I hate pop music

YouTube - Don't talk (put your head on my shoulder) - The Beach Boys

one of Mr. Wilson's many gems

and feel like adding another from Pet Sounds

mind you he received much praise from Leonard Bernstein

As I expected, those youtube examples of supposedly good pop music did not impress me at all...

True, Brian Wilson is slightly more talented than most pop songwriters and he does seem to show an original harmonic and melodic language within the conventions of the pop song format. I also think Paranoid Android is definitely one of the better and more creative pop songs out there. But the other examples really didn't have very much musical substance. They struck me as typical, uninteresting and conventional pop songs.

Come on, you would be seriously (and painfully naively) fooling yourself to believe that that kind of pop music has the same artistic merit and depth as this music:

YouTube - St.Matthew passion bwv 244 conducted by gustav leonhardt

or this: YouTube - Beethoven Symphony No.9 - Bernstein 1989 (part 1)

or this: YouTube - STRAVINSKY : Rite Of Spring - (V.Gergiev) '07 (1/2)

Look,

Honestly.

This thread is BORING! It's no use trying to persuade anyone with what you think are arguments! Same wise there's no way to even come close to persuading you to take a different stance about things.

So, you go on blaming pop/rock/everything about the decline of contemporary music and close your ears to the miracles of pop/rock/jazz and the rest of us will continue to be completely spoilt brats that do enjoy the occasional pop and feel that the problem with contemporary music lies elsewhere...

How do you feel about this then?

As I expected, those youtube examples of supposedly good pop music did not impress me at all...

True, Brian Wilson is slightly more talented than most pop songwriters and he does seem to show an original harmonic and melodic language within the conventions of the pop song format. I also think Paranoid Android is definitely one of the better and more creative pop songs out there. But the other examples really didn't have very much musical substance. They struck me as typical, uninteresting and conventional pop songs.

Come on, you would be seriously (and painfully naively) fooling yourself to believe that that kind of pop music has the same artistic merit and depth as this music:

YouTube - St.Matthew passion bwv 244 conducted by gustav leonhardt

or this: YouTube - Beethoven Symphony No.9 - Bernstein 1989 (part 1)

or this: YouTube - STRAVINSKY : Rite Of Spring - (V.Gergiev) '07 (1/2)

The same depth, maybe not. Artistic merit, absolutely. Many emotions are conveyed through pop music. I would know, I've written in the pop genres. There is nothing wrong with not liking pop music. But it does have artistic merit.

You guys obviously don't listen to Steely Dan.:whistling:

Go youtube 'em. Check out "Peg" or "Jack of Speed" or "Godwhacker" or "Josie" or "Hey Nineteen" or "Kid Charlemagne."

It's pop for smart people. That's what you guys are, right? Smart people?

THAT's good pop, and you can only argue that by saying "it's not pop at all," in which case I'd reply with "That's what she said."

~Kal

You guys obviously don't listen to Steely Dan.:whistling:

The album Aja could be considered a masterclass in advanced pop music harmony...Gaucho is deeply complex too, as well as Fagen's The Nightfly

Steely Dan is jazz, basically...

As I expected, those youtube examples of supposedly good pop music did not impress me at all...

True, Brian Wilson is slightly more talented than most pop songwriters and he does seem to show an original harmonic and melodic language within the conventions of the pop song format. I also think Paranoid Android is definitely one of the better and more creative pop songs out there. But the other examples really didn't have very much musical substance. They struck me as typical, uninteresting and conventional pop songs.

Come on, you would be seriously (and painfully naively) fooling yourself to believe that that kind of pop music has the same artistic merit and depth as this music:

YouTube - St.Matthew passion bwv 244 conducted by gustav leonhardt

or this: YouTube - Beethoven Symphony No.9 - Bernstein 1989 (part 1)

or this: YouTube - STRAVINSKY : Rite Of Spring - (V.Gergiev) '07 (1/2)

Don't you just listen to music for the sheer enjoyment of hearing it? Please don't tell me you're one of those people who needs to analyze everything they are. I feel sorry for you.

YouTube - Chicago - Sufjan Stevens

no?

YouTube - Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel - The Sounds of Silence Lyrics

no?

YouTube - Red Hot Chili Peppers - Venice Queen

no?

Don't you just listen to music for the sheer enjoyment of hearing it? Please don't tell me you're one of those people who needs to analyze everything they are. I feel sorry for you.

