opinion is on the same level as a bunch of people running around farting in unison?

A vibraphone produces music, yes. A snare drum is equally as musical as a fart.

That's a mighty brash statement for you to make young man.

I see a lot of Mozart's music as being 'snobbish.'

But I like that. It shows how good of a composer he was. He spent most of his later years in Vienna composing for the "snobby" aristocratic royalty, and that's what they perfered.

I don't think it was because Mozart was stuck up at all.

I never used the word snobbish per say...

I see a lot of Mozart's music as being 'snobbish.'

But I like that. It shows how good of a composer he was. He spent most of his later years in Vienna composing for the "snobby" aristocratic royalty, and that's what they perfered.

I don't think it was because Mozart was stuck up at all.

I never used the word snobbish per say...

Umm what?

If anything, Mozart was always pushing the aristocrats' buttons. Hell, they even show that in the movie (Amadeus). Mozart was a musical radical in many ways, and it helped that he was incredibly confident in his abilities.

Umm what?

If anything, Mozart was always pushing the aristocrats' buttons. Hell, they even show that in the movie (Amadeus). Mozart was a musical radical in many ways, and it helped that he was incredibly confident in his abilities.

Yea, that is along the same lines of what I am saying. Mozart was simply writing for the aristocrats' rather than writing anything he wanted. So he just wrote what they liked...or whatever made them want more...and I think it turned out kind of 'snobbish' sounding, if we want to use that word.

I don't disagree with you either.

But I'm sure that's one of the only things that movie portrayed accurately. :P

(Tom Hulce or something?...they really couldn't have picked a better man, but boy did they really make Mozart to be something mad)

Whoa. Okay....

So this video in your opinion is on the same level as a bunch of people running around farting in unison?

I think you equating a snare drum with a fart is more a reflection of your lack of an understanding of what percussion is capable of rather than a statement that shows careful reflection and thought.

Yeah, sure, I lack understanding simply because you don't get what I'm saying. Drummers have talent (at least the, uh, talented ones). But so do jugglers. Just because drums are used in a musical context doesn't make them a musical instrument. They do not produce melody or harmony, only rhythm, so they're basically the same thing as pots and pans, or a pencil hitting a table, or whatever.

I'm fine with other people claiming that drums are an instrument. I don't find them ignorant, as long as they don't run around calling drummers musicians but denouncing the "'musical' saw" or the sound that it makes when one man's head makes when it smacks a brick as unmusical. And there are people that think that they are musical. They just have a broader definition of music than I do.

...Just because drums are used in a musical context doesn't make them a musical instrument. They do not produce melody or harmony, only rhythm...

I know many people who would disagree with that...

**wonders why drummers spend so long tuning their kit** :whistling:

I know many people who would disagree with that...

**wonders why drummers spend so long tuning their kit** :whistling:

When's the last time your drummer gave a crap that you modulated?

When's the last time your drummer gave a crap that you modulated?

That's not what we're talking about here...

{also, any drummer with big ears should care that I've modulated. If they're listening, and reacting appropriately, it'll make a big difference. Especially in free-improv settings, if we're not all on the same page, then the whole thing is doomed}

I've heard many a melodic drum solo...good improvisors can pull it off.

Perhaps we have different definitions of melodic.

Yeah, sure, I lack understanding simply because you don't get what I'm saying. Drummers have talent (at least the, uh, talented ones). But so do jugglers. Just because drums are used in a musical context doesn't make them a musical instrument. They do not produce melody or harmony, only rhythm, so they're basically the same thing as pots and pans, or a pencil hitting a table, or whatever.

I'm fine with other people claiming that drums are an instrument. I don't find them ignorant, as long as they don't run around calling drummers musicians but denouncing the "'musical' saw" or the sound that it makes when one man's head makes when it smacks a brick as unmusical. And there are people that think that they are musical. They just have a broader definition of music than I do.

Are we specifically talking about drum set players or percussionists?

When's the last time your drummer gave a crap that you modulated?

Every drummer I've dealt with cared about that a lot. This is in the context of jazz improvisation of course, big ears, as said before, are very important. I'm curious spherenine, what ensemble experience do you have?

Wow, the ignorance.

There's also no difference between an oboe and a rusty squeeze box. :whistling:

Comparing percussion to a jogger is just out of the question.

Drumming is about time, technique, clarity, color, and much of the same thing any instrument that gets out more than one note. Well as a matter of fact, drumsets have toms, batteri have basses and tenors, and so on and so forth.

Anyone can take a snare drum and think of it as making one sound. Only a percussionist can do rimshots, crushes, stick shots, rim knocks, clicks, stick flips, all behind one snare drum... need I say more?

You simply lack knowledge and understanding of percussion. I think maybe you should think about it more before you say something like that, no?

Drumming is essential to a lot of music. Therefore, I think it makes it very musical.

Yeah, sure, I lack understanding simply because you don't get what I'm saying. Drummers have talent (at least the, uh, talented ones). But so do jugglers. Just because drums are used in a musical context doesn't make them a musical instrument. They do not produce melody or harmony, only rhythm, so they're basically the same thing as pots and pans, or a pencil hitting a table, or whatever.

I'm fine with other people claiming that drums are an instrument. I don't find them ignorant, as long as they don't run around calling drummers musicians but denouncing the "'musical' saw" or the sound that it makes when one man's head makes when it smacks a brick as unmusical. And there are people that think that they are musical. They just have a broader definition of music than I do.

