16 > 12

hell-o

we all know: music is trivial. however in some eastern countries they use 16 instead of just 12 tones.

what do you think about it?

16 is more symetric 2^4, 4x4, imagine 13-tone dissonances.

still you can distinguish every tone.

16-tone music.

If someone wants to create a new form of music with 213 tones, he has no clue.

I think 16 would be an improvement.

I use a so called Tracker to compose in 12 Tone. I can read a Tracker if you will. But its impossible to compose in Arabic Scale.

Can your software switch, is it flexible enough?

If you use pencil and paper, can YOU switch to 16?

do you think 12 is better?

Eftos

I think they are different.

And that's it.

thanks for your reply.

as you are a violinist, to you the difference is minimal. plain chant stays plain chant.

what i have in mind are orchestral works, polyphony, polytonality, dissonances.

but i have an other question, would you have to change your instrument?

Could you play those music with your violin?

Wouldn't it sound horribly out of tune and unpleasant?

Wouldn't it sound horribly out of tune and unpleasant?

Only to someone very used to 12 tone equal temperament. Who knows, it might be very interesting though. I think for now I'll stick with my 12 tones though thank you very much. I don't think there'll be any huge audiences for 16 tone music :P

If you want to experiment with various scales/tuning, there's a pretty nifty program called Scala:

Huygens-Fokker Foundation, centre for microtonal music | Stichting Huygens-Fokker, centrum voor microtonale muziek

1/3 of the notes (the diminished seventh based on the "tonic") will be the same between 16 and 12 tone equidistant (sp?) scales, and the rest will have to be somehow divided by the performer. That will be tricky... but possible, if the composer thinks it through carefully. String players are trained to play in 12-tone equal temperment; but are certainly capable of playing in others. They will just need to know where to put their fingers, and that's the tricky part, since they will probably not be able to hear the intervals. Wind playing can bend pitches down, and use alternate fingerings, but it will be really tricky.

Harry Partch and Lou Harrison used tunings other than the 12-tone equal temperment; take a look at what they did to get their music playable. Harrison, in a lot of the music of his that i've seen, he's like "Please please please play this in just intonation, but if you really have to, you can play it in equal temperment, i guess.". Partch had to invent a gazillion instruments for his 43-tone scale. There's a documentary about him on youtube: YouTube - Harry Partch - BBC Documentary - Part 1 of 6

Um, microtonality or different tonalities are a lot easier on string instruments than others./

Only if the player has a good ear and good training in this respect though. The more microtonal the music gets the harder it is to play it on string instruments (and winds to a lesser degree) without unconsciously "tuning" your notes to more familiar ones. It is of course a lot more trouble to retune an entire piano, but it allows you to be extremely detailed in your tuning desires without being betrayed by the "musician's auto-correcting ear". A composer I know bases all his compositions on extremely complex tuning systems and he rarely writes for anything other than the piano for this reason.

(Of course electronics are even more idiomatic for this, but that's something different. And I wonder whether you could apply frets to string instruments for such purposes, at least for large ones like the double bass, where it was customary at least till the end of the 18th century to use frets anyways.)

And I wonder whether you could apply frets to string instruments for such purposes, at least for large ones like the double bass, where it was customary at least till the end of the 18th century to use frets anyways.)

There's a piece by Kevin Volans, called White Man Sleeps, which is based on African folk music, and was originally for (i think) 2 harpsichords, percussion and viola da gamba. Gamba has movable gut frets (which is a total pain when you're a poor beginner trying to learn, btw), so Volans has the viol player move the frets to an African tuning. In the later arrangement for the Kronos 4tet, the piece is played in "normal" tuning.

I don't know how practical frets are for instruments that don't usually have them (not saying that they aren't practical, i just have no idea...). Thoughts, string players?

I wonder about those colored tape things that beginners put on their fingerboards. It might be confusing for 16-tone scales, but for scales with fewer pitches per octave, it might be helpful. I dunno, i've never really played a string instrument enough to know.

Omg... You just mentioned Lou Harrison...

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Marry me.

Oh, and erm... Corbin dear, I'm not a mister...

Oh well, I'm fine with it.

Marry me! I'll enjoy the fringe benefits of marriage that I can't have regardless :)

Same here :P