getting stuck in a tonality

ever feel you're stuck in a tonality when composing, and don't know how to get out...example, say you've included some hexacordal/whole-tone ideas and you're having trouble transitioning back into a diatonic framework, or you've gotten increasingly chromatic and can't seem to relieve it for a minute...can anyone relate or offer up solutions?

I know exactly what you're talking about. When you're dealing with symmetrical harmonic languages like hexaphonic stuff, you can really only do so much with it, it can only carry you so far. I suggest just intensely studying some pieces that you really, the kind of music that you want to write, and see what those composers do. Honestly, score study and application of what you learn will make you a better composer. Good luck, I totally understand where you're coming from.

thanks, in fact i'm already doing what you suggested haha...one score, my ultimate "tonality spanning" reference of the moment is Berg's op. 1 Piano Sonata...all kinds of harmonic ideas going on, an essential to study

and i just realized i posted this in the wrong forum, not advice nd techniques...can this maybe be moved?

haha, i have a problem usually....if my piece is purely tonal, nice and sweet changing key's where necessary...i cant step into chromatiscim very well, or even dissonance...if i do, it will usually involve diminished and augmented chords.

If i write a piece starting dissonant, it will remain that way the WHOLE way...and wont make sense. There wont be any form of a memorable motif (well, usually rhythm is my motif), but its ridiculous. I know some people may say "dissonance doesnt have to make sense..." and then some people may speak vice versa. But, I always struggle to just place a nice climactic building point in TONALITY to give everyone listening a chance to breathe in sensible sound.

I know what you mean, and Im sorry but I can't offer much advice on it. I would agree with GMS's comment though: read scores...and as you said, you are...so tahts good.

I never had this problem.

When writing a mostly tonal piece, and I want to break away from it, I like it view it was life.

There are people who believe that to appreciate the joy in life you must suffer. In the same way, you can consider a break away from tonality in music as the suffering per se. Instead of jumping to the next logical chord, take a break and deviate to dissonance and make the person want the next logical chord.

Writing music is a time consuming task. It's important to look at each measure you write and see what your options really are. What will happen if you keep on being tonal, what will happen if you diverge to dissonance. What if you end it now? Ask yourself these questions and brain storm the ideas that come.

When writing a mostly tonal piece, and I want to break away from it, I like it view it was life.

There are people who believe that to appreciate the joy in life you must suffer. In the same way, you can consider a break away from tonality in music as the suffering per se. Instead of jumping to the next logical chord, take a break and deviate to dissonance and make the person want the next logical chord.

Writing music is a time consuming task. It's important to look at each measure you write and see what your options really are. What will happen if you keep on being tonal, what will happen if you diverge to dissonance. What if you end it now? Ask yourself these questions and brain storm the ideas that come.

goodridge_winners thanks DOFTS for awesome advice.

For the record, your harmonies don't have to be functional. You can still use aspects of tonality/polytonality/pantonality and basically whatever you. Really, the secret to composing is knowing what you want.

dofts: i understand the metaphysical values of composition and its difficulties haha, but was looking more for techniques when moving into different tonalities

gms: i know my harmonies don't need to be functional, in fact the fast part of a piece i'm working on is not...but then my second part is, in a wagnerian sort of way...i'm having trouble moving from the straightforward triads and dominant harmony back into the nonfunctional, without going from Ab chord right to a cluster (a stretched example)...i'm looking more to inch my way there

thanks for all the advice guys!

dofts: i understand the metaphysical values of composition and its difficulties haha, but was looking more for techniques when moving into different tonalities

gms: i know my harmonies don't need to be functional, in fact the fast part of a piece i'm working on is not...but then my second part is, in a wagnerian sort of way...i'm having trouble moving from the straightforward triads and dominant harmony back into the nonfunctional, without going from Ab chord right to a cluster (a stretched example)...i'm looking more to inch my way there

thanks for all the advice guys!

Then don't use straight forward triads. You can put in non-harmonic tones to keep the overall color consistent, transition more easily have better voice leading. You have to develop a language that's consistent otherwise you'll sound all over the shop. Nothing sounds worse than a piece using an "atonal" approach and then it ends with a major triad, boooo! So yeah, don't do that.

gms5287...i'm having trouble understanding what you meant in your second sentence, the wording is confusing me, sorry...and fyi I wouldn't go so far to call my first part 'atonal', but rather 'chromatic'...again, thanks for your help

Then don't use straight forward triads. You can put in non-harmonic tones to keep the overall color consistent, transition more easily have better voice leading. You have to develop a language that's consistent otherwise you'll sound all over the shop. Nothing sounds worse than a piece using an "atonal" approach and then it ends with a major triad, boooo! So yeah, don't do that.

Pffh, nothing sounds worse than someone giving off axiomatic rules of what music should sound like! We're no longer living in the fifties. You can end an atonal piece on a major triad.

Which also reminds me: I'm just using Stravinsky's "L'histoire du soldat" as a an exercise for playing from the score, and while it certainly isn't atonal in the sense of the second Vienna school, the dissonant harmonies don't follow a tonal progression for the most part, yet all phrases still tend to end on a minor or major triad, especially in the last piece, the "Grand Chorale". I think this would be a good example to study for entering and leaving different "tonalities". It's absolutely gorgeous too.

thanks gardener for the suggestion, works out for me because i have the score somewhere on my computer

dofts: i understand the metaphysical values of composition and its difficulties haha, but was looking more for techniques when moving into different tonalities

A really great sax player at my school said during a performance that any wrong note is a leading tone for something awesome :)