Snobbery in classical music

Um, yes, that....is one :huh:...

now...those comments by Wagner might be seriously bizzare :musicwhistle:...

No, I beg to differ. But I'm a glutton for being different.

I didn't invent harmony, and nor did anyone here or Wagner or Bach or de Pres or anyone else. Acoustics and the harmonic series have been around for a good while. Just because I choose to shoot b9s and #11s on 1-2-6-3-1 progressions doesn't make me a bad composer... certainly if I feel my work has adequately expressed my emotion and I am satisfied with it, and you don't enjoy it, something has been lost in translation, and that is not the fault of the composer who has done his job well.

As for snobbery? Sure it exists. It should not. Music IS MUSIC: no matter what you listen to or write, you morally must respect the efforts that others put into their music that others listen to, should it takes ten minutes or ten months. You're not required to like it, of course, but to shun something because of its simplicity is very elitist to me. I very eagerly await the day where classical musicians can appreciate hiphop. Not necessarily listen to it! ... but appreciate it as music.

I very eagerly await the day where classical musicians can appreciate hiphop. Not necessarily listen to it! ... but appreciate it as music.

They don't?

Well. Not all of them. You always have the smart people, they don't count. When the dumb people follow, then we're good.

So, not liking hiphop makes one "not smart"?

Hrmm... stealing direct samples of other peoples works, using canned drumbeats from a machine, looping endless noise effects (also stolen from other's works), and saying violent, disrespectful, and tasteless "poetry" in rhythm is something I should appreciate?

Riiiiight.

If that makes me a snob, so be it. *shrug*

Hrmm... stealing direct samples of other peoples works, using canned drumbeats from a machine, looping endless noise effects (also stolen from other's works), and saying violent, disrespectful, and tasteless "poetry" in rhythm is something I should appreciate?

Riiiiight.

If that makes me a snob, so be it. *shrug*

Yeah there's bad rap music, but isn't there plenty of bad "classical" music to go along with it? I'd be willing to question how much rap music you yourself have heard. Of course, I mean this in no disrespect, but you seem to be in maybe your 40s? Of course what's a 40-something year old white guy going to see in any rap music, but like contemporary rock music, there's more to the genre than what you see being complained about on CNN or on MTV (ugh). Trust me, there is PLENTY to be respected in rap music, your comment just isn't fair. Even my professors acknowledge and appreciate the relevance of rap music, in fact we're having a guest composer some time next semester who's been very successful (just got a commission from some major orchestra I believe) and writes in what's been described to me as a fusion of classical and hip-hop. Apparently it's very fresh, so I'll save any skepticism I may have. Long story short, they're plenty of great rap music.

I'm surprised by some of the opinions in here of popular music, DJs and whatnot. Are we actually refuting the modern cultural relevance of that music? I think that's the box a lot of so called classical musicians need to break themselves out of. That's what separates success from, well, lack of success...

Yeah there's bad rap music, but isn't there plenty of bad "classical" music to go along with it?

I'm surprised by some of the opinions in here of popular music, DJs and whatnot....

People simply aren't exposed to the good stuff. I find (sweeping generalization, but quite accurate) that jazz musicians tend to have much broader musical tastes than, say, our classical/rock/whatever counterparts.

Me? I'm a musical omnivore - I will devour and enjoy pretty much any genre/style/musician you can throw at me. BUT, I know what I like, I know why I like it, and I know what I dislike.

It's a ceaseless quest for me (us) to find any/all good music. Granted 98% of radio-play is garbage. It's discovering the hidden gems where one can understand and appreciate ANYTHING.

Rap/hip-hop? I dug a lot of Wu-Tang early stuff (RZA's grooves were super-solid). Also, Busta Rhymes, K-OS, Black Sheep, Arrested Development...scraggy, even some of Public Enemy and NWA is good (despite being horribly racist and violent).

The point is, the junk we're bombarded with day-in, day-out on MTV and radio isn't necessarily what has the most musical merit...as a listener, you can't be so quick to dismiss an entire genre without doing some research and serious listening first.

:whistling:

It seems what is mostly shown on TV is girls in very short, tight pants giving the camera a lap dance, accompanied by a guy telling you how cool he is in the background...

People simply aren't exposed to the good stuff. I find (sweeping generalization, but quite accurate) that jazz musicians tend to have much broader musical tastes than, say, our classical/rock/whatever counterparts.

Me? I'm a musical omnivore - I will devour and enjoy pretty much any genre/style/musician you can throw at me. BUT, I know what I like, I know why I like it, and I know what I dislike.

It's a ceaseless quest for me (us) to find any/all good music. Granted 98% of radio-play is garbage. It's discovering the hidden gems where one can understand and appreciate ANYTHING.

Rap/hip-hop? I dug a lot of Wu-Tang early stuff (RZA's grooves were super-solid). Also, Busta Rhymes, K-OS, Black Sheep, Arrested Development...scraggy, even some of Public Enemy and NWA is good (despite being horribly racist and violent).

The point is, the junk we're bombarded with day-in, day-out on MTV and radio isn't necessarily what has the most musical merit...as a listener, you can't be so quick to dismiss an entire genre without doing some research and serious listening first.

:whistling:

You have no idea how much I love this post. I completely agree with everything you said, especially the comment on jazz musicians. So very true.

How interesting that people are willing to jump through hoops to defend rap and hiphop but in the same breath refer to the "junk" that is playing on radio or MTv.

Let me guess, those who would defend rap and hiphop aren't quite so quick to come to Celine Dion's defence?

How interesting that people are willing to jump through hoops to defend rap and hiphop but in the same breath refer to the "junk" that is playing on radio or MTv.