It's not that I feel a conscious need to analyze all music I listen to, it just happens automatically. Whether I enjoy music depends on whether I hear any musical substance in it. Why do I enjoy music? Because it can give me this wonderful, profound, deeply emotional and intellectual experience I can't get out of anything else. Pop music, however, definitely isn't able to give me this deep experience because of its meager musical substance; because it's so impoverished (melodically, harmonically, rhythmically, structurally), because it's so superficial, unimaginative, undemanding, predictable, full of clich

Here, I'll fix your statement for you:

Why do I enjoy music? Because it can give me this wonderful, profound, deeply emotional and intellectual experience I can't get out of anything else. Pop music, however, definitely isn't able to give me this deep experience because of its [alleged] meager musical substance; because it's so impoverished [to my ears] (melodically, harmonically, rhythmically, structurally), because [as I see it] it's so superficial, unimaginative, undemanding, predictable, full of clich

Eh, he's entitled to his opinion

Eh, he's entitled to his opinion

Exactly. So I amended it to read like his opinion. ;)

It's not that I feel a conscious need to analyze all music I listen to, it just happens automatically. Whether I enjoy music depends on whether I hear any musical substance in it. Why do I enjoy music? Because it can give me this wonderful, profound, deeply emotional and intellectual experience I can't get out of anything else. Pop music, however, definitely isn't able to give me this deep experience because of its meager musical substance; because it's so impoverished (melodically, harmonically, rhythmically, structurally), because it's so superficial, unimaginative, undemanding, predictable, full of clich

It's not that I feel a conscious need to analyze all music I listen to, it just happens automatically. Whether I enjoy music depends on whether I hear any musical substance in it. Why do I enjoy music? Because it can give me this wonderful, profound, deeply emotional and intellectual experience I can't get out of anything else. Pop music, however, definitely isn't able to give me this deep experience because of its meager musical substance; because it's so impoverished (melodically, harmonically, rhythmically, structurally), because it's so superficial, unimaginative, undemanding, predictable, full of clich

This is fairly belated entry to this discussion so I am probably just rehashing another contribution. However all music should aspire to the status of pop music. The problem in classical music is that it has ceased to be a popular music. Brahms made no money from his symphonies or piano concertos but lots of money from his Hungarian Dances and Liebeslieder waltzes. The reality of most famous classical composers( Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Brahms, Dvorak, Chopin, various Strausses, etc.) is that they made a living from writing music and it was usually the popular forms (Magic Flute, Cantatas on well known tunes, Der Rosenkavalier, various songs and short pieces) that made them the money. The ideas that the two types of music , popular and classical, are at odds is a notion that has only developed as classical composers have lost touch with what audiences wish to listen to and are unable to relate to the society in which they live.

...as classical composers have lost touch with what audiences wish to listen to and are unable to relate to the society in which they live.

Hit the nail on the head. It's all good and well to write symphonic masterpieces, but essentially the public want a melody. If you can write a complicated piece, that's all well and good, but the general public will not give it the time and day unless it has a good melody. This is the main reason why Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner etc, gained popularity, they were brilliant melodists. Historically, the melody is the key to a successful piece of music, and still is. If you can combine a fantastic melody with interesting harmony, and all the other hallmarks of a competent piece of music, you are on to a winner. A non melodic piece will not be appreciated by the man on the street.

With regards to the original poster, I am shocked that he has received so many negative comments about his views. I'm afraid that pop music has become over-saturated with superficial, artificial, nonsense, and it IS everywhere. Not only is this negatively affecting the music that gets played on the radio, the steets, everywhere you bloody go, but also the music that accompanies TV drama's and films. It's sometimes hard to escape it. I'm a composer, and as such I like to be free to have my own musical thoughts without being bombarded by puerile, invasive, mediocrity.

Now there are of course some exceptional 'pop' artists, such as Matt Bellamy and many more over the years, who clearly could write interesting and emotionally charged music (although pop music can never supercede an orchestra). However, the overall pop industry is simply a commercial machine, churning out the same old clich

I personally don't think Beethoven was a "brilliant melodist" (he might have been if he had wanted to, of course). Just think of his probably most popular piece, the fifth symphony. Can you actually call this hammering theme a "melody"? It is a rhythmic-intervallic motivic cell out of which a whole piece is built. It's concise, but it's not really a singable melody, like in a Mozart, Schubert, or Mendelssohn piece.

Beethoven sometimes even appears extremely "anti-melodic" to me.

To further to what Gardener said about Beethoven. Think of many other pieces Beethoven wrote:

Moonlight sonata: Arpegge

Appasionata: Arpegge

9th symphony (ode to joy): scale

etc...

This is what I love about Beethoven, he could take the most "redundant" melody and turn it into a 20 minute masterpiece!

