robinjessome Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 Franzy, you seem eager to get going... so.... GO!! ...Where do you wanna start?
Franzman Posted August 5, 2008 Posted August 5, 2008 Heh, I was hoping that you would know that. :P I think I have gotten a fair idea how the basic Jazz theory works so I would like to know how to apply that into arranging/composing. I don't really know where to start, that's the problem I'm having. For example, how would one arrange this leadsheet into a nice Combo/Big band/ect chart (without just ripping it)? How to write nice and flowing voicings. How to come up with good chord progressions. All that sort of thing, I just don't know where to start. You're really welcome to help me sort these things out using whatever methods you seem fit. :P My 4 cents.
robinjessome Posted August 7, 2008 Author Posted August 7, 2008 Oooh! Lofty goals... Lemme see... It's tough to know where to start...are you arranging Harlem Nocturne? Do you want to...or another tune? Let's get a project going... I'll pm you some downloads...useful stuff. We'll move on from there.
Franzman Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 I know that the goals are kinda high, but I think that with the right guidance they wont be so hard to reach, eventually. ;) About the tune, i just grabbed a random example. :P It doesn't HAVE to be Harlem Nocturne, we could start with something easier but Harlem Nocturne is such a beautiful tune that I want to arrange eventually. :) The books you sent looks good, i will check them out. Will you make exercises based off books or will you just leave me to figure the books out myself?
robinjessome Posted August 7, 2008 Author Posted August 7, 2008 The books you sent looks good, i will check them out. Will you make exercises based off books or will you just leave me to figure the books out myself? The books are pretty straightforward, and you can take from them what you will. The two piano voicing books are great, just to give you different perspectives for voicings - which are easily transferable to whichever ensemble you might need. For NOW, let's start small. It's actually harder to work with limited instrumentation - your available not choices are limited, not only by the number of players, but also by which notes you need to best spell out the chord... SO, pick an easy tune and let's start a Messengers style 3-horn arrangement. Piano, Bass, Drums, Trumpet, Tenor Sax, Trombone. GO!
Franzman Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 SO, pick an easy tune and let's start a Messengers style 3-horn arrangement. Piano, Bass, Drums, Trumpet, Tenor Sax, Trombone. GO! What do you think about that one? ;)
robinjessome Posted August 7, 2008 Author Posted August 7, 2008 Ladybird! Awesome - great tune. NOW...as a composer, think about the overall shape of the arrangement. What's your WHOLE form going to be? Before you get into intricacies like voicings and ochestrational stuff, think Big Picture. Do you want to do it really straight ahead? Or, try something different and more unique? Whaddya think?
Franzman Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 Ladybird! Awesome - great tune.NOW...as a composer, think about the overall shape of the arrangement. What's your WHOLE form going to be? Before you get into intricacies like voicings and ochestrational stuff, think Big Picture. Do you want to do it really straight ahead? Or, try something different and more unique? Whaddya think? Straight ahead stuff, like Head-solo-Head-Coda, usually bore the crap out of me but this particular tune is one of those tunes where it usually works quite well. I cant really think of any additional part that would fit, other than some kind of bass pedal intro. Perhaps it would be cool to give the tune a more modern sound?
robinjessome Posted August 7, 2008 Author Posted August 7, 2008 Straight ahead stuff, like Head-solo-Head-Coda, usually bore the crap out of me but this particular tune is one of those tunes where it usually works quite well. I cant really think of any additional part that would fit, other than some kind of bass pedal intro.Perhaps it would be cool to give the tune a more modern sound? You could TOTALLY deconstruct it and build something totally new...OR, yeah, the standard head-solos-head thing can work too. Where do you hear it going? One thing that will help would be to get the right melody. ;) Every leadsheet for this tune is wrong... [Measure 4, Bb7 - change the F to an E] [Measure 8, Eb7 - change the Bb to an A] <<-this guy plays it right. ;) There, Lydian-Dominant! Instant hippification!! ANYWAY.... How do you hear it - let's avoid any drastic reharm or anything CRAAAZY, but formally/rhythmically you've got a blank canvas, my friend.
Franzman Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 One thing that will help would be to get the right melody. ;) Every leadsheet for this tune is wrong... [Measure 4, Bb7 - change the F to an E] [Measure 8, Eb7 - change the Bb to an A] hmm, I hadn't even noticed that. I naturally assumed the E and A. :P <<-this guy plays it right. I didn't really like his rhythm, it sounded way too Trad Jazz. (I loathe trad jazz :P) It could've been his mute though.
robinjessome Posted August 7, 2008 Author Posted August 7, 2008 I didn't really like his rhythm, it sounded way too Trad Jazz. (I loathe trad jazz :P) It could've been his mute though. HAHA...yeah...his SOUND sucks, and his time...and tuning...and feel....but he plays the E, and A. ;) ANYWAY....
