Playing Bach

When playing them, most interpretations are fairly fast for the prelude and slower with sharper articulation for the fugues, but then you have someone like Glenn Gould who playes the prelude slower and stacatto, and the fugue faster.

Also, as there are no dynamics - should we apply our own to the preludes and fugues or should they just be at a uniform dynamic?

And with regards to pedalling - of course Bach could never have written his pieces to include the pedal, but many people use them when playing his pieces. (especially pieces like the 1st prelude, WTC book 1). I personlly don't think the pedal sounds good with his preludes and sounds awful with the fugues, however many times some people have tried to convince me otherwise!

I just wondered what people think is the authentic way to play them - but then again, with these types of pieces should we be concerned with authenticity? When we play romantic pieces nothing stops us from personal interpretations ...

I am quite interested in what people have to say on this because for me, it's important for the audience to have a reaction to what you are playing, because when you perform in public it is for them and some of the time it is to present them with a different perspective and some of the time it is to entertain them. And I think discussions like this with different peoples' opinions can help shape our musicianship, which applies to both the way we approach performances and compositions.

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If you're going for authenticity, harpsichord is the way to go :P In my opinion, Bach on the piano is already a transcription, so a wide latitude should be due the interpreter. As long as nothing is terribly out of character there could be a myriad of acceptable approaches to make for a convincing Bach performance (on the piano, that is).

Yeah. If you're using a piano anyways, you might as well make use of the advantages it has over a harpsichord, such as flexible dynamics. Doesn't mean you have to play it like Brahms or like Debussy, doesn't mean you have to use dynamics excessively (although you certainly could), and if you don't like the sound of it with pedal, don't use it. But interpretation has always been part of (most) music, and in baroque much more so than in the following times. A baroque piece leaves you so many more freedoms than a romantic piece, so make use of it! It wasn't customary to write down everything in detail back then, it was expected of the performer to show some creativity.

"Just playing what's in the notes" would actually be as "unauthentic" as you could get.

Apart from that, I've always believed that performers are artists, not just "sound reproduction machines". Being creative is good! To me, Glen Gould's Bach playing is an excellent example of how you can approach old music very personally and creatively, while still "honouring the piece". While it's not how the pieces actually would have sounded in Bach's time, it's still "authentic" because it's Gould's own authentic interpretation of Bach's notes, that neither removes Bach's nor Gould's personality from the music.

yeah gardener thats a really good point - I'd forgotten that baroque music was written in the bare minimum for the performers to embellish and show themselves off. (although there is a camp of people who don't agree with that)

Although I have to dispute your point that it gives you more freedom than other periods - what about romantic pieces, where you are invited by the vary nature of it's 'romanticism' to imbue them with your own emotions and improvise and enrich the pieces that you play in order to portray these feelings further?

Do whatever the gently caress you want...

Actually, that's what I wanted to say.

yeah gardener thats a really good point - I'd forgotten that baroque music was written in the bare minimum for the performers to embellish and show themselves off. (although there is a camp of people who don't agree with that)

Although I have to dispute your point that it gives you more freedom than other periods - what about romantic pieces, where you are invited by the vary nature of it's 'romanticism' to imbue them with your own emotions and improvise and enrich the pieces that you play in order to portray these feelings further?

Most romantic composers were pretty precise in writing down what they wanted to hear, from metronome markings, to dynamics, articulation, pedal use etc. Take in contrast a violin concerto by Vivaldi, or even more so a "pr

In fact, I find it weird, but although I adore Gould's Bach playing, I don't really like his recordings of more contemporary pieces, such as Berg's piano sonata and others (with the exception of Schoenberg's Suite for Piano). On the other hand, I haven't listened to as many contemporary pieces by Gould as I have of Bach, so I can't really say :P

I haven't heard the Berg sonata, but personally I love how he played Schoenberg and Webern. I absolutely can't stand his Brahms playing though.

In fact, I find it weird, but although I adore Gould's Bach playing, I don't really like his recordings of more contemporary pieces, such as Berg's piano sonata and others (with the exception of Schoenberg's Suite for Piano). On the other hand, I haven't listened to as many contemporary pieces by Gould as I have of Bach, so I can't really say :P

Makes sense to me. I only recall hearing his recording of Sch

According to several accounts of contemporaries that have emerged in the past fifty years or so, Sch

According to several accounts of contemporaries that have emerged in the past fifty years or so, Sch

Hmm, hard to find right now on the internet. It seems like most articles that contain interesting information must be paid :( I couldn't really find anything about Sch

should vibrato be used at all in bach's string music?

It depends upon how authentic you want your performance to be.

In the period, according to available treatises and written accounts, vibrato was used as an ornament to "sweeten" certain notes, rather than almost constantly as in modern technique. Stringed instruments were also configured and set up differently in those days (gut strings, no chinrests or endpins, shorter and lower fingerboards and bridges, etc. not to mention the various changes in bow configuration) and playing techniques were different, too.

