trouble with french horn

I have a score with two staves of Horn. The first stave is for Hn 1 & 2 and the second for Hn 3 & 4. With how the parts are structured, it would work best (after transposition) to put the hn 3/4 part in tenor clef. But do horns read tenor clef?

To answer your question: no, horns do not read tenor clef - keep them in treble clef (unless the part is really low - then you can sometimes use bass clef, but I'd consult an orchestration book if I were you.)

Thanks...What should I do if the parts are separated by an octave in a spot and do extend over 3 ledger lines?

Daniel, that may be a British standard, but not in the US... Horns 1 & 2 and Horns 3 & 4 are always paired here in scores The logic is: the parts will be less likely to have harmony very close together - in 4 part horn harmony.

Personally I use a staff for each horn part. This happily makes it easy for me to extract parts... since a player should never be given a doubled part. That would be pure laziness on the part of the copyist.

Perhaps QC could chime in on Canadian practice?

And yes, horn parts should be in treble clef, or in bass clef if very low. Do not write in bass clef above G3.

Also, when you're writing something in bass clef, it would be good to mention in the score how your bass clef transposes. Traditionally, notes in the bass clef for horn are played one octave higher than the same notes in treble clef, or in other words: In the treble cleff a horn always transposes downwards, but in bass cleff it traditionally transposes upwards.

However, in the 20th century, and in some cases quite a bit earlier, it has become a standard to always transpose horns down, in treble and bass clef, how you would usually expect it. I recommend this later practice, but unless it's very clear by the context I'd write it in the score. It can be a pain to figure out which octave the composer actually meant if it's not clearly indicated. (The same applies to horn parts written for example "in Bb", without "alto" or "basso", but nowadays everyone only writes in F anyways.)

Also, as has been mentioned before, you only should change the clef if it's really necessary. You can easily write down to E3 or even C3 in treble clef. Most hornists prefer that to clef changes. Only when it goes lower than that, or you're writing a series of notes all in that register you definitely should use bass clef.

Try the Orchestration Masterclass, horn writing in four parts is covered. The following *should* take you to the appropriate postings on the matter:

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/orchestration-part-1-theory-woodwinds-10362.html#post182750

Flint, you say a horn player should never be given a doubled part? This may be true for orchestra, but as common practice in band literature, horns parts are left together, in two pairs. I play first horn in my band, and the 2nd or 3rd part is often on the same page. I don't mind it at all, I actually prefer it, so I can see what the other parts are doing in relation to myself. BUT, I have seen parts written with each of the 4 horns on separate parts. In wind band, I'm afraid this has become a matter of preference over standard these days, at least where I am in the US.

It may be common, but it's still lazy, and poor show.

To your opinion. I prefer having another part on my own as well.

I guess it also depends on the length of the piece. If everything fits on a single page, for example, why not give the musician some additional info by including the other parts? If it means that the musicians have to turn pages a lot, possibly at difficult times, single parts are definitely the better choice. While the majority of orchestral pieces are given out in separate parts, there are also quite many where all the horn parts are on the same page, mostly if it's just two horns though.

Gardener, are you talking about two seperate staves on one page? Because I was talking about having two horn parts on one stave. So the part is one staved, but there are two voices on it, upper and lower, or 1st and 3rd, or 2nd and 4th, or in the absence of a 3rd and 4th, then just 1st and 2nd together.

Ohh, now I get it. Well, in that case it depends on how readable it is. As soon as there's anything like voice crossing or very different rhythms between the horns it would get very uncomfortable to read. But since it's quite common with "divisi" strings, I don't see why it shouldn't be used for horn parts too, if they're simple enough. Most orchestral music is too complex to allow for that of course.

For the sake of utility players, it's nice to be able to give them a doubled 1/2 part. I would call that much more practical than having one player trying to read off of two printed parts. So, if you're in a group that has a 3rd clarinet, 3rd trumpet, etc, etc, and the piece is originally only scored for two, the third player can double either part depending on the situation.

In cases of music like Mahler, I would call this a necessity, because unless you have a 7-9 horn choir (depending on the symphony), the conductor will need to choose which horn is playing what part, and where. It's not always feasible to just say "let's leave out horn 3" or something similar.

To solve the problem, can't you just write the whole thing up one octave and tell the players to play it one octave lower? (I don't know if this may ... be an option...? I don't know much about horn, so sorry if it's a poor answer... was just thinking about it)

Please, please, please do not put the horn in the bass clef. There probably isn't any reason to explore the lower ranges of the horn anyway, considering you have other brass that can cover that range, and with a stronger sound. The low range of the horn is weak. But whatever you do, don't put in a Bass clef.

