Modern Composition John Cage

Screw being a composer, I'd like to be an inventor of goddamn genius!

It has a nice ring to it!

Hmm, I don't think the power to move people in and of itself is necassarily an act of composition. I've been moved by many things that aren't necassarily music related. The news moves me - to anger (!) - but it's not composition!

It has a nice ring to it!

Sure does, means nothing but sounds so pretty. Though, I'm sure Schoenberg meant something positive with that, after all, he was pretty vocal about crap he didn't like.

Almacg: You made some good points on other threads (even if we disagree about the whole "atonality" thing), so I respect your opinion. But I can't help saying "Nonsense!" to the whole "art is ability" idea. I agree with SSC. Art doesn't have to be "hard to write" for it to have any value. In fact, "how hard it was to write" means nothing at all. Writing a complex serialist quadruple-fugue in sonata form doesn't make good art. The creative act does.

Admittedly, if you can't write notes or constantly write high C's for the contrabassoon your artistic ideas might just not come through because you can't articulate them. But as long as your abilities suffice to put your ideas into effect to the maximum extent, I see no problem.

I don't care about how something was written (unless that is part of the artistic concept). I don't care about talent or skill. I care about the music.

(Apart from all that, I don't believe anyone could have written 4'33'', even if they technically were easily able to. But John Cage was someone who had learned to listen all the time, something not many musicians do. One of my teachers told me how he had seen Cage standing at a tram station in the middle of the street, like in a trance, totally absorbed by listening to the sounds around him. The ability and readiness to listen is one of the abilities I admire most in musicians. 4'33'' was a logical consequence of years of listening.)

Oh just like to add one of many experiences of John Cage that brought him to 4' 33". H e was invited by scientist to a chamber which soundproofed ALL external sound yet he heard two pitches. He asked the scientist why. The scientist told him the two pitches were produced by your own body (one of them interestingly fomr the nervous system).

I don't think a performance of 4'33" is much different than a picture of a landscape, or of a nature scene, or perhaps of a busy city street, etc. The photographer didn't make those scenes, he simply captured them. It is the interpretation of this capture that makes it art, and I believe that's what John Cage was intending to do with 4'33". He was capturing the naturally occurring sounds that lived during those four minutes and thirty three seconds, as if that was the frame of his picture--leaving it up to the audience to decide what to make of those sounds, or what to make of the piece, or to fall asleep, etc.

Is it music? If you want it to be.

I don't think a performance of 4'33" is much different than a picture of a landscape, or of a nature scene, or perhaps of a busy city street, etc. The photographer didn't make those scenes, he simply captured them.

I think something like 4'33" is more analogous with being in a landscape or standing on a busy street. It's not like a photograph or a painting (with is simply a representation of the moment); but more like, say, a sculpture (to continue to visual art parallel) - you experience the sculpture in real-time, in that moment, and you can affect the sculpture (by changing your position, the sculpture changes too). Things that don't really happen with static arts like a painting.

I think something like 4'33" is more analogous with being in a landscape or standing on a busy street. It's not like a photograph or a painting (with is simply a representation of the moment); but more like, say, a sculpture (to continue to visual art parallel) - you experience the sculpture in real-time, in that moment, and you can affect the sculpture (by changing your position, the sculpture changes too). Things that don't really happen with static arts like a painting.

yeah, i guess you're right. I guess the point I'm trying to make is he is capturing that specific moment in time and leaving it up to interpretation. But yeah, it's definitely a much more "active", and even interactive scene he is capturing.

This is the dumbest thing I've heard (or didn't hear).

You know when I was 10 years old or maybe even younger I was thinking "heh imagine if I'd compose a piece entirely out of rests" and there we go someone did it... If I had the idea when I was 10 does that make me a good composer?

This is the dumbest thing I've heard (or didn't hear).

You know when I was 10 years old or maybe even younger I was thinking "heh imagine if I'd compose a piece entirely out of rests" and there we go someone did it... If I had the idea when I was 10 does that make me a good composer?

Please don't start. I have no patience for attitudes like that.

I don't care about how something was written (unless that is part of the artistic concept). I don't care about talent or skill. I care about the music.[/Quote]

I definitely care about the music too, but thankfully for me the music I enjoy the most took the most talent to write imo!

