I Miss the Gold Ole Days...

The Terminal has got to be one of my absolute favourite main themes. Just the clarinet and orchestra thing - it's fantastically entertaining to listen to. Just plain charming music.

Totally agree. I also think the "romantic" theme is just beautiful.

gianluca, honestly:

Are you not tired of pissing about every corner you find? On every street? On everything apart from your self and what you like? It's so boring, it's SO RUDE, it's so bloody awful for gently caresses shake!

I mean usually you do get thread talking about how beautiful are things. You usually get "I met this lovely girl", you don't get thread like "Woah! What an ugly girl this is". Why do you feel so inclined to say the worst about everything? To piss about anything? To reduce everything to rubbish?

Does it make you feel better? does it make you feel higher? Like you know what you're talking about? Like you are better?

Just get off, reduce that huge hostility against everything and you might even start enjoying a few things. You don't see me going around that I hate Boulez and Takemitsu, etc, why do you do the opposite? In fact I complain all the same to people that say they don't like contemporary music and people who piss on Cage, Boulez, Messiaen, etc (you can check with alcamg or whatever his nickname is for this. ;))

But really this tendency to declare publicly what We don't like, especially in YC forums, apart from ridiculous is also disgusting and it is the one thing that turns me away from many discussions.

Gosh, why all the frustration? I always thought a discussion forum was about sharing and expressing opinions, arguments and ideas... And that's just what I do - I do not mince matters, but express my opinions outspokenly and sometimes they happen to be critical. So should I refrain from expressing those critical opinions just to keep people like you happy? Should we all resort to making only positive, nice and friendly comments here and talk about how nice and beautiful the world is? Without critical opinions, there would be no critical discussion. If you can't accept that, that's not my problem.

Also, it's not true that I only say the worst about everyone and everything. True, I have pretty harshly criticized some composers. But I have praised others, such as Carter, Boulez, Stockhausen, Ferneyhough, Lachenmann, Stravinsky, etc.

John Williams seems fairly original to me. Especially with the brass, Williams brass sections are quite recognizable.

Listen to the heroic brass passages in the music of Wagner and Bruckner and you'll see where John Williams got it from.

Gosh, why all the frustration? I always thought a discussion forum was about sharing and expressing opinions, arguments and ideas... And that's just what I do - I do not mince matters, but express my opinions outspokenly and sometimes they happen to be critical. So should I refrain from expressing those critical opinions just to keep people like you happy? Should we all resort to making only positive, nice and friendly comments here and talk about how nice and beautiful the world is? Without critical opinions, there would be no critical discussion. If you can't accept that, that's not my problem.

Also, it's not true that I only say the worst about everyone and everything. True, I have pretty harshly criticized some composers. But I have praised others, such as Carter, Boulez, Stockhausen, Ferneyhough, Lachenmann, Stravinsky, etc.

Listen to the heroic brass passages in the music of Wagner and Bruckner and you'll see where John Williams got it from.

Funny you should say that... I've listened extensively to Wagner and Bruckner and as far as I'm concerned, neither sound a thing like Williams... hmm.

Other than by soundtrack fans, I don't think the Raiders March was ever considered "great music".

It's a fun piece, and successful "grand style" romantic music, but it's far from being "revered as a great work".

As for Shore, Silvestri and company, there are FAR greater composers around now than those you named. You are limiting your experience of music to FILM composers.

I would say the composers you have listed, other than John Williams, have written some great film soundtracks, but nothing in the way of concert music.

The only "film composer" at this time I can think of, other than Williams, who has composed truly "great" concert works is Elliot Goldenthal. However, even his filmscores display the same colourations as his concert works. I happen to enjoy his concert works AND his filmscores immensely.

Anyways, all that to say, there's some incredible music being composed, and if you spent more time listening to non-film music you might just discover this.

Just check out the American composers of concert music that lived at the beginning and middle of the 20th century to see the start of a great school of music. And from there it's an easy jump to trace the footsteps of those great composers' students and disciples who are active composers right now.

Bad idea to patronize filmscore fans... in a filmscore discussion.

I don't think anyone here "limits their experience to FILM composers" only, and I don't agree with the way you dismiss it.

For instance Howard Shore.

Most of his scores are minimalist and arcane, non-cheesy music.

