Sondheim's Sweeney Todd

Hey guys, I know I haven't posted in a while, but now I've got more time cuz schools finally over!

Anyway, have any of you ever heard Sweeney Todd? I just saw the movie reproduction of it which it I thought was unbelievable. Not only is the cinematography horrifyingly beautiful, I think the music is ingenious, any thoughts on Sondheim and his music? I just discovered him through Sweeney Todd, and I think atleast this play is unbelievable. I love the mixture of the dark harmonies in the orchestration with the melodious vocals, it makes for such a remarkable contrast. Not to mention the lyrics, they are so poetic and clever, and really attention grabbing.

favorite scene from the show,

pretty women, plus his epiphany

Don't miss the wistling haha its cooooool

YouTube - Sweeney Todd - Epiphany (Johnny Depp)

Well, if you want thoughts on Sweeney, I'm your man. I've conducted it.

It's a pure masterpiece.

If you want thoughts on Burton's film of it, well, I'm NOT your man.

I don't think he did it justice.

It's a bit of a shame, his film is well done, the singing is dreadful, the cuts were not intelligently done.

Burton doesn't understand musicals. He doesn't like chorus in musicals. He thinks they're unnatural. So WHY, oh why timmy boy did you decide to do a musical where the chorus is such an important factor?

Sadly, if all you saw was the film version, you saw a butchered version of Sondheim's masterpiece, with all of the dark humour excised and replaced with a constant lugubrious tone which does not fit Sweeney at all.

Burton's idea was to bring the focus back on to Sweeney himself. But the musical IS about how Mrs. Lovett manipulated him and controlled him, and really, in the end turned him into the killer he became.

The pacing of the film as brilliant, and I would expect no less from Tim Burton. And yeah, it has a really "cool" look to it, like all of his films. Except this isn't a movie based on an original idea by Burton. He really should have respected Sondheim a bit more.

And yeah, blah blah, I know Sondheim had input into the film. But quite honestly, I don't trust his judgement in this particular case. He's been under a particular sort of stress these last few years, and is probably showing a few signs of some manic-depression.

If people can sit through 3 hours of Kate Winslet fawning over Leonardo DiCrapio before hitting a chunk of ice, I'm CERTAIN people would have sat through an honest and respectful FULL version of Sweeney Todd with actual SINGERS.

Let's be perfectly honest here: I like Johnny Depp, but he ain't no singer. And Mrs. Tim Burton? She is no singer either. And Borat? And Snape? None of them could actually HANDLE the musical material.

The scene that bothered me the most was "have a little priest". They did the whole thing in dead pan. The cuts to that song were great, and I totally agree with them, it's an overly long comedy number... except in the play it serves as the grande finale to act I.

But watching Depp and HBC do the whole number with their zombie eyes and not a single sign of humour? Come on! The damned song is a HOOT! It's SUPPOSED to be funny. And vicious! And macabre!

ANYWAYS.......

YEAH! this musical is a pure masterpiece. I have given lectures on it. The prosody is brilliant, the rhyme schemes are ingenius, the double and triple entendres are amazing.

And musically, it's incredible how much mileage Sondheim gets out of a minimum of musical material (unlike another broadway composer who shall remain nameless and who likes to write in MPH - that's melodies per hour *cough*Webber*cough*)

Thanks for your quick response. I'm afraid the movie was the first time I encountered this masterpiece, and as bad as the actors may be as singers, (although I don't think all of them were that bad) I still think Sondheim's music shows through. And I found that scene quite darkly hilarious, but thats just me. And let's not forget the movie orchestra, which I personally felt was MAGNIFICENT. This was actually my first encounter with Sondheim. I have heard South Pacific and few others, but I've never had much of an interest in musicals. I believe Sweeney Todd has changed that haha, I want to write a musical now! Is there a particular recording of this that you would recommend? Maybe the 79 version? Amazon.com: Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street (1979 Original Broadway Cast): Stephen Sondheim, Len Cariou, Angela Lansbury: Music

Also, I am just beginning to learn how this whole process works concerning the orchestration of musicals. I don't really understand how someone could write a piece and let another person do the orchestration, even with time constraints. Did they collaborate closely, Tunic and Sondheim, or how does it work? I feel like the music, especially for sweeney todd, when written by sondheim, was written with the orchestration in mind, because it just seems to work so perfectly. How does someone complete a composition for someone else, I don't get it!

Also, I've dabbled a bit in song writing, any ideas or comments would be great.. yeah, the performance is a bit shoddy, but I attached the score for you.