Robin I don't understand your lack of patience for an attitude that simply disagrees with you. Whether you like it or not, there are a hell of a lot of people who literally laugh at this kind of thing, and although I used to be one of them, I now find this kind of work depressing rather than hilarious.

If Cage has taught you to be open minded, you go about it in a very odd way - patronising anybody with a differing musical opinion. This is one of the essential problems with this kind of 'modern composition'. It's supposed to be about challenging our attitudes towards art, and tearing it free from the stronghold of the elite. Yet, as soon as somebody challenges Cage - which is essentially just somebody challenging the perceptions of art - suddenly the people supposedly advocating freedom of artistic expression act like they've got a rat up their donkey. I'm worried by some of the attitudes modern artists have towards 'tried and true' art.

Most modern artists don't even practice what they preach, they've fooled themselves into thinking in a way that from my point of view is often ridiculous.

Maybe Cage did take years to come up with 4'33'' but despite this he simply wrote nothing. It is not the process but the result. If the result is nothing, then you have essentially failed to achieve anything that could not have been done by every single human being with the ability to write 'tacet' on the planet. Regardless of whether you see metaphor upon metaphor, you should simply remember the story of the naked emporer. If 4'33'' had been written by... my grandad, would you, or anybody have given it the time of day?

Please remember that I'm not trying to provoke a huge Cage vs Da Vinci war!!!, rather an honest discussion.

Robin I don't understand your lack of patience for an attitude that simply disagrees with you. Whether you like it or not, there are a hell of a lot of people who literally laugh at this kind of thing...

If Cage has taught you to be open minded, you go about it in a very odd way - patronising anybody with a differing musical opinion. This is one of the essential problems with this kind of 'modern composition'. It's supposed to be about challenging our attitudes towards art

I have no problem with people disagreeing or disliking something. My problem is WHY they dislike it, and how they feel comfortable voicing ignorant opinions about things of which they have little/no understanding.

You guys don't like things that challenge your perception of art, and that's fair enough. I get a "rat up my donkey" when people can't respect something simply because they dislike it.

I preach respect and openness...and I've explained my position numerous times.

I definitely care about the music too, but thankfully for me the music I enjoy the most took the most talent to write imo!

Robin I don't understand your lack of patience for an attitude that simply disagrees with you. Whether you like it or not, there are a hell of a lot of people who literally laugh at this kind of thing, and although I used to be one of them, I now find this kind of work depressing rather than hilarious.

If Cage has taught you to be open minded, you go about it in a very odd way - patronising anybody with a differing musical opinion. This is one of the essential problems with this kind of 'modern composition'. It's supposed to be about challenging our attitudes towards art, and tearing it free from the stronghold of the elite. Yet, as soon as somebody challenges Cage - which is essentially just somebody challenging the perceptions of art - suddenly the people supposedly advocating freedom of artistic expression act like they've got a rat up their donkey. I'm worried by some of the attitudes modern artists have towards 'tried and true' art.

Most modern artists don't even practice what they preach, they've fooled themselves into thinking in a way that from my point of view is often ridiculous.

Maybe Cage did take years to come up with 4'33'' but despite this he simply wrote nothing. It is not the process but the result. If the result is nothing, then you have essentially failed to achieve anything that could not have been done by every single human being with the ability to write 'tacet' on the planet. Regardless of whether you see metaphor upon metaphor, you should simply remember the story of the naked emporer. If 4'33'' had been written by... my grandad, would you, or anybody have given it the time of day?

Please remember that I'm not trying to provoke a huge Cage vs Da Vinci war!!!, rather an honest discussion.

Anyone could have invented the lightbulb, but that doesn't make Thomas Edison any less important, or any less intelligent, or any less inventive.

If 4'33'' had been written by... my grandad, would you, or anybody have given it the time of day?

If your grandad had spent his entire life exploring the definition of music, how sound and music are intertwined, and how we as humans perceive "music", had your grandad spent the same amount of energy in writing his thoughts on the topic, in composing music that constantly applied everything with which he was experimenting, then yes, I'm sure I (and the rest of the musical establishment) would have given your grandad the same ovation for coming to the conclusions which John Cage did with 4'33".

