What is perfect pitch?

We all know what perfect pitch is but suppose I can use my memory to determine what a note is. Is that perfect pitch? Or is it the same as what people tend to think as perfect pitch?

e.g., a piece I tend to perform a lot I hear in the proper key in my head. I know, say, that the first note starts on E. So I obviously can use that note. In fact I know all that notes in the melody so I can use them to compare notes... but is that perfect pitch? or is that just aural memory comparison?

I've heard of people that have perfect pitch being able to say the "exact" frequency of something even without practice but this seems doubtful. (as if the brain is somehow counting the periods... ) It would be like me knowing the thing I know above but memorizing the frequencies to the notes and say "Hey, thats 660hz when it's really just an E that I remembered and remembered that in concert pitch E = 660hz).

In any case this is just something recent that I have realized and basically I just hear what I have played many times in the right key in my head. (I think... it tends to be right) I do not think my "brain" transposes tunes or anything when I hear them... it hears them as I heard them. Although I haven't tested it enough to see if I'm off a semitone or two.

Just curious as to if this is what is considered perfect pitch.

Wiki sorta implies that somehow the brain just "knows" but also says some stuff that basically agree's with what I'm experiences(memory and label).

One think I do have trouble with is the octave. When I "sing" it in my head I end up doing it an octave lower and it's hard for me to get it an octave higher... for some reason my brain keeps on wanting to "sing" it in my vocal range. I guess this is natural though?

It's definitely a first stage of perfect pitch. If you have this memory so strengthened, that at any time (i.e. not just when you've recently played one piece a lot) you can easily determine any pitch you hear by such a comparisation, then it's perfect pitch. Some people might argue it's only then truly perfect pitch when you hear every pitch immediately and don't have to make a mental comparisation with a reference tone in your mind, but ultimately that doesn't matter, since it's all just processes in your mind and this step is mostly a matter of training.

As for remembering exact frequencies: Well, it depends on what you work with usually. A tone engineer who works with filters, equalizers etc. all day long may very well develop an exact knowledge of where which frequency is, rather than notes. The same goes for someone who composes computer music. And some tones are much easier to identify by frequency: For example if you know the frequency of the lowest note you can hear, you can often guess the frequency of extremely low sounds approximately. Or maybe you know a specific very high sound, like the sound your TV makes, and know that it's for example 15kHz. Then when you hear a similar noise, you won't think "that's a G", but "that's about 15kHz". Also, you may get a more detailed knowledge of frequencies if you work frequently in different tunings, or even if you're very used to a specific tuning. If you're used to A 442 Hz and hear a 660 Hz tone, you don't only hear that it's an E, but that it's "too low" (since in that tuning it should be 663 Hz) and possibly you can even hear how much too low it is. Some people just work more with frequencies than others, that's all. It has probably nothing to do with the way the brain actually memorizes the pitches. (Even though technically it's of course much more "memorizing a frequency" than "memorizing a pitch". Your ear has no device for getting tone names, it can just determine frequencies. It's your brain that translates these frequencies into the names of pitches it has learned. The question is now merely whether your memorisation happens before, or after this conversion - which is probably different from person to person.)

Well yes and no.

Perfect pitch is not about memory. It is about recognizing certain subtle variations between tones.

It has been shown that most people will naturally sing a song they know within a tone of where it actually belongs. Musicians are more accurate, and the better you know the piece, the more chance you have of getting the pitch correct.

We all know what perfect pitch is but suppose I can use my memory to determine what a note is. Is that perfect pitch? Or is it the same as what people tend to think as perfect pitch?

or is that just aural memory comparison?

It is interesting you should ask because it is infact both perfect pitch and aural memory.

I believe that all people who aren't tone deaf can learn perfect pitch. But it takes time. Quite a lot.

There is a method I'm familiar with called "Pitch Paths" and I chat with the author whom is a professional piano player (nice guy by the way).

Basically it takes advantage of how we naturally recall the pitch of a melody we are familiar with. It in fact uses a series of short melodies which, when you hear the tone the melody starts on, it will trigger the melody in your head. (In the begging)

Someone plays a 'C' and you hear or are reminded of the first couple of bars of Mozart's piano sonata in C Major start to play (C E G B C D C). So you know it is a C

With time, the actual melody drops away as you become more familiar with the actual 'colour' of the note. The melodies serve at first as a way to help your brain describe what its hearing.

I've heard of people that have perfect pitch being able to say the "exact" frequency of something even without practice but this seems doubtful. (as if the brain is somehow counting the periods... ) It would be like me knowing the thing I know above but memorizing the frequencies to the notes and say "Hey, thats 660hz when it's really just an E that I remembered and remembered that in concert pitch E = 660hz).

Yeah the exact frequency thing is B.S. The human ear can't hear or identify hertz.

Perfect pitch involves knowing a note because it has a unique characteristic. Once you learn the characteristic of the note, you can gradually become very discerning regarding whether other notes are played sharp or flat because they will sound a little different to the C you know.

Perfect pitch surely isn't perfect. After all, what if someone's instrument was tuned to A = 430 hz when they developed the skill? Every A440 would sound (likely) brighter.

Just curious as to if this is what is considered perfect pitch.

Wiki sorta implies that somehow the brain just "knows" but also says some stuff that basically agree's with what I'm experiences(memory and label).

It also says it can't be developed after a certain age and I know that is incorrect also.

One think I do have trouble with is the octave. When I "sing" it in my head I end up doing it an octave lower and it's hard for me to get it an octave higher... for some reason my brain keeps on wanting to "sing" it in my vocal range. I guess this is natural though?