Thanks

Mahlon Berv – Listen free at Last.fm, the songs are Daffodils and The Bells, track 2

Mahlon

bellsbaritone.pdf

Daffodils.pdf

Sweeny's music is fantastic. The atmosphere is just spooky and quite amazing. I own the new broadway cast recording with Michael Cerveris and Patti LuPone.

As well as anything else composed by Sondheim.

He is god! Last night he won a Lifetime Achivement Tony Award.

GO SONDHEIM.

Wow I see what you mean. It's quite funny indeed YouTube - "A Little Priest" from Sweeney Todd

ALthough I think Burton's version is interesting in a different, darker way.

compare, YouTube - [ Sweeney Todd ] ~ A little Priest, by Depp & Bonham Carter

George Hearn has a more traditional voice, but I think depp's kind of rock-like inflections are cool, maybe it's not as authentic, but I like it still.

Seems like the orchestration is a bit different too.

Also interesting contrast,

George Hearn- Ephiphany- YouTube - Sweeney Todd - Epiphany

Johnny Depp- Epiphany- YouTube - Sweeney Todd - Epiphany (Johnny Depp)

I think they do it justice in their own ways. Depp for film, Hearn for the stage.

It was nice to see one of my favorite musicals on film, but the film truly didn't do it any justice. An interesting adaptation, but lacking any brilliance of the original.

I think the film version is marvelous in the fact that Burton had a target audience different then Sondheim's original intent. Burton brought the masterpiece to a larger crowd.

I don't think the film was a disappointment. The film was really, really great. But no film can be as great as the stage version. I do wish they had used actual singers, but then it would have been an absolute flop in theaters, so what can you do.

I don't think the film was a disappointment. The film was really, really great. But no film can be as great as the stage version. I do wish they had used actual singers, but then it would have been an absolute flop in theaters, so what can you do.

soo true...

I thought the film was good enough that if I absolutely had to see Sweeney Todd THAT SECOND and no live productions were around, I could watch it and get my fix.

That said, Helena Bonham Carter's choice of playing Mrs. Lovett as a victim rather than a villain? HORRENDOUS. And her singing is anaemic. I liked Johnny Depp okay until he decided to turn "Epiphany" into a Jonathan Larson song... Sasha Cohen can play the character of Pirelli well enough to cover his vocal flaws, and Alan Rickman is creepy enough. Thank goodness for Toby, I say.

The one brilliant moment of the film: "By the Sea." SO hilarious.

I'm a huge fan of the musical, and also a huge fan of Tim Burton. I loved the movie. I never listen to the soundtrack. I actually find it rather unlistenable. For the most part I really liked the performances, but without the visuals to complete the picture, the singing just doesn't hold up.

I thought much of the supporting cast was quite good. Timothy Spall was mercifully spared the high notes of "Ladies in Their Sensibilities" and created a beautifully slimy Beadle. Alan Rickman was creepy and slimy, but also added the appropriate amount of sympathy to the character. I feel like he could have played the role onstage, despite having vocals that weren't top notch. He was among the better singers in the movie. The two young lovers sang beautifully, if a little "opera lite." I really enjoyed Cohen's performance, acting, singing, the works (and I've sung Pirelli in the original key). Laura Michelle Kelly was, in my estimation, the best in the entire movie.

I didn't mind the cuts to the score terribly, though there were moments I wish they had kept.

If you want to see a stellar cast perform the entire score, I suggest you get the DVD of the Lonny Prince directed concert starring George Hearn and Patti LuPone. It includes a symphony orchestra and a full opera ensemble, as well as a mixture of musical theatre and opera stars in the main roles.

Thanks for your quick response. I'm afraid the movie was the first time I encountered this masterpiece, and as bad as the actors may be as singers, (although I don't think all of them were that bad) I still think Sondheim's music shows through. And I found that scene quite darkly hilarious, but thats just me. And let's not forget the movie orchestra, which I personally felt was MAGNIFICENT. This was actually my first encounter with Sondheim. I have heard South Pacific and few others, but I've never had much of an interest in musicals. I believe Sweeney Todd has changed that haha, I want to write a musical now! Is there a particular recording of this that you would recommend? Maybe the 79 version? Amazon.com: Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street (1979 Original Broadway Cast): Stephen Sondheim, Len Cariou, Angela Lansbury: Music

Also, I am just beginning to learn how this whole process works concerning the orchestration of musicals. I don't really understand how someone could write a piece and let another person do the orchestration, even with time constraints. Did they collaborate closely, Tunic and Sondheim, or how does it work? I feel like the music, especially for sweeney todd, when written by sondheim, was written with the orchestration in mind, because it just seems to work so perfectly. How does someone complete a composition for someone else, I don't get it!