However, your grandad didn't.

John Cage did.

Anyone could have invented the lightbulb, but that doesn't make Thomas Edison any less important, or any less intelligent, or any less inventive.

*cough* Thomas Edison didn't invent the lightbulb. :thumbsup:

I think the problem is, modern concepts, music, etc are very complicated to explain and understand. So, when people don't bother, it does seem that on the surface it's nonsense when in reality it's really not the case. Attitudes against Cage come pretty much from ignorance to the entire time period, intellectual discussions and so on. I have yet to meet anyone who actually knows about Cage, or any given 20th century musicology problems with any degree of accuracy that don't find it fascinating. There's so much there to explore and look at that dismissing it based on ignorance is exactly what I think Robin is getting at with the respect comment.

Respect means informing your donkey before you make a comment. Respect means saying "I have no idea about what I'm going to say, so forgive me for my ignorant-donkey comment" and respect means at the very least acknowledging that people spent their entire lives trying to answer questions that are of fundamental importance for everyone involved in music what so ever.

And the reason anyone who actually HAS any idea about Cage gets angry when such sweeping, ignorant donkey comments are made is not because a difference in opinion, but the fact that people making such comments show no interest, knowledge, or respect about what they're talking about. Before attacking Cage or modern music, it'd be wise to know that all of it is in function of trying to solve problems and give us a better understanding of what music and sound really are.

Not just writing "pretty notes" or conforming to a popular standard, or aesthetic/style/trend.

I don't know how ANYONE can be opposed to Cage, unless they enjoy ignoring an entire century of intellectual reasoning, questioning, and advances that ultimately help the composer. This seems to be the case here entirely out of ignorance.

That's why it makes me mad, that's why it pisses off Robin, and that's why QCC comes out in defense of Cage and modern music despite the fact that neither of us are hard-core modernists or have any sort of nonsense up our asses.

There's no excuse for ignorance, and there's no excuse for opinions built on such ignorance.

Here here!

I agree whole-heartedly.

When I said 'rat up their asses' I wasn't referring to Robin or anyone on the forum, thought I'd made that clear but obviously not! Seriously, I've come across a lot of people who claim to be open minded about art, and who simply tell people to shut up when somebody speaks out against something. In my opinion that is really rude and incredibly narrow-minded.

Ok, my grandad didn't spend his life challenging the perceptions of art!

Right now, I'm talking about art right? I'm discussing it, I've studied some of John Cage's works at university and I spend lots of my time thinking about art. So what?! This is not a reflection of my artistic ability. I care about the outcome not the process! Maybe John Cage went on a spiritual journey, but essentially 4'33'' does not impress me at all. I find it slightly intriuging, but I'm so much more interested in works that speak for themselves.

Cage seems to have tried to marry philosophy and music. When I write a piece of music, I am not being a philosopher. When I am thinking about philosophy I am not being a composer! Music and philosophy are related, but they are two different entitities. We can philosophise about music, but this is not an act of writing music!

Right now, I'm talking about art right? I'm discussing it, I've studied some of John Cage's works at university and I spend lots of my time thinking about art. ...essentially 4'33'' does not impress me at all. I find it slightly intriuging, but I'm so much more interested in works that speak for themselves.

A fair opinion. And you (Al) won't receive any backlash because you've put in the effort to learn and understand, and have presented your opinion without being derogatory and dismissive; you respect it, and can understand the implications of it, even though you dislike it.

Cats like Maxx here, bust in and stomp all over the place with ignorant statements like "This is the dumbest thing I've heard (or didn't hear)" which is insulting to people who work in this area of music/art and who understand it. They obviously know nothing of the genre, and likely don't care to.

So, I do get a rat up my donkey, and unleash a little scallopyness. When that usually doesn't work, I then resort to simply ignoring the ignorant. Problem is, there's so damn many of them!!

........

BTW, Great post SSC. :thumbsup:

A fair opinion. And you (Al) won't receive any backlash because you've put in the effort to learn and understand, and have presented your opinion without being derogatory and dismissive; you respect it, and can understand the implications of it, even though you dislike it.

