Very young composer, Mom needs advice

I was reading this forum to decide whether or not to let my daughter on it. She is 11 and started composing piano music when she was 8. She has competed in a few local and state original composition contests, mostly for piano music, but recently has composed some small ensemble pieces for flute and classical guitar. She is currently trying to write popular style Christmas songs.

The reason I'm posting is that the review of her most recent classical-style contest pieces had some specific suggestions that I don't really understand, so I can't help her interpret them. He really liked her pieces, but his suggestions are beyond my knowledge, so I haven't been able to interpret them for her. Maybe someone can point me to some resources, books or lessons on melody and harmony, cadences, chord progressions, or other areas of theory that would be helpful.

I can play several instruments, but I never composed or arranged anything. I've got high school level piano music theory. This is some of what he said about her Sonatina:

- "In Mvt I, I felt that some of your pitch choices for melodies and chords could have been more carefully chosen. I like that you went for a chromatic feel with lots of half step accidentals, just be careful how you use them so that the audience can still follow where you are trying to lead them."

- "...staying in one harmonic are for that long can make it hard for the audience to notice that you've made any variations, even when you did."

- He rated her piece Superior.

This is some of what he said about her flute and guitar ensemble piece:

- "I wish that you would have developed more melodies and especially more harmonies."

- "You use the same two basic chords as the background for the entire piece. I would challenge you to explore developing the harmony more ...

- "You can still create a cohesive piece, but going further would increase interest and audience enjoyment."

- He rated her piece Excellent.

Then he made this comment about her composing skills in general:

- "I think that you need to make expanding your harmonic vocabulary your main goal - your melodies are too good to be limited by a small collection of pitch to surround them with."

- This comment seems very helpful, but I don't undertstand it well enough to give her a few examples to illustrate his point. If I could do that then she would really really understand it too.

Maybe some of you that know more about composing and theory can help me to interpret these comments. For example, I don't know how to even tell what "basic chord" is in the background, and what it would sound like to vary that, and what chords to use to vary the sound. Right now, I can't show my daughter examples or anything like that to illustrate his comments. If I could, then she would take that knowledge and apply it to her own creativity. Even if she never really understands these comments, she'll continue to enjoy composing, but she is so bright that if I can help her to get what he's saying, she'll run with it.

Thanks!

Well, congratulations on your daughter!

Is there any chance that we could see or hear these pieces? If we knew the pieces we could try interpreting the review.

Generally there are two ways of learning about harmony and harmonizing melodies. Either learn the theory, or try out lots of different things (on the piano, for example) and experience what works, and what doesn't. Personally I'd lean towards the latter, especially for someone so young. She could, for example, take one of her melodies and try to create a series of different accompaniments to it, then see which ones she likes best, and which ones sound the most interesting/rich/varied.

I've found that experimenting like that will give you a very direct experience of how harmony works.

Thanks, so she should play the melody several times and each time put different chords with it to see what it sounds like? Are these cadences or chords in different keys? Sorry, I don't even know the right words to use!

Basically, she wrote a 3 movement Sonatina. Each movement has maybe 2 different melody ideas or themes. She repeats the same thing too many times without varying the themes with different sounds. That's what the reviewer was getting at basically I think. If she could experiment with different ways of harmonizing, then when she repeats the same 8 measures, for example, it would sound different enough to be more interesting.

Thanks. I will help her to experiment. Maybe she'll hit on something that she can use in her next round of pieces.

I would say that 11 is a very young age to have unfettered access to a site such as this with open discussion, though I do understand wanting to help your daughter advance! I would first recommend a private teacher (perhaps from a local high school or college). Second, I would recommend you acting as a liaison if you do in fact pursue much of the online composition communities, as artists tend not to filter their thoughts in a child-friendly manner.

