Female Composers/Musicians?

lol why all the drama?

because we are dramatists.

youngdramatists.com

ok, well, my take on the subject: (or rather, my experience with the subject)

There are FAR more women musicians than men.

If I look at either of the major orchestras in Montr

Yikes, Engineer was completely joking, and mentioned he was being sarcastic because he DOESN'T believe what he said, and certainly wasn't trying to cause conflict.

Anyways, if there IS a dearth of female composers that DOESN'T seem to be going away over time, then why can't the fact that female and male brains are different be responsible? Even the most hardcore feminists have to agree that our brains function differently, and are certainly not just equally blank slates. As much as I believe that women are as capable as men and should be completely equal to men in society, since *most* of you are proponents of evolution, you have to admit that men and women are evolutionarily programmed to work in different ways. And if you think I'm being sexist for implying that women are programmed to take care of babies, well, I'm also implying that men are programmed to be killing machines. Whatever, neither men nor women just fill that niche anymore. The point is that we DO function differently, and I don't see how that is "absurd." And if we deny it, we end up with conundrums like "why are there practically 0 female composers on this site, even though men and women are exactly the same exactly exactly exactly exactly?"

Just because females have established themselves in many previously male dominated areas doesn't mean there aren't still certain social anachronisms where males and females are (while maybe not forced anymore) still directed into taking different roles. While I don't deny that there are some differences between female and male brains, it would be wrong to simply attribute all differences that still exist today to these differences, as it's a clear fact that socially/mentally we're still quite a bit away from a true emancipation. (Why else would women and man wear different clothing etc.? Why would a man wearing lipstick immediately be regarded as "gay"? Etc.)

That there currently exist less female than male composers does in no way mean that it's something that has directly to do with our brains. (It is possible of course, but it's dangerous to draw such conclusions overhastily, since if it isn't the case, we're just cementing the status quo.) The fact that there are a lot of female musicians in other areas than composition but not so much in composition doesn't mean that it can't have social reasons. It may simply be that composition is still regarded as an even more "artistic" profession than a performing artist, where old social prejudices play a much greater role, since it's so subjective.

Yes, composition is an area where male dominance seems to diminish slower than in other areas, but it is diminishing and I'm certain that in 50 years the difference in numbers will be neglectable. At least I hope so.

I actually wondered quite a bit why there are so few females on this forums, as it doesn't quite match my personal experience with young people starting to compose. Before I studied composition I was in a composition course for children and youths quite a long time where there mostly were more girls than boys. And interestingly even during just the 11 years I was in this course (yes, I'm crazy) the balance shifted a lot. It started out with three boys and in the end it consisted of somewhere between 10 and 20 children/youths, most of them girls. Of course that doesn't say anything statistically, but it just demonstrates the experience I've had. (And I have already mentioned that in my composition class now, while there are still a few more males, it is rather balanced.)

well, I've taught in a youth music camp, and I have to say that there were VERY few girls interested in the composition workshops I gave. I always ended up with a class full of boys, with maybe 1 girl.

This is also relatively recently. I don't know about social imperative affecting those choices here. I think these kids were quite free to choose as their natural inclinations went.

Not that I truly believe this, but you could put forth the statement that there are more women musicians because music is generally a collaborative art, while there are fewer women composers because composition is a solitary (usually) art. I know few women who like to 'do their own thing' (which is basically required to get any composing done) for large stretches of time... but I know a lot of guys who thrive off of it. On the opposite side, guys tend not to work well in groups (even in organized sports!), while women seem to be much better at that.

Just food for thought. I'm not weighing in on the issue either way.

Personally I'm surprised that there isn't more women involved in composition, after all they are quite the emotional creatures. But anyway..

I quite agree. I apologize I didn't read the full thread but it seems generally women tend to lean towards being performers while men lead towards composition.

And it's been proven time and time again, men's brains HAVE been measured to be stronger at handling abstract notions better then women, where women have shown great ability to tag/arrange/remember things better then men, which of course makes perfect sense why men seem to like composing and women like to perform.

Then there's that whole "Men are hunters, problem solvers, and women are gatherers" argument but hell if i'm going to open THAT can of worms.

And it's been proven time and time again, men's brains HAVE been measured to be stronger at handling abstract notions better then women, where women have shown great ability to tag/arrange/remember things better then men, which of course makes perfect sense why men seem to like composing and women like to perform.

Yes, and it has also been shown that the usual examples for these things (like rotating three dimensional objects in your mind) are learnable and not something you're "just born with", and therefore are to a great deal dependant on your upbringing, socialisation, etc. Another example is the test to ask people to name as much words as possible starting with a certain letter. Traditionally women always did better at such tests. However, in the last thirty years the results of men and women in these tests have gotten closer and closer, which shows exactly that it's not a genetic absolute.

Just saying.

You're right, nothing is stopping them from learning it, and nothing is stopping them from being better.

