Religion & Music

So, I'm an atheist yet I think a lot of cool music (requiems, masses, bleh) has religion to thank for its creation, which may as well be the only redeeming quality of religion in my opinion.

In other cultures there's also religion-geared music and of course it's always been around in some way or another in every civilization that I can think of.

So, discuss!

I think religion can be enhanced by music, but if you arent for religion....

there's actually a common thread in both eastern classical music (Indian sitar ragas) and the western tradition, they say that the scales we used in western music and the ragas used in eastern music all branched from the Hellenistic era in Greece...so the music is absolute, the gods changed. lol.

I'm also an atheist, so I've thought about this a lot. I think that with those masses and requiems, etc. the composers had extremely high standards for themselves. They were writing about the most important thing/person/event/concept in many people's lives. Writing music for God had to be damned good music. So, what we get is damned good music, and extremely emotional music, written with the desire to please an Almighty being. The composition itself is a form of worship.

Unfortunately, I find lately that we've gotten the reverse. Rather than saying, "If it's going to be about/for God, it had better be good," people seem to be saying, "If it's about/for God, then it is good," without regard for the actual quality of the music. I think modern Gospel music can be quite powerful and moving, but those are few and far between. Too often I see people playing the same old chords and singing the same old things, and to me that gets boring, but it would be sacrilege for me to put down that music, because it's for God! (Even if it's not good music!)

Let's be sure we don't let this thread degenerate into any "religion bashing" please.

Speaking for myself, I am, I guess you could say, an agnostic. Yet still, many religious texts, because of their humanistic qualities attract me.

I have a lot of trouble with dogma. So when setting a specific religious text to music, I am often confronted with passages with which I really don't know what to do.

Unfortunately, most of the more "universal" faiths I have come across appear to not really have a history of either music or written word (meaning pre-existing texts that are expressive of that faith).

I'm probably expressing most of this wrong, of course.. I'm not much of a writer myself.

Anyways, I will have to deal with church dogma over the next two years, as I'm setting a religious text for an oratorio I've been commissioned to write. Let's just see how that turns out. I don't want to refuse the commission (come on.. it's not like I don't NEED the money), and of course, who DOESN'T want to be performed by a professional chorus and orchestra!

Disclaimer: This isn't so much about any X belief being valid or not, but about the actual music and the relationship there through history, modern times, bleh. Musical discussion, not religious discussion is the point of this thread.

Well as "quality" itself is subjective, it's understandable why something like religion would exert such weight on judging if something is of quality or not.

Historically it's been a matter of which traditions should be done in this or that way. Protestant church music (Bach, Buxtehude, bla) are indeed the most experimental/highest level the composers could get at. By Bach the B-minor Mass is a great example of this. By Mozart, Beethoven and so on which were of catholic background, the idea wasn't to be avant-garde but to compose with a degree of conservativeness. It's why the religious work of these composers doesn't compare to their compositions where they were free to go "all out." Take Beethoven's symphonies versus his religious work for a rather simple comparison of how different his writing became as soon as the religion topic came about.

If you go further back, you get Palestrina as the main example of religious music which was also extremely complex, musically. So much so was this distinction that Monteverdi decided apt to name it "prima prattica" in that it should be the basis for everything else. It may have been so because of the religious implication of Palestrina's music but could as well have been a recognition of the composition's merits as pieces of music themselves, though a little unlikely considering how important religion was at the time.

So, judging by the evidence, I'd say that religion has always been open to interpretation in one way or another, musically. Today you can look at Arvo P

It think it would be enlightening (or vaguely amusing) to poll those who think that writing tone poems or 'programmatic music' is detrimental or not 'pure music', and then ask them the same question about religiously-inspired music.

You could smell the hypocrisy in their response from across the internets.

It think it would be enlightening (or vaguely amusing) to poll those who think that writing tone poems or 'programmatic music' is detrimental or not 'pure music', and then ask them the same question about religiously-inspired music.

You could smell the hypocrisy in their response from across the internets.

That's a rather good idea! But it'd be sorta stupid to do it here and now if we're talking about it. Hahaha.

I heard:

In Muslim religion, Music is said to be a disraction from god,

I do believe in God, and I feel the more I delve into music; the the closer I get to God. I don't feel like any specific type of music is more "religious" than another, or a specific form or something like that. I can feel the touch of God listening to AC/DC for that matter, or some sort of musical abomination by Zappa and yes..... Moz... MOZART can evoke those feelings as well.

I can feel the touch of God listening to AC/DC for that matter, or some sort of musical abomination by Zappa and yes..... Moz... MOZART can evoke those feelings as well.

NOO! DON'T MENTION MOZART!

Don't you know what will happen if you mention MOZART?!?!?!!

...

...

*NOTHING HAPPENS*

lol.

PS: But anyways, yeah. It's a good point, there's also the point that religion can be perceived where it may not as well be intended. Some people say listening to Mahler's 8th is a quasi religious experience, yea? So it's very variable.

In the words of Beethoven:

Mahler 8? Sure

Mahler 2? Undoubtably. The most spiritual work I have ever heard!