Thanks. :)

*laughs* .... I love horn sound in the bass clef... and I DO plan on doing just that. Maybe when I feel like writing for horn quartet or something. But low horn is fun. BUT, in orchestral music, in the exception of the occasion 4th horn solo, extreme range horn is a no-no. :thumbsdown:

"To solve the problem, can't you just write the whole thing up one octave and tell the players to play it one octave lower?"

Yes, that is a horrible solution, I'm afraid. :happy: Well, at least if I'm thinking what you're thinking, but I'm not quite sure. If you meant, 'if the horns cross (in voices), then write one up and octave and tell it to play down so the notes don't clash.' If that's what you meant.... eeeek! Horn's voices shouldn't really be crossing in good orchestration though, with certain situational exceptions.

Please, please, please do not put the horn in the bass clef. There probably isn't any reason to explore the lower ranges of the horn anyway, considering you have other brass that can cover that range, and with a stronger sound. The low range of the horn is weak. But whatever you do, don't put in a Bass clef.

Thanks. :)

Listen to Shostakovitch's 5th symphony, with all four horns playing a low passage really loudly in the first movement. Yay!

Of course, the horn may not have the power of trombones in its lower range, but neither does a flute have the power of a trumpet. Surely there are more things to consider when orchestrating than just "strength"!

Horn's voices shouldn't really be crossing in good orchestration though, with certain situational exceptions.

I don't see any reason why not. It's not that rare, and the more versatilely horns began to be used, the more necessary it became. There are even pieces where it's not even clear which of two horns is generally lower (such as Prokofiev's "Peter and the Wolf" with three horn parts, where sometimes the second horn is the lowest, sometimes the third.)

Of course, the horn may not have the power of trombones in its lower range, but neither does a flute have the power of a trumpet. Surely there are more things to consider when orchestrating than just "strength"!

Yes, you're absolutely right. Somebody mentioned about octave doubling on the horn. In the low range, there's no need for it considering the amount of instruments that can cover the lower range with precision. If you like that breathy, weak sound that the horn has, and plan to use it as a special effect of some sort, go nuts.

I personally hate seeing the bass clef, because for some reason, I want to play what's in front of me at concert pitch. It's more my problem than anything, I don't know if anybody else has this issue, but I'm not really a fan of it.

Somebody mentioned using an 8vb indication instead: that would be better. :)

"...breathy, weak sound..." ?????

I think the Evil Horn Spirit is going to claim another infidel!! Low horns are one of the wonders of ensemble/orchestral sound

... furthermore ...

Octave doubling on the horn. Had great success in a small orchestra setting with a two-part fanfare thingy: trumpets in octaves -vs- horns in octaves. Loud. If I remember rightly, the 2nd horn got down to written C (beneath the fourth ledger line below the treble clef). Strings doing their busy thing in the background. Mind you, hot player from the local symph hammering the part out. Worked a treat!!

Ahem, I happen to be a horn player. :P

... then I hope your bottom end (as it were) isn't breathy and weak!!! :(

Ahem, I happen to be a horn player. :P

And you're not the only one. :thumbsup:

Just because y'are one doesn't mean you're opinion is automatically correct.

*loves LOW horn AND uber high horn, for the record*

And you're not the only one. :thumbsup:

Just because y'are one doesn't mean you're opinion is automatically correct.

*loves LOW horn AND uber high horn, for the record*

An opinion is a belief, not a statement of fact. I personally don't like seeing the bass clef for the horn, nor do I like the lower register of the horn. I have told you why. I'm not saying that my thoughts are absolute, or law, or anything else, nor am I trying to force my viewpoints on any of you.

I will say no more on the subject. Good day.

Alright, I wasn't sure about your attitude or what you were saying, but now I understand. Unfortunately, tone of voice is lost in translation to plain text.

I apologize. :)

*shakes hand*

Great to meet you, fellow horn player. ;)

Do you like the first Strauss concerto, by chance? :happy:

"To solve the problem, can't you just write the whole thing up one octave and tell the players to play it one octave lower?"

Yes, that is a horrible solution, I'm afraid. :happy: Well, at least if I'm thinking what you're thinking, but I'm not quite sure. If you meant, 'if the horns cross (in voices), then write one up and octave and tell it to play down so the notes don't clash.' If that's what you meant.... eeeek! Horn's voices shouldn't really be crossing in good orchestration though, with certain situational exceptions.

I assume he meant to solve the problem of bass clef vs ledger lines, which was the original point of this thread.