University student needs advice

Hi,

Firstly, I am sorry for the length of this post.

I am currently at a second year music student. At the end of my current degree I want to study Composition at a Masters level but there is so much flying around in my head, I can't make sense of it all.

I have always love composition but I have other interests so haven't focused my degree on composition. But I know that if I truly want the best education and support at postgraduate, then I need to get into one of the music colleges (i.e RCM, RNCM) which is where my problems begin.

Most of these colleges require First class degrees, something I know I am not going to get (my marks won't add up.) So, to stand any chance of being accepted, I need to do so on the merit of my compositions which to me is a HUGE problem.

My compositions to date, feel average at best. I know there aren't my best that I could probably do better. I have 9 months in which to turn this around and create a substantial portfolio of recent compositions to meet the entry requirements for what they want. I can do this, I reckon with a bit of spit and polish, I could do this. Though the thought of a substantial portfolio is something very dautining and I don't think I can do it alone. But, yes you guess it, this is a problem.

My university is great don't get me wrong but I have never managed to click with my main composition lecturers. There is one lecturer with whom I do click but he only teaches Composition in the first year. It has taken me over 6 months to admit that I want to do postgraduate composition to another person so you can imagine how I feel about sitting down with one of my lecturers, even the one I click with. I think I would be laughed out the door the second I mention where I want to go or fobbed off and told to choose a normal university (something I don't want to do).

I thank you if you made it this far and if you don't think I am the strangest person you have ever met, I welcome your advice.

I suppose you're at one of those junctures in life where things will go one of several ways.

You need to think deeply about what it is you actually want to do with your life. If getting onto your desired master's programme is going to be a massive upheaval, perhaps have a think about whether or not it will be worth the effort. Don't forget that you'll have to keep the momentum going once you're there, as well.

Also, there are plenty of places other than music colleges which do very good master's programmes...unless you have some really specific requirements that you didn't outline.

...there are plenty of places other than music colleges which do very good master's programmes...

A wonderful point. Why limit yourself so severely to the 'top tier' music colleges in the UK, when many universities have decent or great programs; and more importantly, great professors.

What about studying abroad? Europe has many amazing schools, same with North America...keep your options open and find the best environment and professor for YOU.

I suppose you're at one of those junctures in life where things will go one of several ways.

You need to think deeply about what it is you actually want to do with your life. If getting onto your desired master's programme is going to be a massive upheaval, perhaps have a think about whether or not it will be worth the effort. Don't forget that you'll have to keep the momentum going once you're there, as well.

Also, there are plenty of places other than music colleges which do very good master's programmes...unless you have some really specific requirements that you didn't outline.

I can understand your point. The reason however that I do not feel comfortable in my own abilities as a composer is down to the fact I lack experince. I have had to finance my degree myself - I have no family to support me and this has resulted in working alongside my degree. Leaving hardly anytime to explore my Composition interests.

I feel if I was able to get guidance and was able to ask for advice and help through my university then I might be not so scared of the trying to get into one of the colleges. But I don't feel comfortable going to see any of my lecturers - the thought of being told I am insane is not something I want to happen.

This is honestly want to do whatever that means in doing to get there. I have known for sometime that Composition was where I was heading but until now haven't had the chance to actually do something about it.

Overseas study is most definitely out - I need to find quite a bit of funding just to do my Masters in the Uk, let alone going overseas. I actually have a specific place in mind that I want to apply to and I am getting in touch with them about what extactly they require in terms of my application.

Keeping your focus narrow is a sure-fire way to be dissapointed. Cast your nets wide and see what schools will give you the most money to attend there and then study there. I realize the importance of getting along with a professor but I would suggest seeing what you are offered and then choosing the path of least resistance. A classmate of mine from undergrad went and did his masters in composition at a school that he couldn't stand. They offered him the most money and he wanted a degree. (He and I attended an intensive seminar two summers ago along with a few other classmates. He brought his masters thesis composition along for the sole purpose of giving us all a good laugh. He thought it was awful music but his teacher loved it! Atonal and a strange score with lots of pictures rather than notes.)

Take what you can get, learn what you can, seek what you need, get the degree.