Also, I've dabbled a bit in song writing, any ideas or comments would be great.. yeah, the performance is a bit shoddy, but I attached the score for you.

Thanks

Mahlon Berv – Listen free at Last.fm, the songs are Daffodils and The Bells, track 2

Mahlon

Actually, I wouldn't recommend the original recording. I hate Len Cariou, who is Sweeney in that recording. I would recommend getting a DVD of the broadway version, or even the DVD of the later concert version with Patty LuPone and George Hearn. If you really want a CD, I would recommend getting the two-CD 2005 version, but keep in mind it is minimally orchestrated (although brilliantly). I like that CD much better than the original.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I just listened to the original actually. I was quite astonished just how much was cut out of the movie. The chorus is an integral part of the piece, and hearing the original makes me realize this. I also obtained a pdf of the score through some clever downloading, if anyone is interested in it let me know. Cariou may not be your favorite singer, but he sure sings better than Depp, anyway I've realized just how badly some of the music was sung in the movie, because the movie was my first chance to see sweeney todd, and then I listened to the original afterwards. Anyway, cheers to them reviving such a remarkable work of art, even though it wasn't as good as the original.

Cariou's beautiful voice, mixed with the evil and rage that simmered just below the surface makes him my favorite Sweeney, and I have not had the pleasure of seeing him perform live. However, I heard that Hal Prince never went onstage with him to give him direction, because he was afraid. That's an actor!

Just a note to all that said the singing was bad in the Burton film reproduction...

It's true that most of them are not professionally trained singers, but everyone of them had to audition in front of Sondheim himself before they were cast, Johnny Depp was the only actor that came 'attached' to the project. Besides I don't think it would have had the same effect if they were proper singers.

I've seen a lot of stage production musicals and then their film counter-parts and so far the films have never been as good. But having watched the live Sweeney Todd I personally liked the film much better. Maybe it's just that you can get a bit more, for lack of a better word, 'intimate' with the characters.

And Sondheim also said in an interview that he liked what Burton did with alot of the songs and said that he loved Burton's take on the song 'Epiphany.'

Anyways maybe this is just my procrastination towards my uni work talking but I'd best leave it there me thinks, in general, Sweeney Todd is just great and Sondheim rocks!

Very interesting article, especially considering the other discussion we were having about the role of the voice and the role of lyrics in music: Sweeney Todd - Johnny Depp - Music - New York Times

Interestingly enough, I remember Sondheim talking about Cerveris in the revival, and saying that he didn't have the low notes early on, and as the process continued, the low notes became stronger. He said that this was in part cerveris becoming more comfortable with the material, but he credited it more to Cerveris getting into character. He said that once Cerveris wasn't thinking so much about the notes specifically and just acting the music, the notes came more fluidly.

very good article, fascinating idea about the difference between emphasizing the sound versus emphasizing word diction. Where the stage version with real singers gains in its power and vocal beauty, the film version gains in its intimate, close up nature, as well as what I believe is some gorgeous cinematography, and realistic although I admit (hyperbolic) murder scenes, that is something you just cannot do on stage. All in all I love them both. Whats great about a work of art so original and magnificent such as Sweeney Todd is that it can be interpreted in so many different ways, and I think that's one of the most beautiful aspects of art in general.

Mahlon

I saw a filming of the first Broadway production of Sweeney Todd on ON-TV (pretty much the first cable TV channel in the US) around 1980.

Sweeney Todd was the first "musical" I ever saw/heard about which I actually found myself thinking, "this isn't a musical...it's an opera." In the original there is almost no spoken dialogue, and the drama of the music transcends traditional musical theatre.

I don't think I can bear the thought of seeing the film version, having seen that visceral, gut-wrenching Broadway original.

I find it so fascinating that people always think there's less dialogue in the original musical than there actually is. There are full scenes in the musical, there just happens to be a lot of underscoring. The same thing happens very often with another Sondheim musical, Passion. The writing of scene into song is so seamless, that it feels like it's all sung. Passion does has almost constant music, and even more dialogue than Sweeney. But there's not the same feeling that other musicals have that people stop talking, music starts, they start singing, and then the song ends and they wait for applause. It's very integrated, not only in the plot, but in presentation.