Snobbery in classical music

Well.

My train of thought says that the audience can (and should) also be "trained". That you can't take an 8 year old and put him in the front row to listen to Ligeti. Mozart might be better.

Actually scrap that. Kids will listen to anything (mine do...). But I can't say they enjoy Boulez very much, while the really love Dukas ;)

Anyways thing is that someone who listens to only classical and baroque music will have a hard time "understanding" (not in the analytical point of view) a contempoary piece of music, and thing is that maybe after a bit of "training" or getting into this kind of thing, they might enjoy it later on.

So, someone who's spent 20 years in music, I would imagine that they also listen, means that they are trained as audiences and can be more objective to some kinds of music. After all it is not unusual to get the odd comment in here "I have a feeling that you don't listen to a lot of... *put a composer in here*".

Of course, expressing yourself plays a very important role, but also knowing what to hear for, or search for, or what the composer also aims for, matters greatly.

Every opinion should matter in utopia world. But in the end, somehow one needs to distinguish between the rubbish opinion (and there are inthe world, in every part, about everything) from the usefull.

And the fact will remain, no matter how "snob" I may sound. In my 30 years of life I have listened to SO much music, and wrote rather a lot, so I have "earned" my right to express my opinion. Sure it depends on what the other person will tell me, but someone who does NOT listen to music, or does NOT listen to contemporary music (for example, cause I don't deal only with such music), will have a hard time convincing me about things.

It is idiotically politically correct to simply accept that all people have the same "rights" in expressing opinion about everything, and music as well. I accept that all around me know better than me in what they do. My wife is an architect and I would never dream of saying anything to her, apart from some philosophical discussions about art, etc. My father is a doctor, etc. I won't speak my opinion to the electrician. I'll shut up and let him do his job. Same with music really. Some people simply show that they know what they are talking about, while others just... don't. This is life. And it's not really that tough. ;)

Well.

My train of thought says that the audience can (and should) also be "trained". That you can't take an 8 year old and put him in the front row to listen to Ligeti. Mozart might be better.

Actually scrap that. Kids will listen to anything (mine do...). But I can't say they enjoy Boulez very much, while the really love Dukas ;)

Anyways thing is that someone who listens to only classical and baroque music will have a hard time "understanding" (not in the analytical point of view) a contempoary piece of music, and thing is that maybe after a bit of "training" or getting into this kind of thing, they might enjoy it later on.

So, someone who's spent 20 years in music, I would imagine that they also listen, means that they are trained as audiences and can be more objective to some kinds of music. After all it is not unusual to get the odd comment in here "I have a feeling that you don't listen to a lot of... *put a composer in here*".

Of course, expressing yourself plays a very important role, but also knowing what to hear for, or search for, or what the composer also aims for, matters greatly.

Every opinion should matter in utopia world. But in the end, somehow one needs to distinguish between the rubbish opinion (and there are inthe world, in every part, about everything) from the usefull.

And the fact will remain, no matter how "snob" I may sound. In my 30 years of life I have listened to SO much music, and wrote rather a lot, so I have "earned" my right to express my opinion. Sure it depends on what the other person will tell me, but someone who does NOT listen to music, or does NOT listen to contemporary music (for example, cause I don't deal only with such music), will have a hard time convincing me about things.

It is idiotically politically correct to simply accept that all people have the same "rights" in expressing opinion about everything, and music as well. I accept that all around me know better than me in what they do. My wife is an architect and I would never dream of saying anything to her, apart from some philosophical discussions about art, etc. My father is a doctor, etc. I won't speak my opinion to the electrician. I'll shut up and let him do his job. Same with music really. Some people simply show that they know what they are talking about, while others just... don't. This is life. And it's not really that tough. ;)

The problem with your examples is that the doctor has people's health as his responsibility, the architect can't let buildings fall down and kill people or become unsafe or otherwise impractical and the same thing with the electrician.

But the musician? Sorry, but we don't do anything practical. Nobody will die if you did that parallel 5th, or wrote a cluster. People may not like your soundtrack, or your concert. But you're not handling mission critical things.

In this respect, there's a whole lot more freedom for people to say what they want. It won't kill anyone to listen to people's opinion or not. A doctor that listens to someone who doesn't know a thing about medicine can end up killing people, or who knows what.

So, well. I don't mean to undermine your studies or anything, but you could've studied, listened and written music for a thousand years, it won't make you more or less entitled to have an opinion about it. It doesn't affect anything objective and practical.

Well, you actually, are undermining my studies, but I don't really care. ;)

Thing is that in both accounts you are rather wrong:

Most doctors (read 90% and more) don't deal with life and death situations. Who cares if a dentist screws up (most of the times, right? Of course everything is important), or if the vet screws up and your cat has 10 kitties, and so on...

And architects (believe me, my wife is an architect) are NOT the ones responsible for the building to stay up. The design, they don't do the statics!

