Crazy Orchestration

For a while now, I've had this crazy idea about a symphony that I want to write someday.

Okay, here is the crazy part. The symphony calls for all ordinary instruments of an orchestra, but it will also include a recorder section, a viol section, and a saxophone section.

It will also have a piano, a fortepiano, a harpsichord, and a pipe organ. Not only will it have piccolos and flutes, but it will also have alto flutes, bass flutes, subcontra-ultra....bass OK you probably get the picture. I am thinking of including every member of each instrument family. I have not started any sketches of this work, it is simply an idea. I was just wondering if writing such a work is possible and if so, how practical would it be?

That doesn't sound very practical unless your ensemble you're writing it for has access to all of those instruments

It's not terribly complicated:

Who will play it?

Do you have access to an ensemble that is interested?

If not, WHY are you writing it?

Other than out of personal curiosity, why write something that has so little chance of being performed?

My philosophy has changed over time, regarding the choice of instruments for my compositions. I try and write things that I KNOW I can get performed. I will write things that I have no connections for performance ever once in a while, just for fun.

However, you're asking about the feasability of this proposal, and the only answer you will get is: if you're writing it with the intention of getting it performed, forget about it. It just won't happen.

Your a composer. You can write whatever you want. Your song won't be played often, but I'm sure you can get somebody to play it at least once.

Just remember, if you really want to write something, you don't have any rules to abide by. Do whatever you want, and if that includes crazy instrumentations, then go for it.

Okay, I think it's a little redundant to have a pianoforte, a fortepiano, harpsichord, and organ all in one symphony.... choose one. I say go for just the piano, or maybe (only maybe) just the organ. Think of this, if you choose organ, your work will most likely have to be played in a church, and while this isn't necessarily true, it often is, and many churches don't have enough room to put on orchestra this big in it. There are concert halls with organs as well, though, mind you. If you choose the piano, pianos take up room and that's less floor space for the orchestra, unless you want the recorder choir playing from on top of the piano case.

Other than your redundancy in choice of keyboard instruments in a work of such scale, I say it's a smashing idea. You would need some 20"x30" paper to print the score, though :ermm:

Oh yeah, and be careful with the extra low instruments, the lowest woodwinds can get lost in large textures and orchestration, and if you write for too low of instruments, it's hard as Hell to find someone that plays then. Like.... octobass flute, subcontrabass clarinet, tubax (which is subcontra sax), subcontrabassoon, and such. For instance, the only subcontrabass clarinet in existence is owned by Mr. Leblanc himself, only he ever played it from what I understand. Or maybe it was the octobass clarinet.... :huh:

Oh, and don't forget an Ondes Martenot. ;)

...and if you write for too low of instruments, it's hard as Hell to find someone that plays them.

tubas (which is subcontra sax)

I'll have to second qccowboy's advice: when you are starting out, it's almost always best that you write something that you know you will be able to have performed. Music that sits in a drawer unplayed is a waste of your effort, and at some point you'll realize that you've spent weeks/months/years of your life on something that no one else will ever appreciate.

Well, you know, if I can't manage to get it performed, I can always use a sound sample library like VSL. ;) The only problems with that would be that

A: I would have to wait for VSL to record the sounds of all the wacky instruments for the symphony that will be used and,

B: the instrument purists would criticize my recording as being fake and that not even VSL can truly replicate sounds of a real orchestra and yada yada yada... :)

I suppose I could do a worldwide search for musicians who specialize in these instruments but conducting the search and hiring all of them would be really, really, really expensive.

PS: What's an Ondes Martenot?

Oh and about the keyboards. How is using a piano, a fortepiano, a harpsichord, and an organ redundant? Each of these instruments produce totally unique sounds which is why I am considering all of them.

Those different keyboard instruments are definitely not redundant, as they sound so completely differently. You don't even call using an A clarinet and a Bb clarinet in the same piece redundant, and they sound almost the same.

Anyways, to the original question: I find nothing wrong with composing for such an orchestra. Personally I also tend to only write for ensembles of which I know the piece will be performed, but that's mostly because I don't have enough spare time to work on any large projects without prospect of being performed. If you have enough spare time, there's nothing wrong with composing for an ensemble without being sure that it will ever be performed, if that allows you to explore new areas of composition you couldn't explore otherwise.

But of course it may be a little frustrating to work on a huge project for months, if not years, without ever being able to hear how it sounds. That doesn't only apply to unusual orchestras though, but also to normal orchestral pieces. If it's not a commission, or you're very good or well-known, chances are that it will not be performed. So if you want to write an orchestral piece and don't have an orchestra available to you, you might as well do something a bit unusual.

Oh, and an Ondes Martenot is an early electronic instrument, used a lot by Messiaen, Jolivet, and a few other (mainly French) composers. It has both a keyboard (like a piano) and some sort of horizontal rod allowing for glissandi, making both exact playing of pitches and sweeping across frequencies possible.

I've been debating with myself about including a hyperbass flute although that may be a stretch. :)

Do you actually KNOW anyone who has these instruments?