...see what schools will give you the most money to attend there and then study there.

A terrible reason to attend a school.

A classmate of mine from undergrad went and did his masters in composition at a school that he couldn't stand. They offered him the most money and he wanted a degree. (He and I attended an intensive seminar two summers ago along with a few other classmates. He brought his masters thesis composition along for the sole purpose of giving us all a good laugh. He thought it was awful music but his teacher loved it! Atonal and a strange score with lots of pictures rather than notes.)

What you just gave us is a counterargument to your 'mo money' theory. Your classmate ended up with little more than a very expensive piece of paper, and two years of his career wasted. He learnt nothing, and has little to show for it.

Lame.

Go where it'll be best for your ARTISTICALLY. Your time is precious, so don't waste it. Make sure you'll get something out of your time spent in school.

Keeping your focus narrow is a sure-fire way to be dissapointed. Cast your nets wide and see what schools will give you the most money to attend there and then study there. I realize the importance of getting along with a professor but I would suggest seeing what you are offered and then choosing the path of least resistance. A classmate of mine from undergrad went and did his masters in composition at a school that he couldn't stand. They offered him the most money and he wanted a degree. (He and I attended an intensive seminar two summers ago along with a few other classmates. He brought his masters thesis composition along for the sole purpose of giving us all a good laugh. He thought it was awful music but his teacher loved it! Atonal and a strange score with lots of pictures rather than notes.)

Take what you can get, learn what you can, seek what you need, get the degree.

This post is pretty much a textbook example of how NOT to apply for grad school in Composition

All I'm saying is that if you want the degree, that piece of paper that says you know how to compose, and if money is an issue, study where you can best study cheaply. If all you want to do is learn to compose well, hire a private teacher.

What my friend was able to get was a masters and therefore, a step closer to a PhD and a collegiate teaching post. He learned what he could from that school and what they wouldn't/couldn't teach him, he sought elsewhere. He didn't waste his time because he wanted a degree as a stepping stone. If that is all he wanted, he got it...and good for him for getting it cheaper than elsewhere.

You can always blow a wad of cash on a school that you want to attend if you are willing to take out loans. If you need to do it cheap, you have to do it cheap. What's the big deal?

All I'm saying is that if you want the degree, that piece of paper that says you know how to compose ... a masters and therefore, a step closer to a PhD and a collegiate teaching post.

... What's the big deal?

:mellow: Ugh, this is so backwards....and don't get me started on the recent trend towards 'young' professors. I don't want to derail this poor young lady's thread...

:whistling:

No big deal.

I would rather attend a university which has a reputation for Compositional Excellence even if this means running up futher debt to my current university overdraft. I already have a college in mind - one that is not only excellent for composition and wouldn't break the bank. I haven't limited myself to that university, I will consider and apply to others but everyone has to have a goal in mind which streches them to strive for perfection. This is mine.

My problem isn't entirely financally related - that saying it isn't a reason for this thread (hence why I did not previously mention it in my opening post.) If I got into my dream university and had to study part time so I could work to finance it - believe me I would rather do that then choose a university just because I can afford to go there.

My problem is that I want to refine my skills and need guidence on my application portfolio and what I should compose for it and making sure it is of a good enough standard to not let me down when I submit it. At present I think I have only one composition I would be happy in submitting (once I do some revisions.)

Studying techniques and compositional theory through books is harder for me that some as I am dyslexic (another factor which has no part in this problem as I am capable of getting A in essays) plus you don't have someone able to point and guide you in the right direction.

If I had the confidence to do so, I would go to the lecturer I do sort of click with for help and advice but I just don't have it. He is the nicest lecturer in the world but coming out with everything I have said in the thread to him is like asking me to go to a lecture naked - I just couldn't do it. It sounds rather stupid and foolish of me as normally you can't shut me up and confidence is something I don't lack. However, in this case, it is.

Rainy,

I see your point.

Why is your choice professor so unapproachable? He's not likely to bite, nor is he any more likely to refuse to help. If he's at all serious about teaching and music, he'll be more than happy to help. Try sending a casual email. It all seems now, to boil down to the fact that you want to improve your composing skills, and getting some guidance and criticism from a pro is your best bet.

