When it comes to abstract thinking

ABSTRACT MUSIC... oh yes

no?

maybe?

I love abstract music. Who's the greatest abstract composer that you know? Do you like/love this music?

Abstract

Abstract so

Please don't give me the b.s. that all music is equally abstract, because some music is so much more abstract than you wouldn't not even not believe

:D

:blink: What is your definition of abstract? If you use "abstract" in the sense it's used in other arts, then certainly almost all music we know is abstract.

The only music I can think of that is definitely not abstract is, well, music concr

What is your definition of abstract?

Mhm. Well, Feldman's music could be described as "abstract", in a sense that his music is kind of like the paintings of the abstract expressionists with which he used to hang out.

I guess, though, that most people would describe "abstract" music as music they don't understand or can't listen to, another term for "contemporary/modern" (against misused terms, especially the latter one).

wouldn't not even not believe

That's quite abstract though :P

Anyway, why don't you give us some examples of those "abstract composers" you love so we can understand what you mean by "abstract music"?

I tend to agree with the above sentiments.

What are you talking about? What is "abstract"; more specifically, what do you mean by "abstract" in a musical sense? Formally abstract? Harmonically? Texturally? Rhythmically? Instrumentally?

Explain, please!!

I was hoping you would answer these questions for me. If you have more ideas about abstractness in music, by all means share them.

But you said you love abstract music, without telling us what you mean or giving examples! Maybe if you did that then you'd get some of the answers you want ;)

There is well constructed classical music, then there is romantic music which doesn't have to be as well constructed. Abstract is unconstructed and emotional, having little to do with common sense and most to do with the perceptions of whatever the abstractness calls for: the future, the past, another life or demention in time. The whole idea of abstract is abstract in of itself, as the whole idea of well constucted music is well constructed.

One of the earliest of my favorite abstract pieces is Debussy's La Mer, not to say that its one of the most abstract. It is only a little abstract, and it doesn't follow its ideas of abstractness though only brief continuity. But the literal depiction of the piece is unreal, and it has no basis, because of how abstract it is. Debussy is one to stare into the sky for too long or look at an object and make it move in an unreal fashion with his mind. He can make a girl move in the most sexual yet impossible way with his imagination. Some yet say abstraction is the highest form of intelligence. Some say abstraction is enhanced intuition, or especially enhanced perception.

An abstract piece is one that can mean a hundred different things, but doesn't mean any of those things.

By abtraction, I could also refer to open-endedness.

Some yet say abstraction is the highest form of intelligence. Some say abstraction is enhanced intuition, or especially enhanced perception.

Abstraction can also be a painting by a monkey...

[...]to do with common sense [...]

You are implying too much right there. You can't assume all the people have the same common sense as you. What is common sense anyway? A person from a village in India who hasn't had access to Western classical music will find a Stockhausen piece and a Mozart piece equally abstract. Debussy's "La Mer" is not in the least "abstract". If that is abstract, what would you call Cage's 4' 33" or even Earle Brown's December 1952?

There is well constructed classical music, then there is romantic music which doesn't have to be as well constructed. Abstract is unconstructed and emotional, having little to do with common sense and most to do with the perceptions of whatever the abstractness calls for: the future, the past, another life or demention in time. The whole idea of abstract is abstract in of itself, as the whole idea of well constucted music is well constructed.

One of the earliest of my favorite abstract pieces is Debussy's La Mer, not to say that its one of the most abstract. It is only a little abstract, and it doesn't follow its ideas of abstractness though only brief continuity. But the literal depiction of the piece is unreal, and it has no basis, because of how abstract it is. Debussy is one to stare into the sky for too long or look at an object and make it move in an unreal fashion with his mind. He can make a girl move in the most sexual yet impossible way with his imagination. Some yet say abstraction is the highest form of intelligence. Some say abstraction is enhanced intuition, or especially enhanced perception.

An abstract piece is one that can mean a hundred different things, but doesn't mean any of those things.

By abtraction, I could also refer to open-endedness.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, and most of it is pretty off base. Could you be a tad more specific about what you're talking about.

You guys don't seem to get the point. The point I'm trying to make is abstract.

whatever dude

I would add you to my ignore list - Rk - were your comments not quite so amusing.

You guys don't seem to get the point. The point I'm trying to make is abstract.

