Major vs Minor

Actually re: sad/happy maj/min take a look/listen to this:

YouTube - Olivier Messiaen, "Louange à l'éternité de Jésus"

Most "chords" in there are major ones, to a ratio 5/1 or something, and there are only 4-5 chords that are neither.

I can't say that this music is really happy... ;)

Niko, while I totally agree with you that major does NOT necessarily mean "happy" (and vice versa), I'd point out that while the piano is playing major triads in the Messaien, the cello itself keeps hanging on to suspensions, added notes, and minor thirds to the harmony, which constantly imply minor mode to the listener, if not modal ambiguity.

The ear WILL remember the melody more so than the harmony beneath it.

Just thought I'd point that out.

(not addressed to Niko)

Besides, come on, anyone has to admit that music that is ALL "major" has GOT to be boring at some point? Why else would secondary themes and development sections in classical-era music so often use modal shifts? (ie: relative minor, modal transposition of material, etc..)

Just to add to this, from a slightly "technical" or theoretical point of view:

In music that is predominantly major-mode, adding a single chromatic passing note that implies minor mode, will have a profound impact on the general modal feel of the music. This is part of the reason many people have difficulty distinguishing modal music from actual minor-mode music.

All anything will get boring after a while.

Nick, I don't remember anyone in this thread saying that major is unequivocally happy, and minor sad - so why the wink smiley face?

Anyway, I don't get this negative view of being happy that many of you seem to have.

You don't have to try to be miserable - life will take care of that at some point..... which is where uplifting music helps.

QCC: indeed, that is correct. :) He is using the octatonic mode. ;)

Dan, you mentioned that it's a challenge to write something sad with major chords, or am I mistaken? :)

Well, I for one, am not an advocate of the "major=happy" school of music... I'm listening to the Berg violin concerto as I write this, and the opening movement is unequivocally "happy" music. This is most definately neither major nor minor music.

And just to add an important detail to the "minor=sad" thing, the final movement of the Berg violin concerto has a quote from a Bach choral in it that is basically in a major key, yet it is absolutely the saddest moment in this work of already profound tragedy.

Dan, you mentioned that it's a challenge to write something sad with major chords, or am I mistaken?

Sure, it's a challenge - certainly not impossible. My post was urging people NOT to think of major just as happy et vice versa.

My post was urging people NOT to think of major just as happy et vice versa.

I find some of the most broodingly dark pieces to be surprisingly uplifting and joyous. Stuff like this: Ornette Coleman - Lonely Woman

minor minor minor, all the way, i agree with kievins, i find major on the most part boring, it doesn't stir anything inside of me at all, i find it hard to sit and listen to it, my mind wanders to other things.

Sure, it's a challenge - certainly not impossible. My post was urging people NOT to think of major just as happy et vice versa.

radiohead - creep ; a very sad song, but its written in g major, and only uses c minor a few times, and thats hard to do!

I don't think of major keys as being "happy". I think of them as being "sweet".

That said, I like both of them. Without major keys, minor keys will not sound the same way as no contrast exists.

I don't think of major keys as being "happy". I think of them as being "sweet".

That said, I like both of them. Without major keys, minor keys will not sound the same way as no contrast exists.

Exactly: Major does not have to be happy and minor does not have to be sad. Examples: The Cavatina from Beethoven's Op 130 String Quartet in Bb is not a happy movement even though it is in Eb Major. Another example from the same piece: the Bb minor "Scherzo" second movement isn't really sad - it's a little mysterious and a little dance-like.

I think, based on some earlier posts that a few definitions/basic theory concepts need to be gone over.

Someone mentioned using minor chords in a major mode may help their composition.

If we are composing in strict C major, the notes of the C major scale are used in the harmony, so: C D E F G A B C

This means that the root position triads are:

CEG-major

DFA-minor

EGB-minor

GBD-Major

BDF-diminished

To avoid some confusion in regards to modes:

ionian, lydian, mixolydian are all major modes. Major refers to the relationship of the root positiion tonic triad. Ex. C ionian, C lydian, C mixolydian all have a root position tonic triad of CEG which is a major chord.

dorian, aeolian, phrygian are all minor. Again, when based on C, all would have a root position tonic triad of C Eb G-minor triad.

locrian-a diminished mode-root position tonic triad is C Eb Gb

This same rule will apply to any scale/mode of the scale. Someone mentioned the octatonic scale...This scale, and other more obscure scales (or possibly non obscure scales) are not necessarily harmonized strictly by the same scale. An octatonic scale is an alteration of half and whole steps with either coming first depending on the mode. Let us examine the half step first variety from C: C C# D# E F# G# A B C As you can see this is an 8 tone scale. If we were to harmonize with the scale itself, major and minor tonality can be accomplished. since E and Eb(D#) are available as the 3rd...However the fifth would have to be altered or omitted if an augmented triad is to be avoided. However, one composing with this scale likely is not interested in a standard major/minor harmony.