What is your instrument? I'd try imagining the sound as the actual instrument rather than singing in your head. You wont be limited to your vocal range this way.

From what you've told me I'd say you should check out the Pitch Paths method Pitch Paths as you will likely make quick progress.

It is important that I mention here that at this point, the method is incomplete.

It will allow you to Identify individual notes in a single octave. The method, as it stands, falls apart when you add harmony etc.

However, the Author of the book/cd has developed his perfect pitch completely and will be releasing the second volume which deals with making the perfect pitch useful when listening to music. I emailed him last week and he told me that he'd be finished in about a month. (A friend borrowed his microphones so he can't record the audio exercises until he gets them back).

However, this will allow you some time to develop it if you want.

Check out the site. There is more info on there. (And it is a LOT cheaper than the Burge method)

Chris

Lol that total sounded like a big promotion but let me assure you I don't make commission or anything!

Also, if you want more info on perfect pitch, check out Research concerning perfect pitch

There is endless information on that site.

Chris

You brought up very good points, in particular relating to how perfect pitch can be learned. But some things you said made absolutely no sense to me.

Perfect pitch is not about memory. It is about recognizing certain subtle variations between tones.

Recknognizing subtle variations between tones? You mean the ability to perceive small differences in pitch or timbre? I might call that a "good ear", but what does it have to do with perfect pitch? Well, I see where you are coming from: From your post I gather that you think every note has a distinct "colour" and that perfect pitch means reckognizing that "colour". Are you saying that there's something that fundamentally distinguishes a "G" from an "A", apart from their frequencies? Can you base this claim on anything?

On one specific instrument different tones will have a slightly different timbre of course, due to resonances, but they depend entirely on the instrument and are in no way universal attributes of those tones.

Further you go on to say:

Yeah the exact frequency thing is B.S. The human ear can't hear or identify hertz.

Perfect pitch involves knowing a note because it has a unique characteristic. Once you learn the characteristic of the note, you can gradually become very discerning regarding whether other notes are played sharp or flat because they will sound a little different to the C you know.

Huh? Since when does the hear musical notes and not frequencies? Of course it "identifies hertz", it just doesn't represent itself as a number in your brain. Notes are just a rather arbitrary grid we apply on these frequencies that is entirely culturally dependant. What makes you think what we call notes, i.e. a human-created set of 12 names for specific frequencies and their octave transpositions, is something so special?

Maybe I'm only confused and didn't get your point. But I'd love to hear a more detailed acoustical or biological explanation of these "note characteristics" that are different for every note.

Damn, other people got to this thread before me..

I was going to define "perfect pitch" as "getting the bagpipes into the very middle of the bonfire".

Or getting an accordion in a dumpster without hitting the back

Even computers do not have exactly perfect pitch. There is always a rounding error somewhere.

I was recently on frostcloud where a guy claimed to have calculated the smallest wavelength possible using Planck's constant and quantum theory. (As I go look for the thread it has vannished!)

If his calculations were correct, all wavelengths would have to be multiples of this very small number, which still would have a rounding error.

So the human mind which hears music as it exists, technically has the potential to have perfect pitch. Its like trying to ask, 'what is PI exactly?' or 'can anyone draw a perfect circle?' Computers use pixels, for eg, so it is always an approximation of a circle. People use real resolution by contrast.

I do not believe anyone is tone deaf, they just had a bad experience trying to play music as a youth and now consider themselves tone deaf. It saves them further embarrassment. In psychology we call this 'learned helplessness'.

Training is vital, but the will to learn is even more important.

Plato's forms is another aspect of this, where the real world is an approximation of the ideal world where pi can be calculated exactly.

Perhaps when you hear music in your dreams, then this might be the closest we can get to perfect pitch.

The real world is all a matter of degree of accuracy. Perfect timing is the same. Perfect relevance to the meaning in your song is the same. A perfect venue is the same.

How about a perfect audience?

*cough* smallest wavelength possible = a gamma ray of about 100 fm.

here is another point.

the math behind the 12 tones is actually not as cut and dried as it is considered to be.

there are two ways of calculating the length of the distance between tones, and the result is that we use an average of the two.

thus if you follow the octaves (i) up and up, and (ii) down and down, the more octaves you move away from the center, the less in tune (i) is with (ii)

i can't off hand remember all the details as it was some time ago when i studied the philosophy of music, (within the context of philosophy, not music) but i clearly remember how it fascinated me that music theory is just a little bit fuzzy when it comes to calculating it all PERFECTLY.

however if you only move a handful of octaves, the rounding error is so small, that it is just not noticable; except to the mathematician!

so perfect pitch is actually an illusion.

just as perfect pi cannot be calculated.

*cough* smallest wavelength possible = a gamma ray of about 100 fm.

a source for this quote would be nice?

my searches for the shortest wavelength find so many different answers, i'm not sure who is correct. however, the logic is the same regardless.

(i recommend gargling with salt water for the cough)

interesting... i'm gonna start learning to figure out what pitches i'm hearing from the radio :)

Of course no one's going to have "perfect" pitch.

But there are those who have "really, really, really good" pitch. You know, where they can remember and call upon any note from some standard set of tones (like, say, the Western 12 tones) :rolleyes:? That's "perfect pitch". When you can do that, you have perfect pitch. It is possible to learn this power...

But....not from a Jedi...

Somthing I wish I had.

That was a useless reply. sorry.

Couldn't help mysepf >.<