Lesson with darkangel2008hk.

In this thread we're going to be working through a new symphony, which you want to attempt.

Shall we start off by discussing your ideas for the piece?

If you have sketches, or a start, please post it.

I think it's a good idea to work out a basic idea of how your piece will look, before starting the actual music. We could do this if you want, first, unless you've already started.

I have been in hospital for a medical surgery for about a fortnight. My stay in hospital was a total nightmare. I felt like I was in hell during those fourteen days. The pain I suffered was really unbearable. Fortunately the pain decreased and I recovered my health gradually.

Life is so fragile that we should treasure it. We must try to live well and to live with joy, dignity and peace. We learn to share our happiness with others and concern the needs of others.

I'm glad your surgery was successful; a real pity you had to endure such suffering.

You're right that we should treasure life, and I'm glad you're spending time doing something as worthwhile as expressing yourself musically.

With this symphony do you intend to depict this whole struggle?

Perhaps something like this: health -- sickness -- hospital (hell) -- slow recovery -- better....but?

Something like that - a simple programme. Is that what you intend? Perhaps not. Let me know your ideas.

We should think on the structure of the piece, and whether or not it will be linked by motifs. (Perhaps you will have a 'sickness' motif that brings to mind sickness each time we hear it.)

When I was a kid , I adored Brahms very much because he was so passionate at his works. He was the one who affected me most. All parts of his symphony were so complex with unreasonable beauty of relationship. I try hard to find some elements from his symphony no 1.

He composed 4 symphonies in his life. He spent almost 10 years to finish this work. He wanted to create a great work that is as great as Beethoven symphony no 9. I do hope this symphony (angel in hell) will have the same effect.

First of all, I will create a theme to express the feeling of sickness. Then I will create a phase to express the feeling of my first night in the hospital.

The chromatic scale of the theme is very powerful with darkness feeling. In fact, this is the part of the theme from Brahms symphony no 1 .The doubling of third can be used to strengthen the theme and increase the tonal harmony color.

The overall texture of the phase:

1. The string part try to play a storm-like passing note to create the mood of tension.

2. The bass which is on the petal point of C helps to control the tonal system of this phase and stabilize the chord progression.

3. The main theme appears on the woodwind part at the first time.

dark

So am I right in assuming this is the 'sickness' theme?

It's good - very stormy. It suggests to me something more dramatic than just a sickness, but that is maybe your perception of it.

A few technical details I think you should fix before you continue:

It should be in 3/4, not in 6/8. The main pulse is three crotchets, and the dotted crotchets are clearly the syncopations, not the other way round.

It would be good if you could put the instrument names beside their staves (like the piano and harp ones are).

Tenor trombone 1 looks to be playing too high, but I can't tell, without instrument names.

It appears that you have two staves of divisi flutes, doing exactly the same thing. You really want 4 flutes?

Some of the winds look to be playing too high, but again, I can't tell without instrument names.

You want two piccolos?

Other than that, the harmony is good, and the theme is good. There are some major/minor clashes, but I assume you want this.

Please post more, or post your thoughts, or anything.

I think this is a good start from which to continue. Good work. :)

When the symphony begins, the twist on the 3/4 between the stable rhythm petal point and the main theme firstly appears on the woodwind with tutti. That may be what I call

and i will try to delete the excessing chordal parts in woodwind

dark- promise

The chords in the woodwind are fine, but you might just want to use a standard complement of winds.

I don't see what relation this has to 4'33'', or how nervousness is best expressed by silence, but that's up to you.

I like your continuation. Again, I think 3/4 is better in some places than 6/8.

Good work - keep going. :)

4

The main theme will be found in the introduction of the symphony that will be in the form of A-B-A-C. I discover that the first movement of Brahmas symphony no 1 has a similar structure as Beethoven symphony no 9. There will be an introduction to pull the tension up to the main theme that will show all the motive. Then each motive will generate some phases being combined into a section. It is just like the structure of a building. My symphony also has more or less the same structure except the connection with both phases that I think would be the toughest area. It is not easy to do so, but I do hope I can improve myself and sooner or later I can manage to express what I intend to do musically.

i feel scare at this time , if i do no good , forgive me

dark-sorry

The symphony will be in A-B-A-C form? Or the introduction?

I still like what you've done. It could use some touching up, formally, but I will wait and see how you expand it first.

Could you please show the instrument names next time? Thanks.

Anyway, continue writing. What you have so far is good, and you seem to have a good sense of musical balance.

the introduction

dark-answer

So you will present a C theme after the return of the stormy A theme?

4

The main theme will be found in the introduction of the symphony that will be in the form of A-B-A-C. I discover that the first movement of Brahmas symphony no 1 has a similar structure as Beethoven symphony no 9. There will be an introduction to pull the tension up to the main theme that will show all the motive. Then each motive will generate some phases being combined into a section. It is just like the structure of a building. My symphony also has more or less the same structure except the connection with both phases that I think would be the toughest area. It is not easy to do so, but I do hope I can improve myself and sooner or later I can manage to express what I intend to do musically.

5

All themes and motives will be put in the introduction that acts as a showing room. I will try my best to create more new motives and themes in the introduction. They may be the most impressive sound from this section.