I wish my mother were as encouraging as you! Enjoy the next few years! :-)

- "In Mvt I, I felt that some of your pitch choices for melodies and chords could have been more carefully chosen. I like that you went for a chromatic feel with lots of half step accidentals, just be careful how you use them so that the audience can still follow where you are trying to lead them."

This means that the the chromatics does not follow a logical progression.

For example, if you are playing a piece in one key but using distant notes in a non stylistic fashion then it tends to sound strange.

Chromatics tend to have very specific ways in which they are used.

For example, if you are in the key of C maj you usually do not use C#. But you can(and in fact I like it) but because it is such a distinct tone in that key you cannot just use it willy nilly.

There are several ways for it to come about. If it is part of a harmony that uses it, such as Amaj7, which is not directly in Cmaj but could be a secondary dominant of Dmin. Or it could be simply a NHT(non-harmonic tone) that sorta "filles" in the gap between C and D.

One thing to note is that if you use C# in the key of C then it will tend to resolve to D. If it resolves down then its actually a Db. These notes are not the same(they sound the same but have different functions). Of course its not always the case but in general raised notes tend to resolve upwards and lowered notes tend to resolve downward.

So if you have C Db D then it is probably wrong as it should be notated C C# D. (in fact one can hear the different because if we heard the note moving upward we will think of it as raised. This is just not some abstract idea either. Db is actually distinct from C# on instruments that are not fixed in pitch. (like a violin for example)

So if you ask a good violinist to play C C# D and C Db D they should play two different things. (of course they will sound very similar but you will be able to tell the difference in a controlled case)

I'm assuming that the style is common practice period(romantic, classical, baroque, etc...) and not stuff like serialism, atonality, etc...

Most chromatics in classical music come from harmonic choices rather than melodic. If you use chromatics in your melody and do not use the proper harmony to go with it then it will probably not work well. (depends on effect of course but I'm speaking in general terms)

Also if you use to many chromatics you tend to destabilize the tonic unless you established it really well. It would be like making every other note C# in a Cmaj piece and never playing C in the melody.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that tonal melodies have specific contexts they setup. Not all melodies are tonal melodies(think of serialism. Of course all melodies are tonal melodies but its a matter of degree).

Its very bad to put in chromatics just to do it. They should be a natural consequence of the a well formed tonal melody if the goal is a tonal melody. If not then your starting with a shaky foundation and chances are it will only get worse.

- "...staying in one harmonic are for that long can make it hard for the audience to notice that you've made any variations, even when you did."

Not quite sure. I guess he means staying in one harmony. Not sure how long it is but There are some pieces that stay on the same chord for hundreds of measures so its not necessarily a bad thing. Usually when you have a static harmony for a long period of time it is hard to generate enough variation to make it interesting(it becomes monotone after a while unless you really know what your doing).

Sometimes this is good because with a static harmony you can develop the melody more and use more things like chromatics(because then its obvious that they are not harmonic).

This is some of what he said about her flute and guitar ensemble piece:

- "I wish that you would have developed more melodies and especially more harmonies."

- "You use the same two basic chords as the background for the entire piece. I would challenge you to explore developing the harmony more ...

- "You can still create a cohesive piece, but going further would increase interest and audience enjoyment."

Using two chords can become quite monotone. But realize almost everything resolve around just two chords. The I and V. Everything else is sorta an "embellishment" of that. There are two regions in music. The tonic and dominant. Coda's tend to be just the tonic and dominant chords alternating for quite some time(specially with Beethoven).

So its not necessarily bad. The problem is that it gives very little variety. There are thousands of chords to choose from so there shouldn't really be any excuse. If your daughter doesn't know any more chords or has trouble with them then it is something to work on. But also understand that its not necessarily bad because if you can make something sound good with just 2 chord then you'll make something great with 3. (probably ;)

Then he made this comment about her composing skills in general:

- "I think that you need to make expanding your harmonic vocabulary your main goal - your melodies are too good to be limited by a small collection of pitch to surround them with."