Your persistence in taking the word "abstract" for granted is quite abstract, I may say, so abstract it's started to become funny :P Please, if all of this is a kind of satirical conversation you started, let us know because people are taking you seriously and I guess that's not what you wanted. If, on the other hand, it's not satirical but serious, then honestly, be serious :P

Your persistence in taking the word "abstract" for granted is quite abstract, I may say, so abstract it's started to become funny :P Please, if all of this is a kind of satirical conversation you started, let us know because people are taking you seriously and I guess that's not what you wanted. If, on the other hand, it's not satirical but serious, then honestly, be serious :P

It isn't satire, everything he posts is this non-sensical and scatterbrained

I wish people would look up words in a dictionary before using them, once in a while :(

I wish people would look up words in a dictionary before using them, once in a while :(

Good luck with that on the internet. Have you been on YouTube lately?

I wish you guys would see that I'm opening up more doors for you.

I wish you guys would see that I'm opening up more doors for you.

Well...since we're all too dense to figure it out, would you mind showing us the doors, we can't seem to find them.

:musicwhistle:

Well...since we're all too dense to figure it out, would you mind showing us the doors, we can't seem to find them.

:musicwhistle:

Because they don't exist

Abstract by dictionary definition is

Considered apart from concrete existence.*example* An "Abstract" concept

Not applied or practical; theoretical

Difficult to understand; abstruse

So really trying to define something as abstract is like trying to pull logs with a Volkswagen

(see? That was abstract, because it wasn't practical)

I'm glad you guys are atleast figuring out how abstract things are when I'm around. See, you're getting the idea ;)

I'm not tryin' to come off as rude or anything...

Since the visual arts are the closest area to music where the term "abstract" has a defined meaning, personally I'll stick to that, and define "abstract" as something that isn't mimetic to concrete objects of the world, which is why I see most music as abstract.

The older definition of abstraction in the visual art would be something that that is "drawn from" a mimesis of concrete objects, by means of omitting details that are considered insignificant. In that case, almost no music I can think of could be called abstract.

And then there's the more general definition of "abstract" which denotes something like a generalised concept, in contrast to concrete, individual objects. The terms "music" or "abstract" could therefore be called abstract, but an individual music piece would be concrete.

But no matter which of these definitions you use, you don't get a very good classification of music out of it, mostly because in contrast to the visual arts, music has much longer ceased to concern itself with just imitating real objects.

I really dislike the posted definitions of abstract as "difficult to understand, abstruse" too. I'm not sure where exactly they come from, but I doubt it has ever been the point of abstracting to make something abstruse. (The result may appear "abstruse" to many people of course, but that's no reason to define it as such.)

What I'd normally expect the term "abstract music" to mean is absolute music, as opposed to program music. However, since the original poster mentioned "La Mer", which is a textbook example of program music, I guess that's not it. So it must be a broader definition. However, it must be (assuming it's at all meaningful) so narrow that it does not include all music.

My best explanation is that Rkmajora used a random word in a non-standard and intriguing way, and, in urging us to think about it, believes that deep philosophy is being done. What's really happening is that some guy uses a word in a non-standard way, and nobody understands. Supposed esotericism is usually just nonsense in disguise, however uninspiring that might sound.

Nonsense in disguise seems to be the main topic here, it seems.

Bear.

Bear! That's the real issue here. Let's discuss bears' effects on modern composition. Me first: I think bears are a positive influence on composes, since they eat fish and can potentially kill you.

Also, some bears are white, though those are real far and they don't pose a threat to most people. They are not as beneficial as other bears, though they can also potentially kill you. Sometimes, a bear can stand up on its two rear legs and that can be pretty scary. So try to avoid being there if possible.

Then there are those bears that are not really bear-looking, like Raccoons which come from the bear family, according to Wikipedia. Here is a huge picture of a Raccoon which will probably break the board's formatting (sorry):

In my educated opinion as a musician they are a hazard to composers, due to the fact they are not very tall, do not eat fish and don't put up a very good fight. As food, Wikipedia tells us, it provided a sizeable amount of protein. Raccoon is seldom eaten today, and thus irrelevant to a modern composers' diet.

In conclusion, stay the hell away from bears of all sorts.

These are all inspiring things. Good work :)

I'm glad you're having a good time, Rkmajora :P