The main theme from the introduction will be on the woodwind parts. You may notice that there is something after the chromatic theme (theme of sickness). This is the second theme , but it is not too clear to appear behind the sickness theme . That is the theme used to connect the introduction and the exposition together. It has a character different from the main theme. You may see that the intervals are more leap than the main theme. They are different from the internal. In the next chapter, I shall try to sketch the structure of building the exposition. It may be tough but it must be overcome

The second theme expresses the peaceful moment. It is so called

if it is no good , forgive me daniel

dark-scare

i think i will try to return to A but if i cannot return , then i will find other way out

dark-answer

Dark -- it may be effective only to return to A later on in the symphony. It will be more interesting to have something new now.

Think about it from the perspective of the story.

First you get sick.....then go to the hopsital.....eventually you start to get better, and finally leave. Throwing in a few dramatic complications (maybe difficult surgery?) will allow things not to be entirely linear.

Where does the 'peaceful theme' fit in the story?

Also, I'm not sure which bit is the peaceful theme. Is it the one on the 2nd page?

Anyway, the work is progressing nicely. The transitions are improving, and everything links together quite well. After the last transition (where you slow the scales down in the 'cello and contrabassa) it would be a pity just to go back to A again, so I suggest not doing that.

By the way, there is a section where the harp and piano have scales to play, but are having to balance with a large section of the orchestra. Perhaps you should put the parts in octaves, and perhaps double them with a percussion instrument (maybe xylophone), because the way it is written now, those instruments will have trouble being heard at some points. Perhaps reduce the number of instruments playing chords against them at that point.

Good work -- I like it.

6

The symphony has another main theme. It is a theme for Dr Yuen who is a good doctor being in charge of my surgery when I was in hospital. Since he is a Chinese in nationality, I would like to use some Chinese elements to describe his character. As he is wise and kind, I adore him as I adore Yoda, the master in the star war movie. I do not like the traditional symphony with 4 movements. In my symphony, I try to break down the old rule and add some creative structural skill with reference from symphony poem Liszt.

7

The beginning of the exposition will be a sudden outcome with multi-colors and micro-motives on the harp and the brass in octave. It is so powerful that expresses the tension of the atmosphere. The harmony tension would support the beginning of the exposition and would make it flow internally and smoothly.

The entire sounds combine together to express a dream-like mood. The symphony, The hospital in hell, intend to express all kinds of scare and panic.

Finale 2006 - [introduction and expostion006.pdf

introduction and expostion006.MID

introduction and expostion006.MUS

the connection between introduction and the exposition may be too rush

and the phase may be not good . but i will try to improve if i see the problem in that phase

if i dispointed u , sorry

dark-scare

the most thing that i worry about is , the texture may be to complex for the start from the beginning of the exposition

dark-worry

Hmm I see what you mean about the texture. Yes, perhaps lightening it in a few places would help.

Overall what you have is still good. There's perhaps an awkward transition into the new theme, but otherwise the main problem is only orchestration.

Could you please post a score with instrument names? Otherwise it's just really annoying for me to work out what everything is.

At about bar 13 and following, and bar 40 and following, the piano has some really thick, low chords. These are pretty unwise. You'll still get that percussive effect if you take it up one, two or more octaves. Nothing else has thick chords that low, so it will stick out. If you take it up a bit, it will start reinforcing the strings.

These chordal 'stabs' themselves might be more effective if they were slightly less predictable; i.e., if they did not fall on the beat every time. Maybe think about an occasional extra quaver in one of those bars to keep the listener from thinking he knows what you're going to do. (Maybe slip in a bar of 7/8 once in a while.)

Some of your woodwind writing sounds awfully high. Perhaps it's just an overuse of piccolo.

On pages 6 and 7 you have your bassoons really high. Why not use bassclarinet or mix bassoons and oboes there? (Again, I don't know what instruments you have.)

By the way, nowhere on the whole score do I see any dynamic markings. The whole piece sounds ff to me, the whole way through. To ensure the listener's ears don't get tired, you must have the dynamics changing, where appropriate. For the sickness theme, I suggest maybe mezzo forte or mezzo piano. After all, it's easier to suggest unease with quiet(er) music.

The scales in the basses from bar 62 onwards already suggest a decrescendo. I would definitely put one in there, in the segue to the next theme.

From bar 81 onwards, are you sure that's all playable by the harp? I think it wouldn't hurt to simply the harp writing there: crystalize out the characteristic ingredients, and lose anything non-essential.

Why is the viola higher than the 2nd violin?

I think there's too much doubling at the unison here in the winds.

How about a slower tempo here, for this sickness theme? Poco meno mosso perhaps? I think it would help the piece not to feel monotonous, as the mood of this theme is so similar to what has gone before.

Just some suggestions. Don't feel you have to agree with me.

dark-correction

Finale 2006 - [introduction and expostion010.pdf

it also correct the low chords At about bar 13 and following, and bar 40 and following

dark-correction

Finale 2006 - [introduction and expostion010a.pdf

introduction and expostion010.MID

Some of your woodwind writing sounds awfully high. Perhaps it's just an overuse of piccolo.

dark-solved this problem