Tertian/Quartal/Quintal harmony...This refers to chord construction..we are used to chords by thirds...CEG, GBDF, etc...quartal harmony is chords by fourths: CFBb, DGCF, etc, and quintal by fifths..

Ok, sorry if this has been a burden, but I hope this has helped someone. If anyone feels that my post has errors let me know :-)

actually, you make a minor (no pun intended) error on the octatonic scale,

it is an alternation of minor and major 2nds:

C - Db - Eb - E natural - F# - G natural - A natural (and not G#, A# as you have) - Bb (and not B natural) - and return to C.

what you have listed has the lower tetrachord of a C natural octatonic scale, and the upper tetrachord of a C# octatonic scale. Your scale is, in effect an octatonic scale (having eight notes to it), however, it is not one of Messaien's "modes

oops..i did make a boo boo there...eeps...good catch!

I'm glad to see minor taking the cake, so far... major is for sissies. 8)

Naw, just joking. Both sides can really create a beautiful, sad or joyous work, as well as capturing the many emotions in between. I'm really partial to tunes in major that make a broad use of minor chords and explore how both scales can co-exist at the same time.

Deceptive cadence fan #1!

I'm partial to music with a variety of harmonies and textures

Major! Minor! ..... Atonal!

.....

Wait! Major! ... Minor! ... Atonal!

This question is too restrictive :P

I used to prefer minor keys, but now I realize that I can use major to enhance a minor part and vice versa. I don't actually think in terms of major or minor anymore, they both mix naturally.

It's like talking about tall and short. If "tall" doesn't exist, would it make any sense to talk about "short"??

Dorian, fools.

That's where it's at.

I prefer phrygian, but natural minor is close enough for this poll. Should have included the modes.

As .... umm... dh4m13l (whatever that means, no offense) said, they (major and minor) both mix naturally, and I used them together often, polychords and polyharmony. I'll play a minor harmonic structure under a more major tone series or motif, yet for some reason it doesn't work quite as well for me the other way around.

Originally written by Finrod

I just like the dark/mysterious side of things

The major key is more dark and mysterious when used properly, like Debussy knows how to in his La Mer. Most of anybody will say minor is very dark and mysterious, and that's not as true as saying major is very dark and mysterious.

Too much of this conversation I read tends to be too subtle for me, like child talk. Theory of the major and minor is not at all any of this "triad," and "key signature" and "technical" talk. If the pitch is right, you compose right. There is nothing apparent to discuss by this poll... Major vs Minor. I'm not going to throw in a whole bunch of random numbers and try to make it sound believable. All I am hearing so far is, oh this is cool, oh yea, and that is cool. Okay, agreed.

I prefer phrygian, but natural minor is close enough for this poll. Should have included the modes.

As .... umm... dh4m13l (whatever that means, no offense) said, they (major and minor) both mix naturally, and I used them together often, polychords and polyharmony. I'll play a minor harmonic structure under a more major tone series or motif, yet for some reason it doesn't work quite as well for me the other way around.

Hi! dh4m13l is just "daniel" with a different look... d4n13l... see? polychords? polyharmony? where's my harmony book...? :sadtears: I still have a loooooooooooooong way to go... did you upload any examples? any compositions of yours showing this.. poly whatever thing? :toothygrin:

lol.... well, not really, but I can show you to an exercise in the orchestration masterclass that has this stuff in it. This link should take you directly to post #110 where you can check it out: http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/orchestration-part-1-discussion-10363-6.html#post180943

If it doesn't take you to post #110, just find it in that thread.

Notice how odd the chords are and how the theme in the winds interweaves though the harmonic texture of the chords. Credit goes to Qccowboy for this little phrase, was a beast to harmonize, and then I found out that we weren't supposed to harmonize it in the first place. :w00t:

Minor for me, although i have no problem with atonal and major.

But i just love darker and melancholic stuff so minor naturally is my favorite.

Anyway, I think we'd agreed that minor doesn't mean darker, and major doesn't mean happier...