Franzman Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 Yeah, let's get this train rolling. I think that we should start out with a straight a head arrangement (but with a cool sound), I'm after all still a total newbie. :P
robinjessome Posted August 7, 2008 Author Posted August 7, 2008 Okay... Intro Head Solos [interlude?] Solos Head Coda NOW, how do you want it to flow - energy-wise? Do you want to start chilled out, sparse...or start big, and bring it down?
Franzman Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 I always like it when the intro is like a punch in the face, so I guess that the energy would start pretty big and then go down and rebuild during the solos/interlude and then Re-explode during the last head. How does that sound?
robinjessome Posted August 7, 2008 Author Posted August 7, 2008 I always like it when the intro is like a punch in the face, so I guess that the energy would start pretty big and then go down and rebuild during the solos/interlude and then Re-explode during the last head.How does that sound? Cool... I think this tune lends itself well to a solid rhythmic thread - take those first two bars, right? Perhaps using that as the basis for an intro....or something else. What do you have in mind?
Franzman Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 Perhaps some sort of combination between the opening rhythm and the C - Eb - Ab - Db turnaround would sound cool?
robinjessome Posted August 7, 2008 Author Posted August 7, 2008 Perhaps some sort of combination between the opening rhythm and the C - Eb - Ab - Db turnaround would sound cool? Make it so.
Franzman Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 Ok, here's something I came up with based off the turnaround. It's doesn't follow the opening rhythm but it's still cool. (My biggest weakness is transferring my ideas down to paper and writing stupid drum parts.) lady bird test.MUS
robinjessome Posted August 7, 2008 Author Posted August 7, 2008 A good start...I like the vibe. It'll work GREAT as a sort-of vampy interlude... I tweaked it a bit, and have a few more suggestions/explanaitions: Open it up. It's a good groove, and can be good to let the drums simmer over top of it. Be sure to tell your drummer (I'm ignoring Finale drummer, cause he's lame) "Busy Swing" or "Active time" or "quasi-solo" ... or something. Just so you get lots of activity and energy right off the bat. (like this: dig first 16 measure or so) Also, I think breaking up the rhythm of the figure (as I tried to demonstrate) would be cool...help build up some energy, a little rhythmic tension. Perhaps, repeating that section 4 times would be a good intro - maybe 3rd/4th time you want to add some horns - shots, based off the tune... dun dun daaaaa AAaaaaaa (voice around harmony as it goes by)... Or maybe not. Take what you will... --------------------- Who's going to play the melody? Are you playing the head twice? Are all horns in, right off the top of the head? Where are you taking us!!?? lady bird test2.MUS
Franzman Posted August 7, 2008 Posted August 7, 2008 A good start...I like the vibe. It'll work GREAT as a sort-of vampy interlude...I tweaked it a bit, and have a few more suggestions/explanaitions: Open it up. It's a good groove, and can be good to let the drums simmer over top of it. Be sure to tell your drummer (I'm ignoring Finale drummer, cause he's lame) "Busy Swing" or "Active time" or "quasi-solo" ... or something. Just so you get lots of activity and energy right off the bat. (like this: dig first 16 measure or so) Also, I think breaking up the rhythm of the figure (as I tried to demonstrate) would be cool...help build up some energy, a little rhythmic tension. Perhaps, repeating that section 4 times would be a good intro - maybe 3rd/4th time you want to add some horns - shots, based off the tune... dun dun daaaaa AAaaaaaa (voice around harmony as it goes by)... Or maybe not. Take what you will... --------------------- Who's going to play the melody? Are you playing the head twice? Are all horns in, right off the top of the head? Where are you taking us!!?? Wow, the additions you made were really cool. I had something similar in mind but I just couldn't get them on paper. :whistling: Anyhow, I think all horns should be in from the start but I'm unsure of the transition. And I'm also really unsure of the tempo because this is really Too fast for a nice sounding head. How should I rewrite it so it still maintains it's momentum yet isn't so fast that it just sounds stupid (see attached file)? :P Edit: The head I added was added just as an example of how stupid it sounds that fast, it's nothing that I'm planning on keeping. lady bird test3.MUS
robinjessome Posted August 8, 2008 Author Posted August 8, 2008 Wow, the additions you made were really cool. I had something similar in mind but I just couldn't get them on paper. :whistling: Thanks, It's likely a matter of familiarity - with time you'll start to recognize certain things as having certain effects on the music; and be able to translate these effects onto paper. THAT's why we're here!! And I'm also really unsure of the tempo because this is really Too fast for a nice sounding head. How should I rewrite it so it still maintains it's momentum yet isn't so fast that it just sounds stupid Yah, I see what you mean. The tune swings hardest around 208-220, but your intro isn't quite as effective at that tempo. *tries it at 250* :hmmm: It's not so bad there...pretty brisk, but not so fast that it'll be awkward. And, the intro still works. Were you going to have the horns play anything in the intro? Two times through the head is standard....do you just want to repeat it verbatim (boring), or try something different the second time through (:w00t: exciting! ) What do you think about 250? Or, you can go down to 220 (it swings real hard) and try and beef up the intro to be a bit more spectacular. :) Let'sGoLet'sGoLet'sGo!!
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