Perhaps taking a year off in between degrees would be a good idea. It'd give you some time to work without the pressure of application deadlines looming over you.

Which school are you hoping to attend? Do you know the prof you'd be studying with? You could skip right to the source - ask them what they'd like to see in a graduate level composition student. Have a lesson, get to know them...try bribes (professors tend to like bottles of scotch).

Rainy,

I see your point.

Why is your choice professor so unapproachable? He's not likely to bite, nor is he any more likely to refuse to help. If he's at all serious about teaching and music, he'll be more than happy to help. Try sending a casual email. It all seems now, to boil down to the fact that you want to improve your composing skills, and getting some guidance and criticism from a pro is your best bet.

Although I love my current university - it has a fantantic selection of compositional staff, I have never felt I "belong" there. I have run into several problems over the course of my degree and I am now on what I feel like is my "last chance."

Going to university these days for me is very strange because I don't have any friends in my department and the looks I get from my lecturers always feel like they're watching me, waiting for me to make my next mistake.

Knowing this doesn't make communicating with my lecturers any easy when I already have social difficulties (My social skills are nil). The couple I click with I can show up on their office doorstep with a question about work set and they will just bend over backwards, others can't get me out of the door quick enough. Most of my compositional lectures fall into the latter. For example, I recently went on a trip with the university and one of these lecturers was driving the car I was assigned to. He practically didn't even talk to me the entire trip despite the fact he talked openly and freely to the others - I got so bored I fell asleep both ways (not extactly a good idea).

So to go to one of my lecturers and say "I need help in getting into ....." feeling really difficult for me. I am not sure how revealing this will affect the way I am treated by this lecturer. I want to be taken seriously but if you ask me about my work - I couldn't really tell you who I am influence by and what my style is like - others in my position I have met can reel off their influence by the dozen. So it like, I feel I like going to see my lecturer about this is like going to interrigated.

Perhaps taking a year off in between degrees would be a good idea. It'd give you some time to work without the pressure of application deadlines looming over you.

I am only just returning to university after a semester out to sort my life out. I worked full time during this time and it drove literally around the twist and made me deparate to get back to university. I couldn't stand a whole year off.

Which school are you hoping to attend? Do you know the prof you'd be studying with? You could skip right to the source - ask them what they'd like to see in a graduate level composition student. Have a lesson, get to know them...try bribes (professors tend to like bottles of scotch).

Do I really have to say? I don't want to be laughed at lol. I haven't meet or know the prof I'd be studying with but the reason for my choice is because the university has great links with several big orchestras which performs student works all the time and several of their students have gone on to have sucessful careers.

I have emailed this week to get a more detail list of their entry requirements and what they are looking for to give me some better understanding though having a lesson is rather much out as I currently live over 200 miles from them but I will be going to an open day in June and meeting with the staff. Hopefully by which point, I will be a little more confident in the compositional abilites and influences to be able to making intellectual converstation and make a decent impression.

Rain,

A couple of thoughts, not all you'll like, I'm afraid.

First of all about what you ask really (though it is a bit vague).

Yes, you can bother the hell out of the your lectureres. They are there for a reason. And they are in their office at least a few hours a week, so all you need to do is book an apointment! If they are not available you can file a report to your college and have them pay hell for not being there. I know! Trust me.

Your lecturers are there for a very good reason: to teach. And teaching does not stop in passing on knowledge (otherwise a book or a forum would be enough), but also guidance and help along the way! Not that everybody is this way, but they should be.

Meeting even the AAA composers of London is frequently just a phone call away, or an e-mail away, or a ticket away. You go to a concert where... a big name is featured, and is there. If you do approach him I have my doubts if he will shove you away at least... Not that he will spend his 30 minutes with you, but if you are correct in your approach (a little flatering never hurts, and of course he is your favourite composer and you are thinking of having lessons with him) chances are that he will be interested.

The great moto "The client is always right" stands correct in this case as well. Don't you pay for your lessons? Then you are the client! Especially in postgrad classes.