Well I suppose the sound of a man's head smacking a brick could be used in a musical way. But to compare that with drumming, and even juggling. Granted, juggling and percussion both require refined technique but you still need good freaking ears to play the drums/percussion.

Does anyone else find the title of this topic "Snobbery In Classical Music" ironic at this point?

Well I suppose the sound of a man's head smacking a brick could be used in a musical way. But to compare that with drumming, and even juggling. Granted, juggling and percussion both require refined technique but you still need good freaking ears to play the drums/percussion.

Does anyone else find the title of this topic "Snobbery In Classical Music" ironic at this point?

I find it even more ironic that I was thinking that just before I read this post. :O

Are we specifically talking about drum set players or percussionists?

Work on your reading comprehension, pal.

That's not what we're talking about here...

{also, any drummer with big ears should care that I've modulated. If they're listening, and reacting appropriately, it'll make a big difference. Especially in free-improv settings, if we're not all on the same page, then the whole thing is doomed}

I was anticipating a little speech on how drummers should care about modulation. Pretty clearly not what I meant, though. I mean that aside from the change of the overall feel of the music, drummers should care about a harmonic modulation as much as some guy holding a note down on a synthesizer for three minutes should care about a metric modulation.

I've heard many a melodic drum solo...good improvisors can pull it off.

Perhaps we have different definitions of melodic.

With all due respect, you were probably watching somebody play marimba. :toothygrin:

Well I suppose the sound of a man's head smacking a brick could be used in a musical way. But to compare that with drumming, and even juggling. Granted, juggling and percussion both require refined technique but you still need good freaking ears to play the drums/percussion.

You also need good ears to tap your foot along to the Rite of Spring. I, however, do not find that to make the foot a musical instrument.

Does anyone else find the title of this topic "Snobbery In Classical Music" ironic at this point?

There's a difference between snobbery and being discriminating in defining music so as not to make the term lose all meaning.

But just to debase the validity of your quip a little further, I shall note that I consider myself primarily to be a heavy metal listener, and I can admit that while Pavarotti's voice is used as an instrument, Chuck Schuldiner growling with no regard to pitch is as unmusical as anything else. My opinion isn't based on preference or anything snobby. It's based on sound logic and a respect for actual music.

And to reiterate, my definition of music is all about consistency. I have yet to hear a compelling argument that stipulates both that drums are an instrument and that a table, foot, head, lamp, bottle, etc. isn't. Define anything and everything as music and you have much more respect from me than does somebody that only defines drums as an instrument because they're used in rock bands.

Let me try this.... it might take me a couple of tries:

A violin just sitting there is just a piece of wood.

A drum just sitting there is just a piece of wood.

A piece of wood just sitting there is just a piece of wood.

If you bow a violin to make a noise, you have a noisy piece of wood.

If you hit a drum to make a noise, you have a noisy drum.

If you hit a piece of wood, you have a noisy piece of wood.

If you bow a violin in such a way to establish patterns and consistency (Such as having a consistent timbre that produces consistent frequencies at regular time intervals) you are making music.

If you hit a drum in such a way so as to establish patterns and consistency (Such as having a consistent timbre that produces consistent frequencies at regular time intervals) you are making music.

If you hit a piece of wood in such a way so as to establish patterns and consistency (Such as having a consistent timbre that produces consistent frequencies at regular time intervals) you are making music.

It seems like you're drawing the line right behind the concept of pitch. In your world, it's not music unless it has pitches. Am I far off?

I'll ignore your insulting demeanor toward Robin for now.

Those are all pretty ridiculous statements.

For the love of God, please back up your statements if you're going to call mine ridiculous.

Don't be insulted but may I ask how old you are? I hate getting broiled up in these arguments only to find I'm talking with a 17 year old.

I'm eighteen. Let that be fuel for your oncoming ad hominem argument.

I must have edited that post while you were replying. I didn't see that last one until after I made the reply. Check it again.

Understand that while your ideas are clear to YOU, they aren't clear to us. I think I understand your point now but I still find it ridiculous.

I was anticipating a little speech on how drummers should care about modulation. Pretty clearly not what I meant, though.

I know...that's why it was a little speech (I even changed the font size to be little).

With all due respect' date=' you were probably watching somebody play marimba. :toothygrin:

...

...note that I consider myself primarily to be a heavy metal listener[/quote']

Yeah marimba, that's the metal one that you play with a rolled-up newspaper, right?

We're very clearly coming from different perspectives, and my definition of music does include anything and everything - it's the intent that's important (but that's irrelevant).

NOW...you said a foot tapping to Stravinsky is not a musical instrument. Do you feel that a foot can not be a musical instrument? I just want to clarify, and I'm confused about your stance here. You make the distinction between Pavarotti (musical) and Schuldiner (unmusical) based on your "respect for actual music". But someone who "define anything and everything as music" gets more respect from you? Are you one who defines music in this way? What is "actual music"? I just need some clarity on your position...

It seems that, in some aspects, our philosophies may not be so remote - but I can't really tell.

ANYWAY, I'll never begrudge anyone their own definition of music, and I'll always have mine. And trust me, I'm as far out as you can imagine - and your death metal is tame compared to some things I consider musical.

:whistling: The fat is in the fire...

Music died with Michael Praetorius