Get your daughter to learn to use more chords. In C maj one has at least the following:

Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin, Bdim. When you add the 7ths you get more. Cmaj7, Dmin7, etc...

You can even use secondary dominants such as A7, E7, C7, etc... and Other chords such as augmented 6th chords, etc..

But be careful. Its not good to use these chords just to use them. Without a strong fundamental understanding of tonality they will sound out of place.

But in fact you can use any chord in any key if it sounds good. Its really all up to the "ears".

- This comment seems very helpful, but I don't undertstand it well enough to give her a few examples to illustrate his point. If I could do that then she would really really understand it too.

Maybe some of you that know more about composing and theory can help me to interpret these comments. For example, I don't know how to even tell what "basic chord" is in the background, and what it would sound like to vary that, and what chords to use to vary the sound. Right now, I can't show my daughter examples or anything like that to illustrate his comments. If I could, then she would take that knowledge and apply it to her own creativity. Even if she never really understands these comments, she'll continue to enjoy composing, but she is so bright that if I can help her to get what he's saying, she'll run with it.

It sounds like she is at the basics level but has not been taught some of the more advanced stuff to get her going. Most likely she will learn many of these things on her own but that will take time. If you can speed it up by getting her a good teacher.

Hopefully she knows how to play an instrument. My suggesting is the piano. If she doesn't know how to play the piano and loves to compose then I believe she is missing out. The piano is a very logical instrument and one can express a full harmonic spectrum. When you learn theory you need some way to test it out and play around with the ideas. The piano, IMO, is the best tool for this. Guitar(and similar instruments) is to limited(although IMO its more expressive for melodic lines but harmonically its very difficult compared to a piano). Things like the flute and trumpet have no harmonic capabilities. That is, they cannot express a harmony.

You could also post some of her works here and people will comment. I wouldn't worry to much about pushing her to hard. If she has the interest and since she is young you just need to build a solid foundation. Starting her out on the piano is, IMO, probably the most important step. If she doesn't like it then try to convince her that it is very important and most of the great composers were also great pianists. Of course don't force her. By playing other's pieces she'll pick up on new ideas and also be able to express her own ideas quickly on the piano.

There is a lot of things to learn in music. She seems to have some natural ability but from what I get she hasn't been given the opportunity to get past the basics. But strong basics are very important so don't worry to much at this point.

From what little I know I can only make some guesses on what to do. Its totally up to you and I suggest you ask more questions and get more help from others too.

1. Piano lessons from a well rounded pianist. You want someone that knows theory but also has a desire to teach(and is not just doing it for the money).

2. Start on basic music theory. (which is really like learning a language)

She should get this in piano lessons but you want it from a composers perspective. You could get a few books and just go over them with her taking as much time as needed. You might be able to find someone for her to study under too. Its probably best though for her to get the basics on her own so he she has a better chance of getting a better teacher. Its not always a good idea to learn things on your own because you might learn something wrong but it probably won't be an issue here.

She really needs to know what a chord is, a scale, harmonizations of scales, Intervals, progressions, cadences, phrases, articulations, etc... These are pretty basic(I've left a lot of stuff out). They are not complicated things and I think she has plenty of time to get them down. You might set some type of goals for her(or have her set them herself).

In any case I'll stop writing a book now. Just trying to help as much as possible so you get all your questions answered to some degree.

Thanks, so she should play the melody several times and each time put different chords with it to see what it sounds like? Are these cadences or chords in different keys? Sorry, I don't even know the right words to use!

Basically, she wrote a 3 movement Sonatina. Each movement has maybe 2 different melody ideas or themes. She repeats the same thing too many times without varying the themes with different sounds. That's what the reviewer was getting at basically I think. If she could experiment with different ways of harmonizing, then when she repeats the same 8 measures, for example, it would sound different enough to be more interesting.

Where did she learn to write such a form? Does she know other forms?