THE BEST THING HOWEVER that you could do is to meet students! Students will be much more open minded and would have to be in your position only a few years ago. I am in Royal Holloway, and so is Mike (only I'm in PhD and Mike is an undergrad! :Dbuahahaha), so ask away! My supervisor, Phil Cashian is the head of composition in RAM. Ask away again. And so on.

Open days ARE the best thing, and scoutting in the alumni is also great!

No 2 composers will have the same opinion, but do keep in mind that one can only speak of experience and... urban myths about the rest. I mean a student being in Kings College can't have an opinion for... RCM can (s)he? (BTw, I've not heard a lot of good things about Kings college! hehe)

____________________

In composition it largely depends on what YOU do. Royal Holloway gave me 3 workshops per year (for 3 years), so I got some great recordings along the way and a few opportunities. I never had a chance to meet any performer, however. It's not a good place for performers...

But wherever you go, don't think that you'll get many more chances. For example in RAM, I know a pianist who came from australia for postgrad courses (in piano of course). He told me that RAM is SO lacking of modern pianists that he is flooded of comissions and invitations to perform. Which means that maybe another place, might have better chances of getting things perfromed. Or maybe that even in RAM you should contact people outside the college.

__________________

Entering for a Masters it's NOT hard, not really and standards are really low, I have to say. :( Since you will be paying more than

OK, despite Nikolas stealing a bunch of really good points (as often happens :P) I thought I'd insert a response to the following:

Although I love my current university - it has a fantantic selection of compositional staff, I have never felt I "belong" there. I have run into several problems over the course of my degree and I am now on what I feel like is my "last chance."

Going to university these days for me is very strange because I don't have any friends in my department and the looks I get from my lecturers always feel like they're watching me, waiting for me to make my next mistake.

Knowing this doesn't make communicating with my lecturers any easy when I already have social difficulties (My social skills are nil). The couple I click with I can show up on their office doorstep with a question about work set and they will just bend over backwards, others can't get me out of the door quick enough. Most of my compositional lectures fall into the latter. For example, I recently went on a trip with the university and one of these lecturers was driving the car I was assigned to. He practically didn't even talk to me the entire trip despite the fact he talked openly and freely to the others - I got so bored I fell asleep both ways (not extactly a good idea).

It sounds to me as though you might be idealizing what a master's will offer you in terms of helping to forge a personal identity. You feel like an outsider in your current undergrad programme, so the master's will fix all this, right?

I could easily be wrong, but this is the impression I garner, and I find it somewhat concerning. Part of entering university education is deciding what you want to make your life's goals, but to continue this to master's seems expensive and rather redundant to me.

Social skills are in some ways more important than qualifications when it comes to finding work. Obviously that doesn't apply if you're a reclusive composer sitting in a castle wing churning out symphonies on a regular basis, but having decent people skills is very important. I don't mean one needs to be a rampaging socialite, rather that there are multiple aspects of life which hinge on carefully nurtured personal relationships.

Apologies if all that comes across as blunt, I'm a bit pressed for time here. And like I said, I could be way off base, but I thought it was worth dropping my two cents into the bursary. ;)

Great posts from both Nikolas and Mike...heed their advice. It'll do ya good.

One more point:

...to go to one of my lecturers and say "I need help in getting into ....." ...I am not sure how revealing this will affect the way I am treated by this lecturer.

You're approaching this from the wrong angle. I assume you mean: "I need help in getting into [insert school of choice]..." There's no need to mention furthering your education at all. Ask the professors for help with composition - as this lies at the root of the issue! Don't ask "help me get into Guildhall" ... ask "help me write a better piano sonata" . These people are paid to help you - and I suspect you're being a bit paranoid about their feelings towards you.

Also, we're not going to pressure you to reveal your school of choice. BUT, no one here would laugh at you. It might help us give advice...but suit youself!

:thumbsup:

OK, despite Nikolas stealing a bunch of really good points (as often happens :P) I thought I'd insert a response to the following:

It sounds to me as though you might be idealizing what a master's will offer you in terms of helping to forge a personal identity. You feel like an outsider in your current undergrad programme, so the master's will fix all this, right?

Woah! No. The reason I am an outsider is because is down to my own doing. When everyone in my department was making friends in freshers week and beyond - I was getting to know my new boyfriend.

