So man compositions, yet so little critiques...

I know this is a problem for a lot of boards, but since trading comments about compositions is the main point of this forum, a system of posting should be helped to further encourage that. It's understandable that many of you might be too "busy" to thoroughly comment on another's work (or maybe you really don't have much to say about it at all), but still, some kind of system should be implimented to find a healthy balance. One way to attack this is to modify the scripting so that the total number of attachments on the allowed is proportional to the number of posts that the member has in others' threads (on the critique board) - while another is to simply to more actively practice the give and receive ethic. Personally, I'm more fond of the latter, and I'm not even sure if the first is possible, but it's the more idealistic choice here. What do you guys think about this? Are there any other solutions that you could think of?

I think the people who post should be patient and not simply assume noone's paying attention to them. Just post your compositions like regular, and wait for people to critique them. Maybe people don't find anything wrong with your compositions! :D Or they just don't have any free time on their hands!

I myself have found that there are more people who post their works vs. comment on other people's pieces, but what you're proposing is very strict and I don't think many would deem it appropriate. I think we should give a notice out, such as this thread, and hope the people at this forum start noticing everyone else! :)

Maybe people don't find anything wrong with your compositions!

True... often times I don't deem it necessary to post a simple "good work" post because I don't really have anything else to add to it and that's almost a waste of a post... I do it anyway (:P) but don't think that people should look down on their music if everyone doesn't reply ASAP or even at all!

(I just realized I mispelled many :P). I realize that, and mentioned in my original post that people may simply not have anything to say. But it's purpose is twofold; it's also meant to slow down the rate that people are posting their pieces, so that things can be said about the pieces that are there before some new pieces come out and overshadow them (helping out with the overcluttering problem a bit too, hopefully). Anyways, as I've said, I don't really think the strict enforcement is the best answer either, and hope that gentle suggestions will go further. Now that I think about it, another way might just to get people aware about this is to have sort of an agreement form to use the attachment function - it'll probably include some obligatory stuff like copyright infringment and such, and it can also add a note suggesting to post one's one piece is moderation, and encouraging them to post critiques (it should probably also give them the impression that they don't have to be music theory experts or whatnot to comment; just say what you want about the piece however you like). So yeh....I'll stop ranting now.

Sometimes, I do not feel like I am the right person to reply to a person's work. Especially if it is atonal or more modern. I'm not going to waste my time saying , "explain this piece to me", because honestly, I don't care. However, when I know I should say something, I will and when I don't feel like I should say something I won't. It's that simple. I don't think I should be giving a pently for that.

Very often I intend to listen more carefully and comment in detail when I have time, only to find that I don't have the time. On a first listening, I usually have nothing to say other than "good work", and no one needs to hear that for the 10th time in a thread.

BitterDuck - personally I think it's worthwhile to ask the composer to explain a piece. That may help the composer just as much as being critiqued, since he or she usually has to think about the piece some more in order to explain it.

Very often I intend to listen more carefully and comment in detail when I have time, only to find that I don't have the time.  On a first listening, I usually have nothing to say other than "good work", and no one needs to hear that for the 10th time in a thread.

BitterDuck - personally I think it's worthwhile to ask the composer to explain a piece.  That may help the composer just as much as being critiqued, since he or she usually has to think about the piece some more in order to explain it.

This is my situation absolutely, and I feel guilty about it sometimes (I mentioned this elsewhere). Even if I think I have the time, sometimes I just can't get in the right frame of mind. And as others have said, I don't always think I'm the right person to comment, i.e. if it uses a musical language I don't understand. I do comment at least twice a week on average, usually in detail.

I, too, often ask questions of a composer if I want to understand what motivates him/her and if I think it will help my critique.

while another is to simply to more actively practice the give and receive ethic

My feeling is that rather than being enforced in some way, this needs to be karmic. If all a person does is post compositions and never comments, eventually people are going to figure it out and it will work againtst him/her. Do unto others...

Very often I intend to listen more carefully and comment in detail when I have time, only to find that I don't have the time.

I know this is a problem for a lot of boards, but since trading comments about compositions is the main point of this forum, a system of posting should be helped to further encourage that.