It's not easy to get a very authentic performance on a modern instrument, but one can encorporate some period aesthetic by not using vibrato quite so liberally. I can't really describe this in words. Listen to some good recordings by reputable early music specialists, such as The Academy of Ancient Music, The English Concert, The Brandenburg Concert, Tafelmusik, etc. and listen to the string playing to get a better aural idea of what I'm talking about. These people have really done their homework.

what about those famous violinists like heifetz and perlman etc.? i have heard them playing Bach's violin concertos, and they seem to use alot of vibration. do they not care about authencitity?

In my opinion, diversity of performance is what makes recording baroque music so interesting. Conflicting agenda on such questions as the importance of musicality over historical accuracy, the arguments surrounding what constitutes an accurate historical performance and ultimately personal taste leave the modern listener with many more recordings of the works of baroque composers than they would surely have otherwise. This can't be a bad thing.

Bach's keyboard music has interested me for a long time, but only recently have I begun a systematic exploration of the works. At the moment, I feel I prefer the sound of the harpsichord, not simply for the superficial reason that it's more historically accurate (this doesn't really bother me), but that the compositions seem to fit the instrument more snuggly in terms of voice spacing and timbre. Having said that, I find it quite hard to justify my opinion; it's just that. An opinion. To my ear, the harpsichord is more commanding than the piano, a little more forceful, but this might just be nonsense. If for no other reason, it gives the instrument something to do. In some circumstances though, the piano wins hands down. When performing in public, the only thing I'd say is 'a must' is to be consistent in your interpretations. Don't play one piece with no pedal, baroque ornaments and highly mechanically and the next as though it were a Beethoven piano sonata.

The G minor harpsichord concerto (adapted from the Violin Sonata in A minor) does, to be frank, sound pathetic with a harpsichord and string orchestra. Bach himself realised this, and appears never to have finished the set to which the concerto was part. On the other hand, it sounds superb with piano and orchestra - it's perfectly balanced.

what about those famous violinists like heifetz and perlman etc.? i have heard them playing Bach's violin concertos, and they seem to use alot of vibration. do they not care about authencitity?

In a word, no. They were trained to play using modern instruments and modern technique, and they do that beautifully. Not that their interpretations of Bach aren't wonderful in their way; they're simply not what Bach would have heard, nor were they probably what he had in mind. He might have found their effusiveness of technique and frankness of expression embarrassing.

A word about expressiveness and musicailty in authentic performance: there is as much of those qualities present in an authentic performance of a baroque work as there is in a modern performance, if not more so. It's just not the same kind of expressiveness. Whether the listener can hear it or not, or whether a performer cares to exercise the necessary self-discipline, depends on personal taste and sensibility.

We have gradually arrived at a point where most of us wear our emotions on our sleeves and express ourselves freely as a matter of course, with relatively few exceptions. The 18th Century was a time of restraint and decorum in personal expression. It is not surprising that the way those people played their music was necessarily restrained on the surface as well. If one really listens, though, there is a surging undercurrent of expressiveness and emotion just under that surface veneer of restraint. It's present in the music as well as the way it was played. I wouldn't keep anyone from doing as they like, but in my opinion, to play Bach with modern sensibilities about emotion and self-expression in full sway is just inappropriate. It takes discipline to channel all that under the surface, a discipline that appeals to some and is abhorrent to others. The fact remains that the kind of restraint and discipline I'm talking about is something Bach and his contemporaries lived with their whole lives, and is appropriate to the interpretation of their music.

I hope this is relevant but when I play Bach on the organ I think it should be played to the organist's own interpretation - especially in tocatta pieces and things - grand and impressive Bach is my favourite Bach :)

That was a really interesting post, JLeeGraham. Thank you.

Firsty: Of course it's relevant! The organ is different from most instruments in that the player's touch has little effect on the sound that is made, which is produced mechanically. Interpretation of Bach's organ works comes under a somewhat different set of guidelines. Again, while Bach might have (happily) gotten used to the size and grandeur of an 80 rank Aeolian-Skinner organ (as well as some of its modern improvements like an electronic console with almost unlimited coupling capability...and electric fans to fill the chests instead of bellows!), the fact is what he had to work with in Leipzig and elsewhere was considerably more modest, and he wrote his music for what he had. It is therefore really easy to over-register for Bach. I like grand and impressive Bach too, but he can be all that without throwing in the kitchen sink.

Have you ever played any Bach on a small tracker organ?

Zetetic: my pleasure! Can you tell I'm a bit "too" passionate about authentic performance? ;)

I play on a rickety old church organ that hasn't been serviced in god konws how long lol... the D foot pedal has broken which really sucks in the Toccata and Fugue in D minor :(

Ah...I sympathise. Organ maintenance can be an expensive business, and it isn't in the budget of most churches these days, whose numbers generally are not on the rise, nor are their tithes.

Furthermore, a decline in clerical moral standards means that the clergy would rather be seen to invest their money in the third-world than on organ repairs. What about all the starving musicians?

All that is true - but i think if the organ you play on is a bit decrepid it adds to how personal playing it is :) Its a pain sometimes but its more personal lol ;) One of the reasons the organ is my favourite instrument to play :)

Bach's time was during the days of the harpsichord, so I couldn't expect anything other than a modern interpretation. I almost always use the pedal during his Prelude in C from the First Well Tempered Clavier Suite. Unless you are willing to play it for baroque-style audiences, I really don't see any problem with the full view of modern interpretation.