Did you even bother looking up his concert works?

Or those of Jerry Goldsmith?

and yes, John Williams? (don't throw that name around like some sort of bad word, he *IS* a good composer).

Point being, don't patronize, this debate was initiated to discuss film composers so don't be surprised if it focuses on them.

If you wanna divert it to more forms of music, by all means please do - without the attitude.

Omri.

I think QcCowboy is completely right. You can't confuse a symphonic masterpiece with a theme from a film, otherwise tbh you're not showing due respect to the great composers who may have spent an entire year on just one opus.

Raiders to me is a great piece of music that I enjoy and admire, but it's not a masterpiece in the vain of Shostakovich's 7th symphony for example. I think that's the point he was trying to get across.

However, the rest of the Indianna jones soundtrack, as far as I can recall is exceptional, and only heightened by the inclusion of a brilliant theme, something that is missing from many recent film scores and tv scores.

As for Shore, Silvestri and company, there are FAR greater composers around now than those you named. You are limiting your experience of music to FILM composers.

Absolutely right! I don't want to seem rude but Shore and Zimmer are pushing film music in the wrong direction (for me at least!). I have no problem with hearing catchy thematic material in films, but I would personally see filmscores and (tv scores) moved back a notch to the 'good ole days'!

Bad idea to patronize filmscore fans... in a filmscore discussion.

I really think you need to go back, and take the time to reread what I wrote in this thread.

There is NOTHING patronizing in my participation here regarding filmscores.

If you think that I'm being patronizing, then please, PM me and we'll discuss it. You'll see that I am the LAST person who will look down on film music or film composers.

If you can't accept that someone might have a different appreciation of different film composers than you do, then that is really your problem.

I don't want to seem rude but Shore and Zimmer are pushing film music in the wrong direction (for me at least!). I have no problem with hearing catchy thematic material in films, but I would personally see filmscores and (tv scores) moved back a notch to the 'good ole days'!

Shore?

Catchy thematic material?

I think you've only seen "Lord of the Rings" from Shore or you wouldn't have said that.

I really think you need to go back, and take the time to reread what I wrote in this thread.

There is NOTHING patronizing in my participation here regarding filmscores.

If you think that I'm being patronizing, then please, PM me and we'll discuss it. You'll see that I am the LAST person who will look down on film music or film composers.

If you can't accept that someone might have a different appreciation of different film composers than you do, then that is really your problem.

I accept the difference in taste - it's what makes music fun.

What I do not accept is the way you chose to express it.

Personally... I'm not a Zimmer fan, and not a Silvestri fan.

But I do find great interest in Shore's work, and great beauty in Williams'.

So what if it didn't take a year to write?

It doesn't belittle it to me, all it means is that the musician is a professional who can handle time tables.

Does that make him less worthy to listen to?

I accept the difference in taste - it's what makes music fun.

What I do not accept is the way you chose to express it.

Personally... I'm not a Zimmer fan, and not a Silvestri fan.

But I do find great interest in Shore's work, and great beauty in Williams'.

So what if it didn't take a year to write?

It doesn't belittle it to me, all it means is that the musician is a professional who can handle time tables.

Does that make him less worthy to listen to?

I don't get it...

can you PLEASE quote me where I belittle Williams?

can you PLEASE quote where I said that Williams was less worthy to listen to?

And by the way, I happen to be a HUGE fan of Silvestri. I've had constant correspondence with his wife over the last 10 years.

And I'm a great admirer of Chris Young's scores.

I just don't get this 'tude you're aiming my way.

I REALLY think you need to reread what I wrote. At NO point have I dimimished filmscores.

That said: I think I am realistic about their place in the order of value as compared to concert works. Does that mean I demean them? No, it doesn't.

I love a good hamburger. Is it of the same culinary order as a 5 star meal cooked by the best chef in the world? No, but does that demean it?

The only way to demean it is to not be aware of its real value. All music has its value, whether it's Madonna, or the Beetles, or Beethoven, or Star Wars. I've never "looked down on" ANY music. Can you really say the same? My music library contains all of the above, plus hundreds of filmscores, hundreds of country albums, dozens of broadway scores (including the actual book/score), some dance, some pop, some rock, some jazz standards, some of everything (except rap.. and even then, I think some of my dance albums have a bit of rap mixed in).