A Sonatina is a compound form that consists of a multiple part forms. So hopefully she understands simple forms.

Normally you write a melody and use techniques to develop the melody . There are many techniques for that. You can reharmonize the melody, make basic unessential modifications(which would essentially be a repeat) or make other more essential modifications.

For example, Beethoven's 5th symphony is basically a very short motive that is endlessly varied in different ways. At the intro it is played and sequenced. Then it is bounced around the various stringed instruments and modified to fit the harmony. As it is doing this the melody becomes modified in various forms and then they are modified. Sometimes its inverted, sometimes its lengthened, sometimes its cut short, and sometimes notes are added.

These modifications give a sense of development and growth. One can do this with harmony too. But there has to be some sense of growth and some sense of unity. (generally called variety and unity)

To much unity and it becomes monotone or simplistic. To much variety and it becomes illogical or incomprehensible.

Make sure she can write simple pieces that are very good before trying to try a complex piece. Writing a large piece is not necessarily a good thing if you can't write a small piece. And large pieces are simple smaller pieces put together(well, for the most part). (really the larger pieces grew out of the smaller ones)

Thanks. I will help her to experiment. Maybe she'll hit on something that she can use in her next round of pieces.

I think you need to try and start small first. It sounds as if she's trying to write too large of a piece.

I "wrote" a piece a few days ago for someone that had a similar question. Actually he wrote a piece and I tried to modify it so it was more interesting and could be developed more.

The thread is at,

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/continuation-pieces-problem-11947-2.html

and the pdf and mp3(which is really a midi recording) are at

SomeIdea.mp3

SomeIdea.pdf

Now this isn't really a developed piece(actually its not a piece but was just an "example"). You can read the thread for more info on it.

What I'm trying to point out here is that all I did was take a basic idea that he gave me and embellish it. You might hear the 2nd period(its a double period) as being a "development" but in reality is just a repeat of the first idea. (its not exact but everything that was changed was unessential modifications) The harmony is exactly the same and the melodic structure was not changed.

So in this sense all I did was a very "basic" modification but it is effective to some degree. In a short "piece"(remember its just an example) like this it's a lot but in larger pieces you have to do more development than that.

(one could write a whole book on all the techniques composers use and I suppose one could spend a life time perfecting them)

Thanks. I am going re-read your post many times to absorbe it all, and maybe read a few books and analyze some music. She really enjoys composing and sets her own goals for contests and just loves to create pieces to share with us, so there's no issue of pushing her. I think her love of composing is actually pushing me to learn more!

She plays piano and flute, experiments with other things laying around the house like guitars, a pan flute, drums, etc. She has an excellent piano teacher. Maybe I should ask her teacher for a few extra lessons that are focused on chords, cadences, harmonies, progressions. But too much focus on composing does take away from learning the classical piano repetoire, so her teacher is helpful and supportive, but wants to balance put her lessons.

Her ear and imagination are far beyond her techincal/theory/music knowledge so she gets frustrated when she thinks something is just not the way she wants it, but she doesn't know why or how to make it the way she wants it. So I thought if I could learn more about chords, progressions, harmonies and cadences, I could give some guidance. I'm enjoying watching this creative process because I never saw anything like this up close before.

Thanks for writing all that. I'll be reading it over and over til it sinks in!

I forgot to ask in my last post -- I have been reading and re-reading all these comments and the comments from my daughter's judge, and basically the comments are beyond my knowledge of music, so I am wanting to learn more about chords, cadences, progressions, harmonies, etc. I don't even know what the words "chromatic" or "harmonic" mean. I'm a voracious reader and researcher of any topic that interests me, so having a new topic to read and learn about will be a joy for me. Can you suggest a few lesson books, especially theory books with exercises that are useful to young composers who need to learn theory, even historical works about composers and composing techniques over the centuries, would be interesting. Then if she asks me why she can't get such-and-such section to sound the way she hears it in her head, maybe I can give her some guidance and explain why it works that way.

