Composing for a Living?

i never thought so many people went through those subways!

:O

6 grand a day, wow lol that's... uhm... 1.8 million a year! (but that's if you get 6 grand a day for 25 days out of the month, if you get it for 30 days [which is the average] then you would get 2.16 million XD)

First off, do you want to write music for television or film?

If that is how you want to "compose for a living" then that is where you should go. Go to where people make TV shows and movies.

Now, if you goal is to be performed by symphony orchestras... well, that's not where the money is.

I don't know if a lot of people here actually KNOW, but... when symphony orchestra plays your piece, they don't ALSO pay you for it.

This seems to be some sort of illusion many young composers have about how the world of concert music works.

Making music from writing concert music requires that people PAY you.

People will pay you to write them something when they think you are good.

To become "good", study hard, learn all you can.

Get performed as much as possible (and sorry, but, it's all gonna either be "for free" or you may even have to PAY to get performed).

And then, maybe, miraculously, one day, someone will comission you to write for them.

There are VERY few composers who make a living by only composing.

Most have the old "back up plan" in action... teacher, athlete, porn-star, etc... (well, it depends just HOW well you want to be living)

Even royalties from concerts has been reduced so much in recent years that it's nothing more than a pittance now. You would have to have literally hundereds of works being performed by professional ensembles, in professional contexts, every week, to live off of royalty cheques.

Remember, your friend performing your piece, with no ticket price, at a local venue... that isn't going to bring in ASCAP dollars.

QCC - You hit it on the nail w/ some additions and summation --

Addition to QCC's tv and film opportunities -

Another venue in the film and TV composition world is sound production. Now it isn't easy and many jobs are centered on the coasts (NYC and LA) but it is better than relying on composition

In sum, it is a matter of taking the following steps -

STEP I -

Get very good at what you do and EXPAND into others areas. And aside from your speciality be good at a few other things (that means, don't treat keyboard harmony, improv,ear training and dictation as things you must get through --- I recall applying to be an accompanist for an intense pre-school accompanist position. Guess what I was asked to do? Harmonize a melody, improvise to a given accompaniment, sight read mostly. I didn't do too well on some of these because I never took serious training in improv, harmonization etc until recently). Another thing about this, don't be a snob - I know of a singer who was asked by a very famous tv program to stay on to do vocal sound effects after doing one gig. Guess what she refused because she thought it "beneath" her training.

concurrent w/ STEP I, STEP II

Get to know yourself --- yes, for composer - pianist teaching piano may be a good fall back but if you don't like it you will be just as miserable if you were doing another job you hate - eg a law file clerk. Figure out your interests. You may be surprised that it may only be composing. This means you have to look outside music (just think of Charles Ives who a trailblazer in music AND insurance!).

STEP III (this can start as you are in the later stages of STEPS I and II, eg your skills are getting good and you have done some exploration, expirimentation which has given you 2 -3 roads to pursue)

Get yourself known. Go to concerts and workshops and have a business card ready. If you have a website fantastic --- but you tend to get more publicity if you treat it as a blog (I believe flint does this with his updates on his compositions). An excellent example is Roger Bourland's website where he is chair at UCLA's music school, writes for film, video and tv, an essayist and blogger.

Get yourself aligned with the people who can help you and be in an environment that will benefit your composition. Join composer/music licensing publishing organizations. Join ensembles or composer consortiums IN school. Assist with other composers concerts. Set up you own group. Contact charities, event planners, businesses etc for possible funding and performance/composition opportunities. BTW, moving to LA, NYC (or some of the large cultural centers in the rest of the world) for the opportunities is not possible for all (and not entirely necessary), but there are cities with large, active arts communities.

STEP IV

Get a life. Not in the perjorative sense, but depending on your temperament, it may mean just ensuring you spend time with friends, take a vacation, relax, or do something non-musical you enjoy. Also, take in stride the times you cannot spend as much with composing and, possibly, music.

Ok, this became a HUGE post (a good deal of the advice I need to follow much more). Sorry.

i never thought so many people went through those subways!