Let me guess, those who would defend rap and hiphop aren't quite so quick to come to Celine Dion's defence?

Well there is junk on MTV. There's junk everywhere. Who said anything about Celine Dion, sir? How can anyone hate Celine Dion, she's harmless. Also, it depends on the context.

How interesting that people are willing to jump through hoops to defend rap and hiphop but in the same breath refer to the "junk" that is playing on radio or MTv.

Let me guess, those who would defend rap and hiphop aren't quite so quick to come to Celine Dion's defence?

I'll defend anything I feel is musical. I'll also berate anything I feel is unmusical...

...Who said anything about Celine Dion, sir? How can anyone hate Celine Dion, she's harmless...

She's also a spectacularly good singer. Her musical output may be questionable (to me), but she's got a serious set of pipes. Her new record is also (apparently) quite a departure from her established musical persona.

The only people I know of who hate Celine are the people in the flightpath of her helicopter when she flies home at 2am in the morning from her Vegas gig. ;)

Celine's great. I don't so much dig the songs she sings but I love her (hehe) pipes).

As far as hiphop goes... it just so happens that I play organ in a hiphop band in which I also arrange most of the music. I don't freestyle, but I know what makes a good groove. I'll post something up here sometime. Some people might like it.

Robin, you're living in Victoria right? You've played with some people I know from Capp College. I recently transfered from there to UBC. Small world eh?

I'll defend anything I feel is musical. I'll also berate anything I feel is unmusical...

She's also a spectacularly good singer. Her musical output may be questionable (to me), but she's got a serious set of pipes. Her new record is also (apparently) quite a departure from her established musical persona.

See?

That's exactly what I mean.

"Musical"... "unmusical". Why is it that someone who dislikes rap and hiphop cannot think it is "unmusical" without coming across as a "snob"?

Why would it be "ok" to say that some of Celine Dion's (for example, it's not that I'm a terrible fan of hers, but it's a good example of an artist who gets trashed on a lot) musical output/repertoire is "questionable"?

I think my own musical tastes are probably among the more wide-ranging on this forum. But according to some who have posted here, my dislike of rap and hiphop would single me out and identify me as a musical snob.

I'm actually reading a lot of borderline hypocrisy in this thread.

"Musical"... "unmusical". Why is it that someone who dislikes rap and hiphop cannot think it is "unmusical" without coming across as a "snob"?

Because people take everything to the extreme.

If someone wants to say they dislike something, simply saying "I don't like this" or "This is stupid" is what comes across as snobbery moreso IMO.

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, many people just don't know how to put it to words so that they are not misunderstood

*sigh* I've followed this thread pretty closely because I'm interested but I think this is going nowhere. Let's be realistic, none of us are going to have equal respect for every single genre of music. Sure, you can be really musically open minded and respect a great deal of music but you will never find someone who enjoys listening to death metal, gangster rap and classical music equally. You might find someone who likes all three but chances are, they will have a preference.

I sure as hell have a preference, I like classical music and death metal. But I prefer classical. It depends on my mood really but my point is, I still have a preference. To call someone a snob just because they think Mozart wrote more legitimate music than say Britney Spears is not being a snob. It's simply their opinion. Now if I dismissed Britney Spears' music just because it's popular and played on the radio, that would make me snob. I simply don't like Britney Spears because her music is far too simplistic for my tastes and it's far too generic. That doesn't make me snob, that just makes me a human being with an opinion and calling me a snob because I don't enjoy listening to Britney actually makes you the snob. You're the one that needs to get off your high horse because chances are, you don't enjoy all music equally either.

Basically, my point is, we all have different opinions and calling each other snobs because we don't all agree with each other is just stupid. Can't we all agree just to not call each other snobs? Calling someone a snob because they don't like hip-hop just makes you seem like a snob.

OF COURSE there are preferences!...

Perhaps my post was misconstrued. I never said that I listen equally to hiphop, metal, folk, jazz, classical and so forth, or that I enjoy all of them equally... but I do enjoy all of them. And that's simply personal preference. I have no problem with a classically trained composer who chooses not to listen to anything but classical music, or in fact can't stand the contemporary popular music.. however, I have a problem when that classical composer begins to insult rap and pop because it's less complex or some other arbitrary justification. They are all legitimate forms of musical expression. A song about loving scallopes and shooting niggas is just as legitimate as a violin concerto. Do I expect people to enjoy the former as much, of course not; do I expect people to accept the former as "musical" as opposed to "unmusical", absolutely I do.

Being snobbish isn't having preferences, it's being closeminded and refusing to acknowledge anything outside your box of fugues and symphonies.

Let me just go on record and say that I think that rap has no real musical value. However, I also have a much more focused (limited) definition of music than most people (YC and general population, I presume), so my opinion can be chalked up to this fact and make me seem like less of an donkey than if some guy here who raves about 4'33" being amazing saying the same thing.

Yes there is. Tons!

From composers, to performers, to audience. All alike.

TBH, I can see the point a little bit, that you can't compare really a work by... Beethoven, and a DJing track, but then again it's all music and nobody should care if it took 10 minutes, or 12 months to finish...

I remember I was reading something about how orchestras are playing music from video games now. The author was fervently against this, and called for people to challenge the "modern PC view" that said that the White Stripes album was just as good as a Schubert Waltz. They had orchestra members talk about how the video game music was cheesy and so on.

I think my opinion on the matter is obvious vv

Let me just go on record and say that I think that rap has no real musical value.

Ugh... How about percussion? Do you think percussion can be musical?

A vibraphone produces music, yes. A snare drum is equally as musical as a fart.