_________________

hi alex, Nikolas from vi here! ;)

Opinions are opinions, etc. Problem comes when you decide to pass them as facts and decide to start blaming around. Your post with the original post have huge differences, as well as your stand and giancula's stand!

I choose what to listen 80% of the time (except when in car, where I don't have a player, but only a radio)! I choose what I listen, so I'm NOT bombarded by anything. I watch the telly rarely (only family guy and heroes on BBC 3 :D) and nothing more really! I'm not bombarded by anyone and anything and consider it luck! Right now I'm listening to NOTHING, while viewing the computer. You have a choice to shut your ears, so do so.

As for pop being at fault for the decline of contemporary music... hmmm... we've already been through this.

About Amy Winehouse (I don't like her, or her voice, or anything as a matter of fact, it turns my guts inside out if you want to know), the thing is this: Mahler was a bastard, Brittens was a peadphile, etc. What's wrong with a drug addict now? :D No, apart from kidding, thing is that her voice (and the industry) apparently is higher than her dozens of personal problems... A pity and it does say something for the society we live in, but then again we ARE the society so better start building! ;)

Hi nik, good to see you here!

Erm yes, caught me in another rant...:blush: In fact I'm scared to read what I wrote, I think I might have internet tourettes syndrome or something similar! It happens about once a week or something! ( Actually there was a reason for my ridiculously high levels of cynicism today, it has to do with library music...!)

I wasn't speaking about the decline of contemporary music, I must have worded my post poorly. Once again, I know little about modern concert hall works, so I can't speak for them. However....... Imo the music on tv and film used to be a lot better (generally speaking - actually family guy music is pretty cool!), but yes that's just one man's opinion!

Gardener, it certainly is possible to sing along to Beethoven's fifth. I agree it could be considered motivic, rather than melodic, but it's certainly memorable whatever word suits it best.

To the original poster, the best thing to do when you feel you are being bombarded with somebody else's music (it can and will happen), is not to be critical, not even to criticise the music in your head, but to just ignore it. I find it difficult but it can be done. Problem is, composer's have to analyse everything, and I really find it hard to listen to music as a human being rather than a composer/critic.

Nik, 80% of the music you listen to is the music you like! I suppose the same would be true for me, if I didn't have a younger sister, and I should probably watch a little less television. Oh also, university campuses contain a lot of dangerously loud techno music, especially at 3 in the morning, right below me (I actually had to move rooms it was so bad..!)

Ps... I'm actually starting to like that Messaien piece, the Turangalila (The joy of blood stars). The 2nd section of this movement is just too much for me though!

Somewhere about page 11 in this thread there was an attempt to distinguish between pop and popular music, even though the original post was perceptive enough to do that. I think you also have to distinguish between the music and the hype or marketing that surrounds it. Some pop is little more than marketed girls in minimal clothing but this is nothing to do with music. A lot of 'pop' music is marketed to kids. There is no reason why it should appeal to anyone older. It isn't intended to. Its different strokes for different folks. Gays like to dance to techno (Corbin you need to take a cold shower occasionally) who knows why? Maybe it is the same as taking a cold shower.

When someone wants to talk about the superiority of classical music, they should refer to the thousands of composers such as Albrechtsberger, Czerny, Kallinikov, Salieri, Liszt, Scott...(add the name of some completely forgotten conventional composer from your country here; sorry if I have offended anyones national feelings)

my achy breaky heart.

i just don't think you'll understand.

Yes, there is a difference between 'pop' and popular music, and indeed there are many great pieces of popular music that have been written.

I still believe pop has a detrimental effect on music. Firstly, pop music has lowered the standards of popular music. Therefore there are more people writing popular music. Therefore the chances of anybody succeeding in the world of popular music are much lower. Secondly, since the standard has become so low and yet so profitable, big companies have started churning out rubbish simply to make money. The problem is, the same thing has happened in the media music industry. I was told yesterday by a company that they can get all the music they need for just

"Pop-music" is noise for plebians to enjoy.

The plebian lot is using this noise for auditory massage.

With my intelligence and compositional abilities, I abstain from the auditory filth of the lower-class masses.

Bach there on your Avatar would be disappointed with your god-damn trollin'.

"Pop-music" is noise for plebians to enjoy.

The plebian lot is using this noise for auditory massage.

With my intelligence and compositional abilities, I abstain from the auditory filth of the lower-class masses.

*cough* plebeian - Definitions from Dictionary.com *cough*

An eight of an inch

The amount of space you need to move your finger to not look like an idiot. ;)