Then if she asks me why she can't get such-and-such section to sound the way she hears it in her head, maybe I can give her some guidance and explain why it works that way.

In my non-professional opinion, thats not too good an idea. A good teacher that knows the craft of composition is needed. Theorists shouldn't teach composers. Most composers understand the importance of theory, and also realize how frustrating it can be for the budding composers (having once been at that stage themselves)..

PS: Unless she's a toughie (one of our current members joined at age 12), I wouldn't recommend letting her on here. :laugh:

Yeah, Don't worry about it to much. I think if she is really interested then she probably has a great start.

Realize that the majority of "music theory" is really just "vocabulary" so people can communicate about musical concepts efficiently. Its similar to mathematics in that respect. The theory is not like a scientific theory in that its not there to explain but only describe(this isn't entirely true but close)

Since you are interested in learning yourself you can find many resources online(Such as this site ;). There are also some very good theory books. There are basic theory books that sorta gloss over all the details but might be a good as an introduction. Then there are intermediate theory books like Walter Piston's Harmony. I say these are intermediate in that they are not extremely theoretical(like "structural functions in music" which is just absurdly theoretical).

There are several other books too. If you have a university near by you might hop on over and see what there using and maybe even open them up and see how much you can grasp. (remember though its really just like learning a new language... theres very little theory going on in these books)

Kostka and Payne is another decent book.

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Here are a few "definitions" to get you on your way until then.

Key - A Hierarchy of notes where one is "king"(called the tonic). e.g., Cmaj, Amaj. (Technically they both consist of the same 12 notes but in the first C is the tonic and the second is A with the other notes playing different roles)

Diatonic - Means it consists of one of the fundamental notes or harmony of the key or mode. In Cmaj the diatonic notes are C D E F G A B. One usually says these are the notes of Cmaj but don't forget that C#/Db, D#/Eb, etc.. are also part of the key of Cmaj. (but they are not "diatonic" to Cmaj)

Chromatic - These are the non-diatonic notes. i.e., your C#/Db, D#/Eb, etc in the key of Cmaj. Although it really depends on context. C# might not be chromatic if there was a modulation(a temporary change of tonic)

Harmony - The "chords" that are used or the implied chords. You play the notes C E G you get a Cmaj harmony. A Harmonic progression is a series of chords or harmonies that progress towards some goal(which is the cadence). You can have diatonic harmonies or chromatic. Diatonic harmonies in Cmaj would be chords that use the diatonic notes of the Cmaj key. Chromatic would be the other ones.

Cadence - A rhythmic, melody, and/or harmonic "pause" that signals some sort of repose in the flow and ending of a music idea. There are different degree's and in some cases it can be very subtle.

Phrase - A phrase is a musical idea that usually ends in some type of cadence. Just like a sentence ending with a period.

Period - Usually two phrases in a question and answer arrangement.

Form - Some type of structure of phrases into some logical fashion.

(I didn't define these in a technical way but it should give you some idea what those terms mean)

In any case you should be able to find plenty of resources and if you have any questions then I'm sure no one will mind.

One thing I forgot to mention was ear training. This is probably the most important but should be studied side by side with theory. One needs to be able to associate the ideas one heres with names to communicate them better to others and self analyze.

Wait, an 11 year old girl on YC?

She'll be corrupted for life :D

As in, non-musically.

It's true... most of my loss of innocence came when I joined this forum at 12. However, I must say that the mother can control where the child goes.. i.e. NOT in Off Topic. I mean, everything else is reasonably censored. Occasionally, things get through to the forums themselves, but if she is only interested in music, then the rest of the forums will be sufficient.

Besides, we ALL want to help budding composers grow!!

Just make sure that your kid does not grow up too fast. A child needs childhood.

*shakes fist at his parents* :angry:

*shakes fist at his parents* :angry:

Who's parents?