:O

6 grand a day, wow lol that's... uhm... 1.8 million a year! (but that's if you get 6 grand a day for 25 days out of the month, if you get it for 30 days [which is the average] then you would get 2.16 million XD)

Well, that may be a bit of an exageration. But Penn Station has 600,000 every day for sure. Times Square probably has about 200,000 to 400,000 people transfering esp. between the 7 and 1 trains (lol, those of you who take that route know what I'm talking about). If you want to make real money, then become part of the MTA. With 5 million riders every day (about 1.85 billion rides annually) all at $2 a piece, that works out to $3.6 billion every year just from subways. Add another 2.4 million bus riders per day (624 million per year) giving another $1.25 billion per year. Then add the 157.9 million commuter rail riders of Long Island Railroad and Metro-North: I guestimate about another $500 million. So add all that up and the MTA gets ticket sales of about $5.35 billion.

And yet, the entity is in massive debt. :O

But that's spread out over 468 subway stations and 656 miles of tracks, 243 bus lines, and 368 rail stations and 930 miles of track. So it's a bit more broad that busking at Times Square.

:w00t:

[End tangent]

Ok, this became a HUGE post (a good deal of the advice I need to follow much more). Sorry.

no problem, I read it all and found it VERY helpful. Thanks!

oh and Justin... that made... close to no sense to me, sorry :P

Robin: Is this your real number? I'm thinking of calling you at some point! :)

Robin: Is this your real number? I'm thinking of calling you at some point! :)

HAHAHA...no.

I'll PM you my actual number, if you want ;)

I've always wanted to be three things:

1) A composer

2) A performer (in like either a) a symphonic orchestra or b) a movie orchestra type thing)

or

3) a computer geek person (like programmer)

I guess the easiest of them all would be a computer geek but I have ALWAYS loved music, I play just about everything and i've always been good at picking up instruments and learning them to a decent level within a day or two.

But then about 5 years ago, i found out about this cool amazing wonderful thing.. called composing.

I guess i just never realized that somebody has to write all that stuff that i played. I downloaded finale (back when I ran windows) and tried to write something, i can't remember what it was now, but it sounded pretty cool to me (when i was 10)

Now 5 years later I still like composing, i'm not too good but I have some general grasp of how to write stuff. I can't really put big cool sounding chords down because I have never learned them, so what I write is mostly basic and simple sounding, mostly in minor keys 'cause i like 'em (and when you compose it's what you like, who cares what everyone else thinks? =P)

So now i'm nearing 16 and just 2 more years before college where I have to decide what I want to do for the rest of my life (or at least most of my life) and since I'm pretty good on Bassoon and piano and sax I might have a good shot at some sort of scholarship (but even if I get one I'm going to Julliard, no matter what it takes [okay maybe i was kidding, but we all gotta have dreams, right? XD])

I was pondering the question of "What do I want to be when I grow up?" the other day on our 10 hour drive to the Lake of the Ozarks, and I think that what I really really would LOVE to do is compose. I don't care if I become the next John Williams or if I just write small short pieces for solo piano or if I write orchestrations that the Symphonic Orchestra plays, I want to write music for a living, and, if I don't make anything from it to actually live, I'm sure I could get a job performing somewhere. (But it would be cool to be known like some of those big composers, e.g. John Williams, 'cause he will be in his late 80s I believe once I get outta college XD)

SO, after that big long life story (which will probably not turn out that long, it just looks long in this typing thingy) I come to my question: How do you make yourself known?

I'm sure I'll be a decent composer, have have a lot more knowledge at least in composing (i'll be taking music theory next year) but once I get into college, how do I make myself known to the rest of the world (or at least the state) so people might think about hiring me?

My ultimate goal is to write for some TV show, doesn't matter what I would just love writing for a tv show.

and, like I do in just about every thread i make, I have no idea how to bring it all to a close, so... i'm done :D

-Smart.A1ec-

Hmm, seems you have some options out there. I think the best choice for you would be to pursue something more practical for a living. I mean go ahead and be that computer geek (hey, you got to get the means to feed yourself and finance your musical activities first) BUT don't give up on your musical aspirations.

Look at it this way. It's an uphill battle to compose for a living. You'll need to have a good network of people and connections to improve your chances of success. If you look into the business side of it (and I think most would agree) that getting your compositions out there costs money. Unless you have good financial backing, you'll have to make sure that any time you try to get a work out should be worth the buck. So go ahead and have that perseverance but make sure it's within practical means.