But it's not a secret you have to work harder at things you're not naturally good at. Upbringing is an ideal area to argue about because it has the potential to destroy any argument in it's tracks.

"well, if they raised her on nothing but composition, she'd be a great composer!"

this is true, but it is also true that maybe she won't. Maybe she'll hate the field and be sloppy at it. Upbringing plays an important role but doesn't give any kind of real value.

Why is it that 90+% of students in the math oriented fields are men? Why is it that a HUGE majority of builders/carpenters/architects are men?

Why is it that there is a very large spiral of increases of women doctors?

Mayhap it's upbringing, but do any of you deny that there are traits in women/men that would have brought them closer to that profession?

If you can't seem to grab math related concepts as quickly as others around you, are you going to compete with them in that field? What if you had something they couldn't do? Still going to go on with the math route?

Face it, you take what you can do naturally, excel, and then dominate with it.

Can I get involved in this?

Erm, well, speaking as a woman I both agree and disagree with many of the things said so far...:whistling:

My school music class is male orientated, it has to be said, but actually the most attentive students are the girls. I don't know whether it's the age we're at or what, but the boys seem to not be able to concentrate, whereas the girls will make notes.

Music being an art form, I would have thought woman would be more prominent in the field (such as in drama).

Many jobs nowadays are dominated by men, in my opinion, because that is the stereotype that people associate with them (Plumbing, for instance) and maybe the same can be said for music? If I was asked to name a famous composer, a woman would not spring to mind, so I think when one chooses a career path that this may have some influence.

I personally find compostition one of the most nautral things that comes to me, and I love the idea of creating something by problem solving. Maybe that's just 'cos I'm less of a girl than i thought :D

You're right, nothing is stopping them from learning it, and nothing is stopping them from being better.

But it's not a secret you have to work harder at things you're not naturally good at.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I didn't say "men are naturally better at this stuff than women, but with enough training women can learn it too." My point is that studies who show that a majority of men does something differently than a majority of women do NOT mean it's something genetic, as most of these traits have been learned, through socialisation. It's simply not true that men are born with a better ability to rotate 3D objects and women are born with a better ability to name lots of words beginning with a D. All these have been shown to be mostly acquired abilities. The anatomic differences between the brains (which do exist) have almost no effect on the capabilities of these brains or the results they produce.

As Corbin said, the important reason why there's a difference in numbers of females and males in certain areas are mostly social. Otherwise this proportion wouldn't change at all, would it? But it does. (Even if slowly.)

Not in the field of music maybe but there are SOME fields in which men would, with or without social prejudice populate. Occupations that are labor intensive for example. If women's bodies were built stronger then men's, we see a lot more of them at construction sites.

But these are all very basic principles.

And Corbin, I doubt any of us are so blind as to not know of these other properties. To assume otherwise is quite ignorant on your behalf. We KNOW that there is all this other stuff, but the argument here in my opinion is trying to tackle the question from an angle outside these borders.

Is it really ALL social prejudice? My opinion is that it isn't. After all social prejudice is like stereotypes. It begins with a grain of truth and then is blown out of proportion.

Many jobs nowadays are dominated by men, in my opinion, because that is the stereotype that people associate with them (Plumbing, for instance) and maybe the same can be said for music? If I was asked to name a famous composer, a woman would not spring to mind, so I think when one chooses a career path that this may have some influence.

I think that's less of a stereotype and more of the fact that there are so so so few notable female composers, which has more to do with historical societal roles for women that have only recently been broken/challenged.

In all honesty the reasoning behind that lack of female composers is, as most things are, a combination of all reasons. Lack of women permitted into the field throughout history certainly contributes - women have had only a half-century (ish), wheras men have had since the 1600s (and earlier!). Thus, there are more notable male composers.

But with over 50 years to break into the field, you'd think there'd currently be more of a balance between male and female composers, yet that still doesn't seem to be the case - though the gap is shrinking. Thus, there must be another reason, which brings in the biological argument. Even if you don't believe these "women are more organized/ men are better problem solvers" studies, you'd be hard pressed to refute the fact that on average, men are stronger than women due fully to biological reasons. If this is true, then MAYBE men have a better predisposition to composing - who knows?

Anyway, the short answer is: all of the above, and as with most things, time will see to it that a balance will eventually be struck.

I change my mind on anything I have said about female musicians.

Sex has nothing to do with it.

Lili Boulanger

Nadia Boulanger

two sisters with incredible biographies...and compositional abilities.

Miriam Hyde (from what ive heard from her output, she is very very very good)...and shes australian :P

I dont know any others, but I see that sex has nothing to do with anything...

no...i dont want to debate with you.

it was musical men who paved for other musical men. women are still trying to find their own music. if it was us women who dominated musical history, then perhaps we would have come up with a totally different kind of music that suits our own way of composing.

Unsuk Chin. Also, Barbara Harbach, an internationally recognized composer who happens to live here in St. Louis.