I agree with this comment, but like what others said, sometimes we can't offer opinions, because we may like a completely different style, and be biased towards that music. For example, I will never comment on rap, pop, rock and hip hop, because of my lack of interest in that type of music, which causes me to be biased. I am more interested in the instrumental part of music. So my opinion would be biased probably. Just as, I wouldn't want someone who doesn't truly appreciate romanticism to comment on my works, because that person would probably hate my compositions.

However, I know what you are saying still. One big reason why there are more posts than comments is because the board is still a new born. Granted, it is growing at a remarkable speed, however we can't forget that YC was stale and needs a lot of work still with marketing. I am trying my best, but give it a few months.

Another way to overcome the lack of comments is to have an "approval" system for that particular forum. This way, people can comment while "waiting". The only reason why I am not doing that yet is because the board is young, and I want posts. However, having an approval system may encourage people to not just post "whatever" in the future.

Furthermore, I can assign knowledgeable moderators in a specific genre of music to post their comments (if I can get any takers later on). So far, the moderators can edit the whole board. But later on that will probably change. This assures that each forum is cared for, and a person who posts most likely will get the attention he/she wants (because the moderators job will soon be to help contribute to someone's post or question!)

All this stuff can't happen until the board gets more unique hits a day. We get about 2-5 signups a day on average which is great, but we only get 150-200 unique visitors a day. We also get bookmarked about 15% of the time which is unbelievable, so people are interested in what you guys have to say! But still, unique visits a day is still pretty small and has to be increased.

Another way to overcome the lack of comments is to have an "approval" system for that particular forum.  This way, people can comment while "waiting".  The only reason why I am not doing that yet is because the board is young, and I want posts.  However, having an approval system may encourage people to not just post "whatever" in the future. 

This is a certainly nice idea, and sort of what I had in mind, though perhaps a more reasonable one. I thought maybe a "point-based" system could be used to encourage people to post comments on other's threads more often - a certain number of points would give you an extra (accumulating) attachment or whatever to post in your own space. Normally, users may post, say, 2-3 pieces a week (non-accumulating), but they can use up their extra posts to extend that amount, perhaps for an unusually prolif period of composition that they are experiencing. The benefit of this approach of course is that it's mostly automated, so that it's very feasible for given a large base of users. However, it's probably also exploitable, and it may not be very easy to change the code to accomendate that (actually, I don't know if this system is possible in the first place! :P)

Furthermore, I can assign knowledgeable moderators in a specific genre of music to post their comments (if I can get any takers later on).  So far, the moderators can edit the whole board.  But later on that will probably change.  This assures that each forum is cared for, and a person who posts most likely will get the attention he/she wants (because the moderators job will soon be to help contribute to someone's post or question!)

Yeah, it's generally a good idea to have dedicated mods for seperate, though I'm not sure if you can actually "assign" them to post comments. But I guess we'll see.

All this stuff can't happen until the board gets more unique hits a day.  We get about 2-5 signups a day on average which is great, but we only get 150-200 unique visitors a day.  We also get bookmarked about 15% of the time which is unbelievable, so people are interested in what you guys have to say!  But still, unique visits a day is still pretty small and has to be increased.

Wow, that is quite amazing. But why do you want more unique visits a day? Are you looking to somehow commercialize YoungComposers.com, or make it prominent enough so that it's a respectable place to look for "talent"?

Wow, that is quite amazing. But why do you want more unique visits a day? Are you looking to somehow commercialize YoungComposers.com, or make it prominent enough so that it's a respectable place to look for "talent"?

I plan to make this forum one of the highest quality and most visited music forums on the world wide web so new talent can be discovered, and so you guys can get true reviews of your music. I am taking advantage of the web, because the web grows exponentially, and it is great for advertising. This forum only drives composers and musicians...so the traffic is very targetted.

The more visitors a day, the more probability you guys will meet up with professionals who can hear new talent. The more visitors, the more members per day signing up. Imagine having 50 signups a day. More comments, more music, more talent, more professionals. Of course this place will need money to run (needs money to run now)...but I will create options. I may have to adjust user attachment space later, but to post in this forum will always be free.

I too get a bit discouraged more people don't respond.  I post on 2 other boards, and I realize you need to comment on posts, and then maybe someone will respond to your posts. It feels weird,to just say something like 'great work'..   