I ruined my first year in that way so when it came to my second year, the first time about, I had a couple of friends in my department. Then I got ill in the second term and I never finished the year.

Now I am returning after almost 7 months away. My friends are now in the thrid and final year and because I was working full time during those 7 months we lost touch.

I could easily be wrong, but this is the impression I garner, and I find it somewhat concerning. Part of entering university education is deciding what you want to make your life's goals, but to continue this to master's seems expensive and rather redundant to me.

I had a choice before university. Right now, I could have been an accountancy student or a music student - because of composition chose music. I love music and have various interests. Though I hate performance, I love explore my creative skills through composition. I just lack experince which some of my composer friends have.

Why would I honesly want to give up composition? I worked in a job in my 7 months off, selling electronics to people, selling the same tv over and over again, day after day and it drove me loopy.

I don't have the financal ability to mess about on a Masters I haven't thought about throughly.

Social skills are in some ways more important than qualifications when it comes to finding work. Obviously that doesn't apply if you're a reclusive composer sitting in a castle wing churning out symphonies on a regular basis, but having decent people skills is very important. I don't mean one needs to be a rampaging socialite, rather that there are multiple aspects of life which hinge on carefully nurtured personal relationships.

Apologies if all that comes across as blunt, I'm a bit pressed for time here. And like I said, I could be way off base, but I thought it was worth dropping my two cents into the bursary. ;)

You are saying this to a girl who I has had some sort of employment ever since she was 16. I know how a workplace works I know how to get a job. I am normally a chatabox as you can tell from the fact my posts aren't one or two word replies. I just have difficulties with the whole making friends thing and making conversation in certain situations. If you have ever seen CSI (the Las Vegas) one, I would say my social ability kind of mirrors Sara to a certain extent.

My social side is being improved though. I am making attempts to mingle with my department. Tonight I am going to my first university concert - we have a series of concerts of Thursday nights which until now I haven't attended because either I have been working or couldn't be bothered. But it was recently knocked into my head that I was missing out of vital compositional development by not attending ... so I purchased a season ticket and will attend every concert where possible.

My social skills aren't the issue here nor should I have to valadate myself about why I want to do my Masters when I made that decision nearly a year ago.

Rain,

Keep in mind that we're all trying to help. :)

As I mentioned earlier in my other post, it does seem uncertain on why you're doing the Masters... I guess this is coming accross to Mike and Robin as well (or maybe other people as well) so there should be hints of truth in there.

BTW, before I forget, when I wanted to do a PhD, I went to rhul supevisor back then (Phil Cashian) and I told him I want to go to Birmingham! Imagine the nerve! And asked him for a reference letter, which I'll admit that I did open, despite I shouldn't. He was quite kind and a correct reference letter in front of me. with all my negatives and possitives. I was crashed! I was the best student ever!??!?!?!?!??? How could I have negatives??!?!?!?

Anyways, a lecturer will understand wanting to talk about various things, and so will students (I'll repeat that. You're already speaking with 2 rhul students, and undergrad and a postgrad. There is a 3rd around (Inal) if he would show his face that

Rain,

Keep in mind that we're all trying to help. :)

As I mentioned earlier in my other post, it does seem uncertain on why you're doing the Masters... I guess this is coming accross to Mike and Robin as well (or maybe other people as well) so there should be hints of truth in there.

I am sorry I lost my temper there but you know it isn't easy haven't gone through half the stuff I have over the course of my degree - you guys have only heard the tip of the iceberg to then have people second guess decision which I have already made long ago. Most people in my position would have dropped out of uni and believe me I have had chances to do so and refused.

I reckon the inquisition I have had on here can't be any worse than from my lecturer so before the concert tonight, I will speak to my lecturer (who happens to run the concert series) and arrange a block of time to go see him next week. Hopefully, my university of choice will have gotten back to me before then and I will have a more detail information about my entry requirements.

I have already done a lot of research it to my postgraduate during my 7 months off, universities, composers, financial considerations. I have a list of places which I intend to visit over the next few months. That is not something I am concerned about - getting there is.

That is not something I am concerned about - getting there is.