Making a living as a performer might be easier, especially if you're very competent. Since you can play the bassoon, you might as well stick it out as a bassoonist. If I were to make an estimate (rather inaccurate one), there might be 500 pianists to a bassoonist so I could be easier to make a successful career being a bassoonist that a pianist (unless you're Lang Lang or Cecile Licad or Rubinstein).

Among your options, the easiest (and most stable) way to make a living would be computers. What's more than that, you'll have an advantage by being a computer geek and a musician. It's also a fact that there some distinguished composers in history had "day jobs" besides being a composer. Let me give you some examples:

The Russian Five had day jobs. For example, lexander Borodin was much more known as a chemist (he described himself as a "Sunday Composer").

Iannis Xenakis was an architect.

Charles Ives had a great career as an insurance executive.

You see, it's a possibility that you can have a "day job" yet be prolific as a composer. I myself have a day job but I haven't quit on composing and trying to improve my technique on musical instruments and other musical activities. Who knows, you might end up having both careers. :D

Let me make something clear here:

My third thing I've "always" wanted to be isn't exactly true, there are MANY other things I wold love to do, I just put down programmer for the sake of simplicity.

Among the top few things I would want to be (excluding musical things) Programming isn't exactly one of my top 5, (honestly my mind went blank when typing my first post so I just put down something I would consider doing)

One thing I would love to do is be a commercial pilot, e.g. UPS or FedEx.. the problem with this is you are gone all the time, my neighbor is a pilot for UPS and he is home about 30 days out of the year.

Another thing that has always fascinated me was foreign languages. Before I discovered the saxophone (I was already playing piano) and really got into music I wanted to learn every language in the world and e a linguist, until I found out that translators make TONS of money (about $1 per word) and that seemed like a lot of fun, and, pretty easy if you think about it (just repeating what someone says). But, once again if I am constantly on the go being a translator there's no time to compose.

Those are my top two things up until about two years ago when my life in music took off. Actually, now that I think about it, everything seemed to happen perfectly, had I gotten the saxophone I have (my dad's old one) just a few years earlier, I would have gotten bored of it, never joined the local city band, never would have gotten into middle school my eighth grade year and (if i was absent this one day) my high school band director wouldn't have asked me to play the instrument I've always loved: the bassoon.

Wow, funny how things just.. work out.

anyway, I think I should spend some time writing down all these options.. but if I want to make a living from composing, then by gum I will do it (wow never said by gum before XD ) just watch me! :P

Wow. Thats a good letter with some great advice!

Philip Glass too never gave up his plumbers license apparently.

Any way, I do feel though that as a whole art music is left on the fringe of society. Especially these last few years. However, I think we are starting to adapt to modern tonalities. Or not, to my ears it sounds native now, but I am different then others. It is hard to say what will come of the future. I am very hesitant to go into music, but It is what I've wanted. I wanted to be a computer guys for awhile. Then I got disgusted with it and with the people in the business that I met. They weren't the type of people for me and I had a affinity for open source, which would have meant little money any way.

I will figure out a job path though where I can still pursue my love of music. Another option is to move to Europe where art music and the avant-garde are somewhat more accepted than in America, here everything is about aesthetics.

America = land of plastic, and you have to take this into account its about what it sounds LIKE not what it IS

Philip Glass was Avant Garde. He didn't suffer through the plight of the "concert music composer."

America, land of the free! "In God we trust." That god is the almighty dollar, nothing is free. Why can't we all just live in Vienna or Paris?

BTW, the letter was very deep. I'm gonna pass that along.

Yeah my grandpa plays accordion (and is REALLY amazing at it, he just never wanted to introduce himself to the world) and he took a trip to Russia, he said there you have to have a college degree (like a major) in accordions or you aren't allowed to play on the streets.. Here in america we just treat the accordion as a toy (i mean, you can buy one for $20 at cracker barrel) when it's really a very beautiful sounding instrument.

I think that music in the rest of the world means a whole lot more than to those in America, no person on the street knows what a bassoon is.. even some band kids don't even know what a bassoon is, or an oboe, much less an english horn!

I want to move to france when I can, that's my heritage and I love france (even though I've never been there)

Philip Glass was Avant Garde. He didn't suffer through the plight of the "concert music composer."

are you sure? On my computer when I ripped the cd on it put him under the genre "Minimalism"

or is that just a sub genre?