I haven't heard your music, but if you think SO low of music, I don't think that you should be a composer really! Music has been around forever (along with architecture and medicine, since I brought them up, btw), and it shapes cultures and souls. Civilasation (and spelling :D:D:D) is as important as health and planning!

So, in all truth actually: You write something, and somebody comes and trash it. Don't you wish to know WHO he is? Or what he's done? Not only because of ego or anything, but because his trashing is awful, rude, and doesn't make much sense, although perfectly articulated.

BTW, I use examples as examples and not as arguments.

Well, you actually, are undermining my studies, but I don't really care. ;)

Thing is that in both accounts you are rather wrong:

Most doctors (read 90% and more) don't deal with life and death situations. Who cares if a dentist screws up (most of the times, right? Of course everything is important), or if the vet screws up and your cat has 10 citties, and so on...

And architects (believe me, my wife is an architect) are NOT the ones responsible for the building to stay up. The design, they don't do the statics!

I haven't heard your music, but if you think SO low of music, I don't think that you should be a composer really! Music has been around forever (along with architecture and medicine, since I brought them up, btw), and it shapes cultures and souls. Civilasation (and spelling :D:D:D) is as important as health and planning!

So, in all truth actually: You write something, and somebody comes and trash it. Don't you wish to know WHO he is? Or what he's done? Not only because of ego or anything, but because his trashing is awful, rude, and doesn't make much sense, although perfectly articulated.

BTW, I use examples as examples and not as arguments.

I'm trying to say that if someone who knew nothing about music came up and said something, then someone with a thousand years of experience on music came up and said something, I'm not going to pick based on nothing more than what they said, not who they are.

I don't think low of music. I simply don't think highly or lowly of myself or what I do. Being too judgmental about this stuff is just damaging and gets you nowhere.

And if someone comes and trashes my music, that's awesome. I caused that, and to me that's more important than who they are. If they can articulate, even better.

But a skilled artist knows where to look for and what to listen to. You can get the most awesome ideas out of someone who is talking out of their donkey. You can get the most useful perception out of someone who hated your music.

Depends on how you listen to things, and how you interpret what people tell you.

Oh, and I guess you haven't dealt with doctors or professionals messing up in their fields. If a member of your family was damaged beyond repair due to a doctor's mistake, would you think this is light as well?

As far as architects go, depends on the country, but it is expected of an architect to design things that A: stay up, and B: conform to safety rules and standards. Otherwise it won't get built, simple as that. It's like stylists designing cars that engineers can't work with.

It's simply a matter of practicality. In music there's room for every opinion, and no opinion about music is either right or wrong. The artist has to be clever and know what is useful to listen to and what isn't.

But always listening is always better, even if tiresome. It's a constant influx of ideas. If you're not listening and pushing people away then you're pushing possible ideas from reaching you, and perhaps different perspectives and such.

You don't take full notice at what I say and this discussion keeps being stered away from what we say:

1. Trashed... blah blah. What I ALSO said, was that it didn't make sense, which you forgot to mention. I don't mind listening to anyone, and any feedback, as long as it is "rather vaild", if you want. Someone coming to me "I only heard the first 3 minutes from the 13 minutes of the work and I didn't like it", sorry but it simply doesn't speak a lot to me.

2. Doctors and architects: My father is a doctor and my wife is an architect, I know very well what they do, what responsibilities etc. In fact what I always tell people who ask me how come I didn't turn out a doctor, is that I would never be able to stand the pressure of having SO much responsibility. BUT it's is JUST AN EXAMPLE!

Let's put things down for a minute:

YOU: You take anything anyone says, and listen to absolutely everyone! All opions on music are equal and this because it is music.

ME: I take feedback and anything anyone says, as long as they can prove that they do know what they're talking about. Even by what they're saying. There are experts, even in music.

You don't take full notice at what I say and this discussion keeps being stered away from what we say:

1. Trashed... blah blah. What I ALSO said, was that it didn't make sense, which you forgot to mention. I don't mind listening to anyone, and any feedback, as long as it is "rather vaild", if you want. Someone coming to me "I only heard the first 3 minutes from the 13 minutes of the work and I didn't like it", sorry but it simply doesn't speak a lot to me.

2. Doctors and architects: My father is a doctor and my wife is an architect, I know very well what they do, what responsibilities etc. In fact what I always tell people who ask me how come I didn't turn out a doctor, is that I would never be able to stand the pressure of having SO much responsibility. BUT it's is JUST AN EXAMPLE!

Let's put things down for a minute:

YOU: You take anything anyone says, and listen to absolutely everyone! All opions on music are equal and this because it is music.

ME: I take feedback and anything anyone says, as long as they can prove that they do know what they're talking about. Even by what they're saying. There are experts, even in music.

That's pretty much what I do, yes.