Since I do more pop, I really don't feel qualified to comment on real orchestral classical stuff..  

I post on a Logic Pro forum.. The quality is all over the place from plain horrible to pretty good.  I don't think the most talented people even post, for fear of plagiarism..  But there is a good amount of crap posted..  Someone slaps together a bunch of loops, (and not even well done).. or the guy that feels he has to post 2 or 3 songs a day..  

At another site, PSR Tutorial, there are a lot of comments, and in the 5 years I've been there, the quality of the work has improved considerably.. Also being a recording engineer I helped several people just to get the sound quality of their recordings better..  Everyone there shares their knowledge, compliments, ideas, etc..  

Being a pop/rock musician/composer - I've always felt a bit of a stigma with classically trained musicians, like they look down their nose, cause what I do is not 'real music in the purest sense'...   I try to have an open mind, sometimes I comment, even though a particular type of music is not my cup of tea..  If I have an intelligent insight I offer it..  

It's certainly nice when someone compliments you, or gives you good constructive criticism (that's the best).. But just the act of posting is good in a way.. 

Yes, I would love to see Young Composers grow..   There are a lot of extremely talented people here.. It is a great opportunity waiting to blossom into something more. 

Don't get discouraged. I concede that pop & rock don't get the adecuate attention in the forum, and the same could be said about jazz itself (funny thing, it seems that the mainstream audiences work exactly the oppossite way). It doesn't mean they lack quality - sometimes it's just that a few of us don't feel qualified to wade on what you're going for, since our styles seem so different. Or perhaps that we just can't keep track on everything that gets uploaded (I regret that myself, as I'm very inclined to drop some kind of feedback on most people's efforts). We need to break the ice and drop a comment here and there - it will just make it more likely for our pieces to get noticed in return.

I personally feel pretty unqualified say much.  I have a lot of knowledge (including/especially basic stuff) to brush up on and get to the point that I can put a name to the things that I instinctively hear, and further, just being so inexperienced in composing in general I have a hard time coming up with specific feedback on what I hear listening to other people's work.

I've been composing for decades, more years than I am willing to readily admit, and I too have trouble coming up with just what to say about a piece I might listen to here, particularly if I feel it is lacking something.  When I feel that way, I'm not always able to articulate what I feel is not right or needs improvement, especially if the the style of the work is outside my expertise.  I am largely an autodidact, so I really only know how I compose, and have little insight as to the many other techniques out there and how others do their thing, so I have a tendency to judge based on my own admittedly limited experience, which isn't always helpful or even valid.    

More often than not, I just give encouragement and keep my comments general.  When I can't do that, I remain silent too often, and I feel guilty about that.   

Yet we need that feedback. We don't want to look like a board of dilettantes who believe to know what we are doing but aren't able to appreciate when someone else does. Of course we need the guidance of truly experienced and knowledgeable composers, who will not look down to us but rather help us to learn and grow.

I used to review a lot but I decided to no longer review works which are either Baroque or Classical - not in "neo" way but as a pastiche. I tried to encourage these composers to liberate themselves from chains of the past styles and find more personal musical language but I got seriously berated for these efforts. So I will continue to follow music by everybody but composers of 17th and 18th century style will not receive reviews from me.

1 hour ago, Sojar Voglar said:

I used to review a lot but I decided to no longer review works which are either Baroque or Classical - not in "neo" way but as a pastiche. I tried to encourage these composers to liberate themselves from chains of the past styles and find more personal musical language but I got seriously berated for these efforts. So I will continue to follow music by everybody but composers of 17th and 18th century style will not receive reviews from me.

I agree with that.

Everyone has preferences in styles. In fact, I have, of course, although I listen to other stuff sometimes.

I think the more infarmiton the composer gives the more feedback he/she can get back. Whan I listen to something and it doesn' include anything (score, comments on the composition, structure, form, harmony..., whatever), I only can say: I like it or not. Because I don't have time to analyse the work.

If there is information, I can comment on that, specifically. And, I suppose (or that's what I try t do), the composers gives information about relevant issues.

On the other hand, I don't know if this is a good idea, nor if it is possible... Perhaps we could give opinion using a prefixed "quick score" with four or five items: harmony, melody, form and structure... This would be a quick way to "say" something...