I find your obsession with writing for an impossible orchestra a tad strange.

You realize that bass flutes (in C) are a very rare commodity. So anything even rarer is, well, just that.

What exactly do you hope to gain from writing for so massive an ensemble?

Are you capable of writing for a "normal" full orchestra, first off?

Do you have a good grasp of orchestration?

It simply seems to me that you could be spending time on a considerably more worthwhile project. Something from which you will elarn something, or at least something that has some slim chance of being performed.

And purely from a financial point of view, unless you're a major player in the music world, the chances that an orchestra will go ahead and greenlight instrument rentals and extra player salaries for that many people... not slim: nil. And this is regardless of the quality of anything you could write. Even if it's a masterpiece.

Even well-known composers have trouble getting new works performed by orchestras.

I have not started working on this at all. This is simply an idea that I've had for a while and I just thought it would be neat to write such a piece. My experience in writing music of the classical genres is slim to none but I want to learn how to. So far, I have written instrumental music on my keyboard (mostly pop styles). So no I have not started any work on it. I just thought it would be fun to write someday. :) And as for what I would gain from such a piece, well, I would have done something that has never been done before (I think). You have to admit, to be able to implement all of those unique sounds into a grand and beautiful piece would be spectacular. I hope that someday I will be skilled enough to compose such a piece. But for now, I'm just dreaming. Nothing wrong with that though. :thumbsup:

Also, with technology, there are alternatives to orchestras such as sound sample libraries.

And purely from a financial point of view, unless you're a major player in the music world, the chances that an orchestra will go ahead and greenlight instrument rentals and extra player salaries for that many people... not slim: nil. And this is regardless of the quality of anything you could write. Even if it's a masterpiece.

Even well-known composers have trouble getting new works performed by orchestras.

I believe one of the Respighi pieces requires some 10-odd percussionists that orchestras simply don't bother to hire enough players for (actually I'm sure that happens for very many pieces with exceedingly large percussion sections).

Another example is Ravel's Bolero. There are three saxophone parts, 1) Bb Tenor Saxophone, 2) Bb Soprano Saxophone, and 3) F Sopranino Saxophone (an instrument that doesn't exist and never did...). I've never seen an orchestra perform this with all three saxophone parts; instead, they transpose the Sopranino saxophone solo for a Soprano saxophone and the other two parts go completely unplayed.

Music may be art, but remember that even in art there are practical restrictions.

A sopranino saxophone doesn't exist? I thought for sure it did.

... if you choose organ, your work will most likely have to be played in a church, and while this isn't necessarily true, it often is ...

I actually have never seen a concert hall where the basement or backstage didn't have a real organ that could be wheeled out and then connected in some fashion.

A sopranino saxophone doesn't exist? I thought for sure it did.

Yes, sopranino saxophones exist, it is an Eb instrument, above the Bb soprano. Flint was talking about a sopranino in F, which does not exist, we only have models in Eb.

I think you meant "tubax" (I have an acquaintance who owns two!) :)

It's like listening to two foghorns arguing.

Well.. as long as you are using common instruments... i think it is a good idea. The important point is the skill level. With professional ensembles... it is going to be extremely expensive. But if you write something that is playable by amateurs, you can get live performance at a reasonable cost.

If you combine a symphony orchestra, a jazz big band, a marching band, and a church choir, you can actually get something close to what you have in mind. String section, full blown brass section, a sax section, a large percussion section, piano, organ, harpsichord. Recorders should not be a problem, and you should be able to find a good flute and clarinet section. All of these ensembles are available in some major universities, and you don't have to pay the musicians. It is common that the university will held a concert event where each of these ensembles perform in turn. So why don't write a grand piece where all of them can perform together ??

As somebody has pointed out, concert halls generally has a real organ. You can also use a church for performance. You can fit a very large orchestra in a church. The only problem with that is you may no longer have enough room for the audience :D

I would imagine that the piece should be very long, otherwise there would be no space to explore all of those different sections. Maybe some of its movements can be performed individually with smaller-scale orchestra, thus creating more opportunity for live performance.

So write those small movements first to get a basic idea of orchestration. Then you can proceed to more complex movements, and finally, write the grand finale with a BIG tutti.

True. It will be hard to find musicians to specialize in contrabass trumpets

and similarly rare instruments though. :)

Well, as long as you can FIND a contrabass trumpet, you should be fine. Usually a tuba or baritone horn player plays such an instrument.

Wow, you sound mahlerian with your crazy orchestration. Are you sure you can pull this off, and who will perform it? Sounds great as I read it but do you have a plan for the movements or anything? By the way, I also am currently composing a symphony (without the sxaphones recorders and organ) but I do have a piano. You can check it out at the Writers Block Section, Symphony 1 E flat major.

Just go ahead and do it. Sounds fu*king awesome. I was going to say what fauzie said. Make it easy to play, and get music students to play it.

No one will ever have that piece in their repertoire. Musicians will probably play their cues and then put their sheets inside a frame like a souvenir. But it will be great for one shot, and sounds like a hell of a quest to make it work. Academic music today is fed by crazy ideas like that.