If someone told me they listened to only 3 minutes of something which lasts longer and stopped, that's saying a lot about their opinion of it right there. I could ask why the stopped. Or if they tell me, I could see if this information is helpful in maybe a future composition, or maybe if I can apply it to something else.

I don't consider myself an expert on anything at all. I may know a bunch of things here and there, but I hope to never be an expert and always a student if it means I start disregarding what people say based on arbitrary measures of who they are rather than what they're saying.

I don't consider myself an expert on anything at all. I may know a bunch of things here and there, but I hope to never be an expert and always a student if it means I start disregarding what people say based on arbitrary measures of who they are rather than what they're saying.

Just making sure that you noticed my saying: "...Even by what they're saying..." right?

Cause you are talking to me and you do insist on putting things in my mouth that I didn't say (by innuendos, not that you commented that I said anything).

Anyways, good night from me. I do have to work and go to sleep at some point. :) Since we agree on what you and I think, it's fine then I think! :D

^ I personally think music is one area where everyones opinion can be valid. The musical experts are the ones who know the theory - they still have pieces they like and pieces they hate. In the end, when all is said and done, when a piece of music is written and people are listenting to it it is all about their opinion so what they think of it is valid.

If someone says "I thought the strings were too loud at 1:28" that is a vaild opinion. They dont have to know anything about how you wrote that or what your reasoning was behind it. It is fair to listen to that opinion and take on bard whether you trhink it is useful.

Lets go to that medical example nikolas used. It's a completely different idea. People can only have a medical opinion if they know something about medicine, because medicine is not a field targeted at the masses. Music is. A patient who knows nothing about medicine cant come up and say "I think you should have administered the antibiotics sooner" because that is a question of medical fact rather than musical opinion.

I hope that made some sense. I know what I'm trying to say

Personally, I'd argue with an architect about architecture and with a doctor about medicine any time, at least if it somehow concerns me personally. If an architect was building a house for me I'd certainly object if he did something I don't like, and even if it's not my own house, I might argue about a house in my neighborhood that irritates me with an architect. And if it concerns the health of myself or a close relative, I certainly will not let a doctor "just do what he thinks is right". Yes, he's an expert, but there are still many medicinal decisions that aren't perfectly clear and to some degree quite personal. It's fine to respect experts, but blindly trusting them is often not wise.

It is true that somebody who has heard more music may understand more about the music and be able to hear more in it than an amateur. This can in some cases also have negative effects though, as "experts" with a vast knowledge of musical categories, techniques, styles, and other composers/compositions sometimes tend to put music in a certain category pretty quickly. Like "this is a minimalist piece" or "it sounds like Ligeti". Then, their prejudices about this style or musical connection may make a real judgement of the individual piece almost impossible. I'm sure we've all seen some of these newspaper critiques that seem to consist of a fix repertoire of terms that are repeated again and again.

Of course non-experts are prejudiced too, but those prejudices tend to be much more superficial, and often can't be upheld when you ask them to explain themselves in greater detail. You can sometimes "force" non-experts much more easily to talk about what they really heard and experienced in a piece.

Knowledge can be a two-edged sword. On one hand I've often experienced how I could enjoy a good piece more the more I knew about it and its techniques, as it allowed me to hear more into it and see more details while having an overview of it. On the other hand, I have more than once made the experience that knowing something turned a potentially musically interesting piece in something that I hated.

For example: A couple of years ago I decided to listen to some Sciarrino, as I had heard about him quite a bit, but never heard anything by him. Unfortunately, before listening to the CD I read the booklet, where there was an essay by himself. I don't remember what was written in there, but somehow I hated it and completely turned me off. I listened to the CD anyways, but I just couldn't appreciate it. I didn't know whether I really disliked the music, or whether it was just because of what I had read. The two things were melted together in my mind and I couldn't separate them. I have since then read and heard more Sciarrino but the feeling has stayed the same. I'm certainly no expert on Sciarrino, but I still feel I might actually like his music if I didn't know anything about it.

Anyways, my opinion is that the important thing is how an argument about music is founded, not by whom it is made. If a complete amateur can describe in detail what they heard in a piece, what they felt, what they liked, what they missed, and what they think was the reason for all this, I'm going to take it seriously. If an expert judges a piece but is unable to say what exactly makes this a good or bad piece, it holds no importance to me.

Anyways, my opinion is that the important thing is how an argument about music is founded, not by whom it is made. If a complete amateur can describe in detail what they heard in a piece, what they felt, what they liked, what they missed, and what they think was the reason for all this, I'm going to take it seriously. If an expert judges a piece but is unable to say what exactly makes this a good or bad piece, it holds no importance to me.

I agree completely here!

BTW, I think I know what caused the extra page really. The PhD comment, which was true (has happened), but if only you could hear what the guy was saying... brrr...

Anyways I said, since music has to do with aesthetics, everyone is entitled to their opinion really.