Major vs Minor

Major is easiest because it's totally natural. Minor isn't a natural quality, what you hear is both the flattened third and major third at once and it produces a different quality. Major should be easier to write in but it wouldn't make that much of a difference.

...what you hear is both the flattened third and major third at once and it produces a different quality. ...

What?

I assume he's talking about the fact that a minor chord contains an interval of a minor third (between tonic and mediant) and an interval of a major third (between mediant and dominant). What he overlooks is the fact that the major chord also has these intervals, with a major third between tonic and mediant and and a minor third between mediant and dominant. Personally, I do not think that this is the best way to analyze the situation.

Anyway, I think we'd agreed that minor doesn't mean darker, and major doesn't mean happier...

Sure it doesn't, i was talking in general...

I assume he's talking about the fact that a minor chord contains an interval of a minor third (between tonic and mediant) and an interval of a major third (between mediant and dominant). What he overlooks is the fact that the major chord also has these intervals, with a major third between tonic and mediant and and a minor third between mediant and dominant. Personally, I do not think that this is the best way to analyze the situation.

I thought he meant the major third in the overtone series (5th partial tone). So when a C minor chord is played you don't only hear an E-flat, but also the E two octaves higher. Major is much closer to the harmonic series than minor, so you could call it more "natural". I'm not entirely sure why it would be easier to compose in a more natural mode though.

I like to use all three. In fact, the song I'm working on right now contains all three.

The fact is, all three types need to be used in certain situations. It's bad idea to get stuck using only one type.

It's bad idea to get stuck using only one type.

i totally agree. some of the most dramatic parts of music occur when the music undergoes a transition from major to minor or vice versa.

i totally agree. some of the most dramatic parts of music occur when the music undergoes a transition from major to minor or vice versa."]i totally agree. some of the most dramatic parts of music occur when the music undergoes a transition from major to minor or vice versa.

Agreed. To also be noted, major and minor are very similar keys despite some theorists referring to them as opposites. I wouldn't generally prefer one over the other because they're so interchangeable. Keys of the greatest counterpoint can always inverse to majors or minors. This is why harmonic experimentation has been widely appreciated for centuries.

Agreed. To also be noted, major and minor are very similar keys despite some theorists referring to them as opposites. I wouldn't generally prefer one over the other because they're so interchangeable. Keys of the greatest counterpoint can always inverse to majors or minors. This is why harmonic experimentation has been widely appreciated for centuries.

Hehehe, I'd laugh a "theorist" out of the classroom if he told me that "major and minor are opposites"! Where on earth did you hear such a silly notion? I'd love to know who proposes such a view of modality?

I prefer minor at the momen, but I'm still a n00b stuck in the stone ages of purely tonal music, so my tastes might change. :P

Hehehe, I'd laugh a "theorist" out of the classroom if he told me that "major and minor are opposites"! Where on earth did you hear such a silly notion? I'd love to know who proposes such a view of modality?

Ha ha... let's see. No one I'm related too unfortunately (kidding). But seriously, no one I'm related too. I know of a man named Edvard Green who frowns upon Chopin and degrades his music. He says things like major and minor are opposites. He ponders about completely unrealistic things in music's history. He is respected by some. I've also heard the same remark by a few talented friends of mine. I therefore came to the conclusion that there are some, respectably more theorists who believe major and minor are opposites of one another.

Well, there is very little to support the statement that major and minor are "opposites". If they are, what then are the other modes? Major and minor modes share too much to be considered "opposite".

It's a patently stupid thing to say.

It's as pointless and defenceless as saying "this chord is atonal" (which sadly, someone who should have known better, once said to me).

The very definition of "opposite" interdicts its use in the context of any discussion regarding modes.

Maybe they mean opposite as in they are normally used to convey very definite moods when used strictly. I mean, you've never hear a happy song in a minor key, right? If you just listen, minor can convey almost anything, but not happiness. And with major, if you use it on a very basic level, it is just the opposite, it is more likely to convey happiness than any other mood unless you do something more sophisticated to it musically. I think that's what this whole 'opposites' view is getting at... the tendency for one to be happy, and the other to be sad most of the time. NOT by any means to say that either of these are the only possibilities and other modes mean nothing or that these 'tendencies' can't be broken, then CAN easily be broken, but I think the basic sad vs. happy in a very general sense is the concept that is usually subject to this scrutiny.