I do NOT understand your aggresive reaction to what I write. It's as if you've decided in advance to disagree with anything I say, regardless of what I AM saying.

Please do NOT confuse me with GianLuca. He and I are apparently polar opposites when it comes to musical criticism.

I don't get it...

can you PLEASE quote me where I belittle Williams?

can you PLEASE quote where I said that Williams was less worthy to listen to?

And by the way, I happen to be a HUGE fan of Silvestri. I've had constant correspondence with his wife over the last 10 years.

And I'm a great admirer of Chris Young's scores.

I just don't get this 'tude you're aiming my way.

I REALLY think you need to reread what I wrote. At NO point have I dimimished filmscores.

That said: I think I am realistic about their place in the order of value as compared to concert works. Does that mean I demean them? No, it doesn't.

I love a good hamburger. Is it of the same culinary order as a 5 star meal cooked by the best chef in the world? No, but does that demean it?

The only way to demean it is to not be aware of its real value. All music has its value, whether it's Madonna, or the Beetles, or Beethoven, or Star Wars. I've never "looked down on" ANY music. Can you really say the same? My music library contains all of the above, plus hundreds of filmscores, hundreds of country albums, dozens of broadway scores (including the actual book/score), some dance, some pop, some rock, some jazz standards, some of everything (except rap.. and even then, I think some of my dance albums have a bit of rap mixed in).

I do NOT understand your aggresive reaction to what I write. It's as if you've decided in advance to disagree with anything I say, regardless of what I AM saying.

Please do NOT confuse me with GianLuca. He and I are apparently polar opposites when it comes to musical criticism.

I agree with this.

I've written for plays several times, and while I personally enjoy the music that I wrote for that, it is generally of lesser quality than my 'serious' concert works. I have no problem admitting it - If I were to only score music for plays, then I think I would be generally not as strong of a composer as I am now.

I think when an outside source dictates the music (such as a film, or a temp track) then the music is overall weaker, though not necessarily worse, than when the music is made to be music. There are times when outside sources (such as inspiration from a book or movie) can strengthen the music, but that's a different concept entirely.

I don't get it...

can you PLEASE quote me where I belittle Williams?

can you PLEASE quote where I said that Williams was less worthy to listen to?

And by the way, I happen to be a HUGE fan of Silvestri. I've had constant correspondence with his wife over the last 10 years.

And I'm a great admirer of Chris Young's scores.

I just don't get this 'tude you're aiming my way.

I REALLY think you need to reread what I wrote. At NO point have I dimimished filmscores.

That said: I think I am realistic about their place in the order of value as compared to concert works. Does that mean I demean them? No, it doesn't.

I love a good hamburger. Is it of the same culinary order as a 5 star meal cooked by the best chef in the world? No, but does that demean it?

The only way to demean it is to not be aware of its real value. All music has its value, whether it's Madonna, or the Beetles, or Beethoven, or Star Wars. I've never "looked down on" ANY music. Can you really say the same? My music library contains all of the above, plus hundreds of filmscores, hundreds of country albums, dozens of broadway scores (including the actual book/score), some dance, some pop, some rock, some jazz standards, some of everything (except rap.. and even then, I think some of my dance albums have a bit of rap mixed in).

I do NOT understand your aggresive reaction to what I write. It's as if you've decided in advance to disagree with anything I say, regardless of what I AM saying.

Please do NOT confuse me with GianLuca. He and I are apparently polar opposites when it comes to musical criticism.

Ok,

I have reread your original post as requested, and frankly... I can't remember what it was that made me take offence and get jumpy.

Possibly because I read it at the end of a long, bad day.

My music library is also some of everything, I mostly don't rule anything out before trying it atleast once.

If I was out of tone it was probably my temper. :blush:

Good day,

Omri.

Ok,

I have reread your original post as requested, and frankly... I can't remember what it was that made me take offence and get jumpy.

Possibly because I read it at the end of a long, bad day.

My music library is also some of everything, I mostly don't rule anything out before trying it atleast once.

If I was out of tone it was probably my temper. :blush:

Good day,

Omri.

I think admitting you were wrong on the internet is one of the hardest things to do.

So kudos bro.

I agree with this.