I have uploaded a broad range of works here, some modern, some modeled on earlier styles. Very little of it has been commented on, let alone critiqued. Yet 95% of the contributions here are derivative in some way and are heavily commented on nonetheless. Clique? I don't know. Being derivative is not a sin. I know my work has an original component, as do many others, but I am not a deconstructionist and never will be. I comment on things I like regardless of form or style and I will continue, though sometimes it seems like a one way street. 

Generally, I try to comment on anything that I make any meaningful observation on. And if ever someone comments on a work I've mine, I'm always sure to go through their stuff and find something to give my opinion on. 

Most of the people on here who frequently post and comment are much more established members of the community than I am, so I've always assumed that the longer I'm around and the more I grow as a composer, the more feedback I can expect from the more experienced. 

47 minutes ago, fishyfry said:

I've always assumed that the longer I'm around and the more I grow as a composer, the more feedback I can expect from the more experienced. 

While this is true to some extent, I'd say the key for getting feedback is giving feedback. A lot of it. It worked for me - I feel privileged by usually getting quite a lot of comments and reviews, but I guess this has more to do with my willingness to comment on people's pieces than with the quality of my own works. I'd think we get more encouragement by knowing what other people thought about our piece (no matter if it's not a theory treatise) than by getting no feedback at all on the grounds that people supposedly don't think they are qualified to tell us about their experience with our music.

That's a very good point. It's hard not to feel like a piece is just being ignored if it doesn't get many or any comments, even if that isn't necessarily the case. 

I am indeed too busy to spare an hour or more reviewing a composition (I don't want to give a sentence or two of first impressions - critiquing for me is an intensely draining process), but I've been meaning to take a session as soon as I have time. I think criticism is important and this site is already an excellent environment for giving and receiving criticism - it can only become better.

I am not a 'musical analyst, I know little about classical music.. I brave it out in the 'pop section.  Yet I venture into other forums, and when I have something to say. I point it out.  It lies more along the technical aspect, or mix/arrangement of piece.  or the emotion it evokes in me..  Whether these are a help to the author, I don't know.. although occasionally I get a nod. 

Other pieces of music are certainly not my cup of tea.. So I find it hard to comment..  I did go to Art School for several years, and learnt the 'art of critique'..  

That is basically to NEVER attack the person, for lack of skills, or questionable taste.. But to point out something that really worked for you, and then point out a section, or idea, with 

'did you consider'.. or IMHO.  It would be helpful for all of us to get more comments..  But I can hardly comment on compositional structure, when the composer has obviously spend several years studying this.. And most of my knowledge is 'self taught or self learned'.  

Still the beauty of music, is that it can be approached and created a number of different ways..  

Also there is the unwritten rule,    concsistanly comment on some ones contributions, and hopefully they will comment on yours.. I have found that to be the case.. 

I love this site,  because it is adult, and people there are serious about their work.. It does not have a bunch of 'boys with toys', hitting the demo buttons on their keyboards, modifying one sound and calling it theirs..

There are some folks here obviously new to this, but they are coming to it with a somewhat different approach.. I truly applaud that..  

And I also totally appreciate someone who has a working understanding of harmony, melody, counterpoint, etc. 

One doesn't have to give a long, 'intelligent' summary of something.. just saying what they got out of it, is a help.. If you can p point to something specific all the better.. 

On 8/1/2005 at 12:24 AM, spc1st said:

I know this is a problem for a lot of boards, but since trading comments about compositions is the main point of this forum, a system of posting should be helped to further encourage that. It's understandable that many of you might be too "busy" to thoroughly comment on another's work (or maybe you really don't have much to say about it at all), but still, some kind of system should be implimented to find a healthy balance. One way to attack this is to modify the scripting so that the total number  Redtube Beeg Spankbang of attachments on the allowed is proportional to the number of posts that the member has in others' threads (on the critique board) - while another is to simply to more actively practice the give and receive ethic. Personally, I'm more fond of the latter, and I'm not even sure if the first is possible, but it's the more idealistic choice here. What do you guys think about this? Are there any other solutions that you could think of?

 

 I think it's worthwhile to ask the composer to explain a piece. That may help the composer just as much as being critiqued, since he or she usually has to think about the piece some more in order to explain it.