Cats like Maxx here, bust in and stomp all over the place with ignorant statements like "This is the dumbest thing I've heard (or didn't hear)" which is insulting to people who work in this area of music/art and who understand it. They obviously know nothing of the genre, and likely don't care to.

So, I do get a rat up my donkey, and unleash a little scallopyness. When that usually doesn't work, I then resort to simply ignoring the ignorant. Problem is, there's so damn many of them!!

........

BTW, Great post SSC. :thumbsup:

Yes you're right! I don't think you should dismiss anything before you know what it is you're dismissing.

Touche.

Loved that reply, it summed up loads of things said in posts before but which no one paid any attention too.

I think the problem also lies in that, people asking questions like that (and in that manner - SimenN could have asked very politely for someone to explain to him why 4'33" is considered a piece of music or a piece of art; but he didn't) will also disregard anything said by people who support the kind of thing they don't understand, or don't want to understand. Otherwise, they would have rephrased their question.

Ignorance is not bad. We are all ignorant once, and there are many things of which we will be ignorant even when we die. However, it's the attitude to that ignorance that can be annoying or not. If someone is ignorant, and he acknowledges that, and he does want to learn more and is not afraid of what he might find out or encounter, that's a lot more different than someone being ignorant, and also ignorant of the fact that he is ignorant, and not wanting to leave that "zone of safety", the things that he knows and is familiar/comfortable with, that his ignorance provides (as opposed to the unknown, what makes him feel uncomfortable and thus try to avoid).

Here's some news: people who were afraid of the unknown never did anything in their lives. To the other extreme, people who conquered the unknown discovered America, set the foundation for nuclear physics, or set foot first on the moon.

Here's some news: people who were afraid of the unknown never did anything in their lives. To the other extreme, people who conquered the unknown discovered America, set the foundation for nuclear physics, or set foot first on the moon.

That's not such a good example, wasn't America discovered by accident? XD

And people have known the moon for a while too... Just GOING there was a challenge. It's not like it was unknown in this sense. . .

BUT obviously your point stands, though I'd argue that people that perpetuate tradition are also important, for the sake of preserving history and having some reference. You need all sorts of people but what you don't need is irresponsibility regardless where it comes from.

So~

That's not such a good example, wasn't America discovered by accident? XD

Yeah, but I think that's quite applicable to musical explorations too. You might set out for something completely different than you will find, but the fact that you do go out, accept risks and keep your eyes (or more musically: ears) open means that you have higher chances of "discovering america" than by staying in bed the whole day. (I'm reading "Oblomov" by Ivan Goncharov at the moment, by the way :P. Great book, pity I can't read it in Russian.)

Yeah, but I think that's quite applicable to musical explorations too. You might set out for something completely different than you will find, but the fact that you do go out, accept risks and keep your eyes (or more musically: ears) open means that you have higher chances of "discovering america" than by staying in bed the whole day. (I'm reading "Oblomov" by Ivan Goncharov at the moment, by the way :P. Great book, pity I can't read it in Russian.)

Well yeah, in that case sure it's a good example.

18 pages?

Jesus!

Let's examine one thing:

Have you ever seen anyone who is respected to go out and bash on anything? I'm sorry but I highly respect SSC, Gardener, QC, Robin, et al and I've never seen them make a thread like "let's piss on baroque", or anything to any extend about bashing.

I just don't get it.

If you like something you want to share the world, you want to let everyone know, educate, share the experience. when you don't like/understand something, why the gently caress say it and make an 18 page long thread?

Alex, you've seen my opinion about Cage in vi. ;) No reason to repeat things. And you've conducted a wondeful debate and discussion here. :) (not unlike vi really! :)) cheers for that!

Alex, you've seen my opinion about Cage in vi. ;) No reason to repeat things. And you've conducted a wondeful debate and discussion here. :) (not unlike vi really! :)) cheers for that!

:) Yes I certainly don't want to repeat that little incident! The trouble is debating art can be tricky. Some people can all too often take things personally, and I suppose that isn't really their fault.

I've often come to the conclusion that telling people that you don't like something is a complete waste, but when it impacts your life in a certain way I feel you may aswell express yourself.