I've written for plays several times, and while I personally enjoy the music that I wrote for that, it is generally of lesser quality than my 'serious' concert works. I have no problem admitting it - If I were to only score music for plays, then I think I would be generally not as strong of a composer as I am now.

I think when an outside source dictates the music (such as a film, or a temp track) then the music is overall weaker, though not necessarily worse, than when the music is made to be music. There are times when outside sources (such as inspiration from a book or movie) can strengthen the music, but that's a different concept entirely.

I don't know if I agree with that.

I don't think you can say "this kind of music is stronger by nature than the other", no matter the circumstances.

What if the music was originally written as a concert work and then converted to theaterical use?

Personally, I enjoy (and am usually more content with) the works I do for theater rather then the concert ones, though it's also a matter of what mood I'm in.

Would love to hear some of your work to get perspective on who I'm talking to.

Thanks,

Omri.

Gosh, why all the frustration? I always thought a discussion forum was about sharing and expressing opinions, arguments and ideas... And that's just what I do - I do not mince matters, but express my opinions outspokenly and sometimes they happen to be critical. So should I refrain from expressing those critical opinions just to keep people like you happy? Should we all resort to making only positive, nice and friendly comments here and talk about how nice and beautiful the world is? Without critical opinions, there would be no critical discussion. If you can't accept that, that's not my problem.

Oh I can accept anything but "Gosh" why can't you accept my critisism of your public appearance in YC?

you came here and started the "I hate pop music", which inlcudes millions of songs, artists, musicians, etc.

Do you really think I'm all happy and go about frienly comments abuot anything? Really? You have NO idea!

If you don't realise how bad image you give outside that's not my problem!

and, btw "critical discussion" is not degrading your peers. ;) Think about it, shall you?

Also, it's not true that I only say the worst about everyone and everything. True, I have pretty harshly criticized some composers. But I have praised others, such as Carter, Boulez, Stockhausen, Ferneyhough, Lachenmann, Stravinsky, etc.

So you only listen to contemporary music and nothing else. That's lovely and all, but really why do you care SO much about "revealing the truth" about how rubbish Williams is according to you? Does it make such a great impact in your world?

I mean, as I said elsewhere, wouldn't it be better to spend your time trying to educate people about how amazing Carter or Ferneyhough is? rather than diminishing other composers? The point is not to make people to STOP listening to music, or to certain composers, but to educate them in order to listen to more stuff. I don't care about trying to stop people from listening to Britney all that much, unless I'm drunk and my ego is hugely high! I do care, though to show some people the beauty of contemporary music, Boulez, Messiaen, Cashian and many others.

If you haven't realised we are not exactly far apart. We both enjoy contemprary music. I also compose that and I'm active to that field (whereas I've no idea what you do really, and would be interested in knowing). We both would love to see more people to listen to contemporary music and would like to see the contemporary scene picking up a bit. I have no trouble with any of the composer names you've mentioned.

Difference is that you feel entitled to tell the world how stupid they are for liking pop music. Or that they are naive enough to think that Williams is a good composer. I don't!

I care about helping people. Providing feedback (although I'm left behind to that... too tired right now), to give my music and my scores to people so they can see and study, if interested, and ask me questions, to make points about tech issues, and provide ideas for more contemporary approaches to scores in Finale. QCC is making a masterclass in orchestration and giving FREE lessons. Robin is also making a lovely jazz masterclass. You... diminish composers, names, music.

Dunno mate, but I really prefer learning something new, that trying to forget something!

Omri: Do reread the thread cause I think you're confusing people/posts or somehow misunderstanding something...

EDIT: while typing this quite a few posts appeared. No need for Omri to do anything! heh...

All music has its value, whether it's Madonna, or the Beetles, or Beethoven, or Star Wars.

...Did somebody say Star Wars? :stoicjedi::toothygrin:

On a more serious note, that is an excellent point QC. In fact, I'll add to your brilliant analogy; Some people may consider a hamburger to taste better than a particular gourmet meal. This doesn't make the hamburger more complex than the gourmet meal, it's just a personal preference.

- though I would go with neither. It would be a chicken sandwich for me. Yum!

I would say the composers you have listed, other than John Williams, have written some great film soundtracks, but nothing in the way of concert music.