Avant Garde was an overall concept of music basically hapening in the mid-20th century, from about the 1930s to 1980s. Minimalism is a genre within the concept of avant garde music. Musicologists should feel free to correct me.

"avant garde" is an ever changing thing... it is not limited to a specific time period. the "avant garde" is the "pushing the limits of art" at any single time.

Some people have tied to set a certain period as being "the avant garde era", however, it's a misnomer, and not widely accepted. Any composer can have been avant garde for his era. For example, Strawinski was part of the avant garde when he wrote Sacre. Debussy with P

Right. It is an operative term not bound to any time period. My point is that Philip Glass was doing things that no one else was doing at the time. He was an inovater.

Justin -

Phillip Glass was driving a cab into his early 40's in New York City (so, imagine the rides he got in NYC around mid/late 60's to mid 70's, not the best time to be doing this in NYC). He basically formed his own group to play his compositions and has very slow to release his scores into publication. Also, Phillip Glass wrote for many films starting in the late 70's and early 80's (which you probably know many of them from "life Out of Balance (sorry cannot recall the original title), "The Thin Blue Line" and a rare gem Four Scenes from Mishima). So Glass circumvented the concert stage (as did Reich and Terry Reilly and La Monte Young). Phillip Glass and Steve Reich may have had the most success of this group of composers.

So, Glass is a rather weak model of the concert composer. He had a totally non-musical dayjob until mid adulthood and the concert performance and works came much later. To tell you the truth, if I write an opera and the Met does do it great and wants more great. However, that is not really an attractive LONG-TERM goal.

PS. I disagree Glass was that much of an innovator, Reilly's "In C" and Reich's It's Gonna Rain came out before Glass's mininmalist works (correct me if wrong). Unless he did something quite different from Riley and Reich.

MUCH better than the piano or string orchestra version... :)

VERY beautiful indeed.

lol quoted by "The Accordion Kid"???

and you spelled Accordian wrong, it's Accordion. Sorry I just get OCD about grammar and spelling and such :(

and yes, you should see my grandpa play, the way he has everything memorized, like the whole Rhapsody in Blue, plays it flawlessly and says "Well that's not nearly as good as I was 20 years ago when I could actually move these darn fingers"

Hmmm i should record him, he promised to play for us tomorrow :P

I didn't mean to start teh whole minimalist debate.

The point was that you will need money and you will need a job. This job hardly needs to be a musical based job.

lol it's okay, but i had a thought:

The hardest part about becoming a known composer and getting to write for films is getting known right? Once you get yourself known as a good composer people will want to hire you, right?

Well since I still (obviously) live with my parents and don't really need to make myself a living, I could get myself out there in the world and get myself a reputation now and then when it comes time to get out of college, people will already know who I am! right?

or am I totally out in the weeds?

well yeah but if i got pretty good between now and the end of college...

Being a film composer is a tough life, and can be rewarding, but often is not. you are completely at the mercy of the director, who will ask for an enormous amount of music in almost no time at all, and you will need to be fluent in all styles of music. Even then, they might not like it, you would get paid a marginal amount, and that is EVEN if someone finds you. It is a lot to do with connections, as was mentioned earlier BUT DON'T DESPAIR.

If you decide you want to make money and go for programming, you can always still compose... performances are just more rare.

Being a film composer is a tough life, and can be rewarding, but often is not. you are completely at the mercy of the director, who will ask for an enormous amount of music in almost no time at all, and you will need to be fluent in all styles of music. Even then, they might not like it, you would get paid a marginal amount, and that is EVEN if someone finds you. It is a lot to do with connections, as was mentioned earlier BUT DON'T DESPAIR.

If you decide you want to make money and go for programming, you can always still compose... performances are just more rare.

1. If you are doing what you love, who cares how much money you are making??

2. I like working under pressure, e.g. if my mom or dad tells me to clean my room by like 5pm, I won't do it until 4:30 because I don't feel compelled to do it until I get stressed about doing it... or something

3. If he doesn't like it, he can fire me for all I care. I like it, that's all tat matters to me :P I know that will come back to haunt me..

4. I don't actually want to be a programmer, I established that and what I really want to do on like page three or four or five or something, just look around for one of my longer posts.

If you are doing what you love, who cares how much money you are making??

Bill collectors, landlords, repo men...