Okay, so let's ignore all 'that' - what's it going to take to get you into that school?? How much time do you spend writing? Listening? Analyzing? If you have only a single piece you're happy with, we'll need to get you writing MORE. Practice - whichever instrument you play, I'm sure you practiced. Now, to make the switch to writing, you need to devote the same time and energy into learning to compose. I expect you might be doing this already, if so, keep it up - and seriously, don't be afraid to ask your profs for help.

Also, here on youngcomposers you've stumbled on a invaluable resource. There's many seriously talented composers and teachers on here - you're welcome to ask any of them for help as well (which I see now you've done). No one will judge you - again, we just want to help! :thumbsup:

Okay, so let's ignore all 'that' - what's it going to take to get you into that school?? How much time do you spend writing? Listening? Analyzing? If you have only a single piece you're happy with, we'll need to get you writing MORE. Practice - whichever instrument you play, I'm sure you practiced. Now, to make the switch to writing, you need to devote the same time and energy into learning to compose. I expect you might be doing this already, if so, keep it up - and seriously, don't be afraid to ask your profs for help.

I am a former pianist, guitarist and currently play violin and dabble on clarinet. And yes I do Practice :whistling:. However I am not a performer, nor would I EVER wish to be.

In answer to you questions - I am forever on Sibelius 5 tinkering ... though to date my compositional work have all been pieces I have HAD to write. I have not yet completed a work I WANT to complete (unless you count an arrangement for violin of Amazing Grace.) Though Dawn (see Incomplete works) which is starting to take shape and will be the first piece I WANT to complete and not forced to write,

Listening - itunes is forever open on my computer though of late I am ashamed to admit that classical music hasn't be playing - a few movie soundtracks, mostly pop though I did download a bargain Chopin cd which I have been listening to (I am doing a third year project on some of his works as a secondary project to my main compositional portfolio.)

Analyzing - a weakness of mine. I never know what I am looking for.

There are several pieces I like which I have written however there is only one I COULD submit for an application ... this is not down to any personal or confidence matter but I don't wish to disclose why.

I am a former pianist, guitarist and currently play violin and dabble on clarinet. And yes I do Practice :whistling:. However I am not a performer, nor would I EVER wish to be.

Okay. Do you spend an equal amount of time working on composition? (I suppose since performance isn't going to be your main focus, you should be spending MORE time writing?

Listening is practice as well - what composers do you like? Have you checked out their scores?

Okay. Do you spend an equal amount of time working on composition? (I suppose since performance isn't going to be your main focus, you should be spending MORE time writing?

Listening is practice as well - what composers do you like? Have you checked out their scores?

I spend more time compose than practicing - I practice my violin every other day and have fortnightly lessons on it.

I love all sorts of music so limiting myself here -

Film Genre - John Williams, Some Hans Zimmer and a few others.

Game/Film - Nobuo Uematsu (guy who does the Final Fantasy music for those who don't know)

Kind of hard to get scores for those.

Classical - Chopin, Brahms, Vaughan Williams, some Philip Glass, Debussy, some Ravel. Generally the romantics and the impressionists though as a 21st century composer, I try not to be overly influenced by them.

Have access to scores through my uni.

I can only apologise if my attempt to get to the (apparently non-existent) root of the issue came across as an "inquisition".

I got the impression from your posts that you were hesitant to apply for a master's program, so the natural course of inquiry would then become to discover why you were hesitant. Being that the only knowledge I have of you stems from text on a computer screen, there was no option but to fill in the gaps manually.

If you're absolutely set on applying somewhere, all you need to do is heed Robin and Nikolas' advice by ensuring you apply somewhere which will work for you, and for the right reasons.

All the best for the future, and I look forward to seeing more of your work posted on here. :)

First contact has been made -

I spoke to the lecturer in question asking if I may come see him next week and I did mention it was with regards to postgraduate. He tried to get me to go see the other composition lecturers who know more but I sort of persisted without insulting the lecturers he suggested.

As for the concert itself - it was really good. I enjoyed myself immensely. :)

YAY on all occasions! :)

As for the entry requirements, don't hte websites and prospectus have enough information?