Is concert music the highest form of composing? Several genius composers wrote little of what qualifies as "concert music." For example, Wagner wrote only one symphony and then concentrated on music dramas. Tchaikovsky and Stravinsky made their careers in ballet.

@ all:

When you sum up all the criticisms leveled at film scores and film composers in this thread:

1. Few film composers write "serious" concert music.

2. They sometimes plagiarize others and themselves.

3. They rewrite temp tracks / fulfill the director's expectations rather than their own artistic vision.

4. They write to deadline.

5. They write for a target audience.

6. Film composition is "style over substance."

7. Film scores are not artistically coherent.

8. Film music is clich

The public really only listen to thematic material, therefore the public's perception of current musical-cultural trends do not need apply for an entire film. I think JW had this in mind when he wrote Star Wars and ET; at the time film scores were very jazzy and were often saturated with popular music. For Star Wars in particular, rather than pandering to current trends, he wrote a Wagnerian, Stravinskian, in my opinion masterful, soundtrack.

It just so happens to be one of the most successful film scores ever written.

The public do like to hear what they want to hear, but they often don't know what it is that they want to hear, until they hear it!

Dear Weca, why tell us so elaborately about all the music you can't appreciate when you just could have reduced your post to the core sentence "I like my circle, and it's too bad if certain schools have placed themselves outside of it". Fine, stay in your circle.

I'm not going to call these schools heretical, because such anathema is unnecessary. They have already failed. Modern "concert" music's 90 years of wandering in the wilderness is not a mistake. And despite the oft-cited defence that genius isn't understood in its time, persistent failure to convince the public that your music is worth listening to means you're doing something wrong.

Hahaha, that made me laugh, thanks.

PS: Gardener's simple and elegant reply there just sums up my sentiments as well. Don't like the music you don't like? Cool. How about you stop throwing scraggy at stuff you don't appreciate, thank you.

I listen to plenty of stuff outside my definition of music, I just don't think it's music.

And BTW it's not just me who "can't appreciate it." That's modern music's problem. It's the height of snobbery for disciples of those composers to then turn around and dump on film music for being successful. It probably hurts to hear but those composers have a lot to learn from the best film composers. They are the ones who are keeping music alive.

In fact recording film scores is one of the remaining raison d'etres of the symphony orchestra. The other reason is playing concert music by dead guys.

If John Williams and Beethoven/Wagner/Strauss disappeared from the pages of history tomorrow, I promise you the London Symphony Orchestra would not stick around just to play concerts of Corigliano and Crumb.

I listen to plenty of stuff outside my definition of music, I just don't think it's music.

now you're talking trash - only to make people angry.

No, I'm really not. Why do you think I listen? Cuz I think it's creative, or cool, or interesting, or meditative. But a sound effect can make you go wow too. I think Gesang der J

I listen to plenty of stuff outside my definition of music, I just don't think it's music.

And BTW it's not just me who "can't appreciate it." That's modern music's problem. It's the height of snobbery for disciples of those composers to then turn around and dump on film music for being successful. It probably hurts to hear but those composers have a lot to learn from the best film composers. They are the ones who are keeping music alive.

In fact recording film scores is one of the remaining raison d'etres of the symphony orchestra. The other reason is playing concert music by dead guys.

If John Williams and Beethoven/Wagner/Strauss disappeared from the pages of history tomorrow, I promise you the London Symphony Orchestra would not stick around just to play concerts of Corigliano and Crumb.

Comedy goldmine, no seriously.

I love the "WELL, I'm with the MAJORITY, so I'm RIGHT!" argument. It's retarded, but hilarious all the same.

Nah, it's wholly possible that in 200 years Williams will be forgotten and Boulez will be held up as the underappreciated genius of our century.

Just don't think it's likely because, as much as human culture changes, human ears and brains stay the same...

I assume I have no human ears and brains then? Wow, I'm an alien!

You speak of snobbishness, without realising that it's exactly what you're doing here. There are people out there who actually like listening to Boulez, who find it beautiful, touching music. Crazy, huh? So please stop using that ridiculous term "the audience". There isn't one audience.

I don't really care who'll be famous in 200 years, but I, with my inhuman ears and no brain, like to listen to Boulez right now. I could list so many pieces now, from Lachenmann's "Gran Torso", over Stockhausen's "Gruppen", to Boulez' "Le Marteau sans ma