Play a major scale or chord for a random person.... they call it a happy sound.

Play a natural minor scale or chord... they will probably call it sad or angry.

So, if I were to compare all the modes, dorian, phrygian, and aeolian I would call sad. Ionian, lydian and mixolydian I would call happy. Sad and/or angry opposes happy and/or content , simply put, the fact that they are specific modes and scales doesn't matter. Locrian.... I really have no idea what that makes me think of... it's the oddball to me.

It's the simple way of thinking about it.... ignoring all the complexities that composers put in order to make use of these scales. Just pure scale and it's direct impact to the common listener.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I notice that provided that the fifth degree of a scale is a perfect fifth, then the 3rd degree defines this overall mood in one of two ways: happier (major third), or more sad (minor third). Locrian doesn't have a perfect fifth on the fifth degree, so that's why I have a hard time identifying with it in the first place.

Minor is easier to work with. I find it really hard to keep the interest with major piece.

Play a major scale or chord for a random person.... they call it a happy sound.

Play a natural minor scale or chord... they will probably call it sad or angry.

So, if I were to compare all the modes, dorian, phrygian, and aeolian I would call sad. Ionian, lydian and mixolydian I would call happy.

This is merely cultural though. You only perceive dorian, phrygian and aeolian as one group, and ionian, lydian and mixolydian as the others, because their fundamental triads are the same, and because we are used to differentiate between scales mainly based on their thirds (as this is the clearest difference between minor and major).

In other cultures, with different harmonic and melodic background this would very likely perceived differently. Aristotle called mixolydian a sad mode for example, and phrygian an enthusiastic one. And I'm sure that someone growing up with, say, traditional Indian music without contact to occidental culture (which is of course rare nowadays) wouldn't classify our modes the same way we commonly do.

Assigning emotional meaning to modes is entirely cultural (and personal).

It's as pointless and defenceless as saying "this chord is atonal" (which sadly, someone who should have known better, once said to me).

This person must have been extremely tired in order to say something obsurd like that. Composers especially need their sleep.

Now if we look at this agrument in a completely chordal scale, in some positions a major harmony being placed instead of a minor harmony can bring about a completely opposite affect or turn-a-round to the musical piece. But as I said, this viewpoint is "in a completely chordal scale." For professional composers, this affect requires more than "a completely chordal scale:" just about anything you can do musically. I've heard much notion of happiness with little effort by tonal instruments, and most effort by percussion, but it definitely can be an essential thought to conduct your harmonies without embelishment in drastic moments (sort of a reverse affect). Note: I write drastic moments, and by this I don't necessarily mean 'in music,' but drastic moments 'in the composers experimentations.'

You must mean something with your music, unless it is absolute. You cannot just expect to write a minor chord to be portrayed as sad or dark because its a simple 3 noted minor chord. You have to conduct each individual note to what you feel sends a varified message.

You must mean something with your music, unless it is absolute. You cannot just expect to write a minor chord to be portrayed as sad or dark because its a simple 3 noted minor chord. You have to conduct each individual note to what you feel sends a varified message.

You just said something about one of the topics I'm currently interested in researching about, emotion and music. There are some interesting books in amazon.com. Do you know of any really a must-read? Can you point me somewhere? I'd like to know where is a good place to start.

By "absolute" do you mean music that doesn't mean anything or doesn't transmit any feelings? Do you think there's something such as music that doesn't transmit any feelings?

Daniel

I believe music is something you can take apart, like anything there is. Its made up of emotion. If you try to take emotion out of music, well there will still be some emotion left to it. You can't easily take everything away from a piece. But there is music I believe to be almost "absolute." I don't believe there is music that doesn't transmit any feelings, and if there was, I would not be interested in it. I have feelings for everything I hear. Emptiness can also be a feeling. Iritation is a feeling for music I try not to listen to.

As far as reading books on this idea, I really don't know of anything that covers this topic. But I would enjoy reading one.