Mahler 8? Sure

Mahler 2? Undoubtably. The most spiritual work I have ever heard!

I actually don't like Mahler, but I thought it was a nice example. :>

Would the belief in something religious make the composer write music he would otherwise not write?

Just take a look at the melody of Palestrina's motet "Exaudi, Domine preces servi tui" (Lord, hear your servant's prayer!)

http://wso.williams.edu/cpdl/sheet/pal-exau.pdf

http://wso.williams.edu/cpdl/sound/pal-exau.mid

I'm going to write about the first melody ("Exaudi, Domine, Domine"):

Look how miserably the singer tries to reach the heavens (2 times) with his/her voice:

Starts from the ground (E4), but after reaching C5 falls back to earth (E4). The second try is even more miserable: (s)he makes one large jump ("cry") and reaches but cannot cut through C5, moreover the fall-back is much faster (8th notes). The melody ends on A4 (between E4 and C5) with a painful A-G#-A.

This melody can only be composed by someone with true belief in God, because it adds extra meaning to the text: "Lord, why don't you hear your servant's prayer?"

Is that good or bad?

I think it's good; a simple word-painting cannot do such things. A hidden meaning raises the quality of your music and people will be happy if they manage to discover that.

This is a really great thread!

I'm definitely not a religious person by any means (secular humanist would be the best way to describe me), but I certainly feel at my most spiritual in writing my own music and listening to that of others. I know we've been focusing on religious texts here, but a piece doesn't even necessarily need to have a religious text to give me that spiritual feeling. There are moments, for example, in Steve Reich's The Desert Music (whose text is completely secular), that are truly ecstatic.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I feel like the text isn't all that important in establishing a spiritual connection, however significant it may be in a religious sense. If you took out the text of the Faur

This is a really great thread!

I'm definitely not a religious person by any means (secular humanist would be the best way to describe me), but I certainly feel at my most spiritual in writing my own music and listening to that of others. I know we've been focusing on religious texts here, but a piece doesn't even necessarily need to have a religious text to give me that spiritual feeling. There are moments, for example, in Steve Reich's The Desert Music (whose text is completely secular), that are truly ecstatic.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I feel like the text isn't all that important in establishing a spiritual connection, however significant it may be in a religious sense. If you took out the text of the Faur

Yay for intelligent discussion! Never actually thought I'd find it on this forum, grumble grumble...

I didn't mean to imply that the religious text of a work is irrelevant; on the contrary, I think it can be incredibly important. For the followers of a particular religion, the text of a piece can be the lens through which the spiritual experience of the music itself is focused, intensified, what have you. For someone such as me, who doesn't subscribe to a religion, any text, if there is any text at all, can act as that sort of a lens.

Yay for intelligent discussion! Never actually thought I'd find it on this forum, grumble grumble...

I didn't mean to imply that the religious text of a work is irrelevant; on the contrary, I think it can be incredibly important. For the followers of a particular religion, the text of a piece can be the lens through which the spiritual experience of the music itself is focused, intensified, what have you. For someone such as me, who doesn't subscribe to a religion, any text, if there is any text at all, can act as that sort of a lens.

Well, even then, if you don't understand what the text says it still carries a meaning musically, as music. That was my point. You CAN add that layer of meaning, but you can also take it away and you still end up with actual music you listen to.

Ahh, alright. Then heartily agreed! Sorry, I'm a little slow to catch on tonight.

I'm not really interested in the personal "I believe bla bla bla" side, but in how that actually affects the music itself. Would the belief in something religious make the composer write music he would otherwise not write? Is that good or bad?

Why ask questions,

Being religious doesn't enable you or disable your ability to write religiously themed music any better or worse than someone who is infact religious.

...if you already have your own answers?

I think it's not so difficult to understand that music written by a religious person CAN mean much more for a religious listener than an atheist one. Using your term, it can have one more "layer".

Why ask questions,

...if you already have your own answers?

I think it's not so difficult to understand that music written by a religious person CAN mean much more for a religious listener than an atheist one. Using your term, it can have one more "layer".

Because that's the point of a discussion. If I wanted to stick to my own opinion and leave it at that I wouldn't be asking the damn questions, would I?

Anyways, I was talking more about how it can be a problem as well as something positive to have something religious as the guiding force in the creative process, or at least to some degree where it has enough influence to influence the choices you make creatively.

OK, that's fine.

Anyways, I was talking more about how it can be a problem as well as something positive to have something religious as the guiding force in the creative process, or at least to some degree where it has enough influence to influence the choices you make creatively.

okay, so you are thinking (questioning?) of religion as a creative engine?

In that case, I think it can be positive or negative. If it helps you get things done, then, heck yeah, I think it is positive. I think that it can also be a strong driving force to try and make something the best a person can make it.

However, if it is the only thing driving the creativity, what happens if you lose belief in your religion or something? Does the creativity stop also?

I am religious and all that, but i don't decidedly think about it when i am writing a piece. If i don't subconsiously, I can't say. lol. maybe if i did i would write better... who knows?...

Does the fact that Christian rock is invariably the greatest pile of crap ever written count for anything in this discussion? :innocent: