16th Century Counterpoint - 2 Voices, 1st Species Primer

Hope I'm not too late to the game!

I wasn't sure about the "ascending 6ths" rule, whether it applied only to consecutives, so I've done two versions of the exercise!

Also, I'm not sure if I completely understood rule 6, about parts skipping in the same direction! Is it okay, in version 2, that my soprano has a couple of jumps that exceed a perfect 4th if my bass is moving by step in the same direction? I'm pretty sure it only applies when both parts skip in the one direction, because it kinda takes away from their unity, but I thought I'd ask just to be 100% certain!

Version 1

Version 2

Wayne - good job the counterpoint is fine.

About the skips - you cannot have two skips exceeding more than a whole step in the same direction. So two consecutive thirds or greater in the same direction is not allowed.

basically ascending 6ths are favored over descending 6th in 16th century counterpoint (partially as singing descsnding 6ths are harder to do than ascending).

Melodically - the b to c motion several bars before the final cadence is not the best solution though OK in the specie. In Version 2 the leap up to a 5th then a whole step and then a 6th is strange. Even though the rules do not forbid it outright the movement to the tonic - C after a leap from E to B gives a sense of repose. To move up another 6th is really going outside the 16th century style. But at this stage don't get too hung up on this.

Melodically - the b to c motion several bars before the final cadence is not the best solution though OK in the specie.

I was thinking of the leading tone moving to the tonic rule!

In Version 2 the leap up to a 5th then a whole step and then a 6th is strange.

This was my version I did under the impression that all 6ths must move upwards!

Wayne - the move to B-C is not bad at all in itself. Sorry for not being clearer - rather you create a strong pull to the tonic midway in the piece thereby making the melody a bit bland because you start with C go to C in middle and then end on C. The result is a melody that lacks some motion.

Well the Major and minor 6th is allowable moving upwards so yes you are correct. The leap to a fifth e-b then to a sixth c - a, is a bit strange because separating the two upward leaps of a P5 and m6 with a m2 violates one important rule of melodic writing in this style - when going up start from larger to intervals - going down it is the reverse. Also in this style, if you want to have two large leaps it is best to separate them by a smaller leap in the opposite direction - say UP P5, DOWN m3, UP m6.

I am getting into the melodic writing style of 16th century counterpoint which is discussed as an intro thread to 3rd species I posted aa few weeks ago. Check it out. But this particular example is quite uncommon in both 16th and 18th century counterpoint.

Wayne - good job the counterpoint is fine.

About the skips - you cannot have two skips exceeding more than a whole step in the same direction. So two consecutive thirds or greater in the same direction is not allowed..

Are you not allowed to outline a triad in particular instances? Because from what I remember....

Are you not allowed to outline a triad in particular instances? Because from what I remember....

First species specifically maybe...

Wayne - the move to B-C is not bad at all in itself. Sorry for not being clearer - rather you create a strong pull to the tonic midway in the piece thereby making the melody a bit bland because you start with C go to C in middle and then end on C. The result is a melody that lacks some motion.

Well the Major and minor 6th is allowable moving upwards so yes you are correct. The leap to a fifth e-b then to a sixth c - a, is a bit strange because separating the two upward leaps of a P5 and m6 with a m2 violates one important rule of melodic writing in this style - when going up start from larger to intervals - going down it is the reverse. Also in this style, if you want to have two large leaps it is best to separate them by a smaller leap in the opposite direction - say UP P5, DOWN m3, UP m6.

I am getting into the melodic writing style of 16th century counterpoint which is discussed as an intro thread to 3rd species I posted aa few weeks ago. Check it out. But this particular example is quite uncommon in both 16th and 18th century counterpoint.

Oh right, I see! I sometimes find it hard to follow the rules while staying melodically coherent! Will I go back and do them again; or do the second exercise, or do the 2nd species at this point?

Corbin - yes you can outline a triad - what Wayne did E-B-C-A - a pentatonic outline - is not found in 16th or 18th century styles.

In sum you can have two successive skips which could outline a triad. Now here is where we get nitpicky - triadic outlines become more common in 18th century counterpoint - less common in 16th. So in 16th century for 2 measures of 4/4 with half note values you will more likely find a leap of a 4th followed by a 3rd and then a second upward finally followed by a half step downward. Try this in aeolian on A. Although you could say the first three notes spell a 2nd inversion A minor chord the movement to B on the 4th half note weakens the sense of this chord being outlined. In 18th century you will find more instances of downward motion to 3rd - spelling out in 2 measures a 2nd inversion A minor chord. Now, I am not saying this is foreign to 16th century counterpoint, it is just much less common.

I strongly advise reading the Jeppesen book on his overview on these differences AND compare this cantus firmus with Fux's for greater understanding.

Also, another help is to compare short motets by Victoria, Monteverdi, Schutz, Buxtehude or Bach, Pergolesi.

Corbin - yes you can outline a triad - what Wayne did E-B-C-A - a pentatonic outline - is not found in 16th or 18th century styles.

Well I knew he was wrong on that... *skip-skip-skip-skip-skip*

I was just keeping your epic knowledge on the right path.

I have a question, is it wrong for one voice to outline the diminshed triad F - D - B?

Well, no but you have only a few options - F up to D down to B; B up to D down to F; B down to D up to F. The movement from F - B in either direction is disallowed in this style and as you cannot have two consecutive skips in the same direction, so you are left with these choices.

Alright I hope I'm not horribly out of place for doing this.

I tried to make something that would enjoy listening to, something pleasant yet still (somewhat) endearing. Can't wait to see what I can do to improve. :)

16thCenturyCounterpoint_1stSpeciesPrimer.mid

16thCenturyCounterpoint_1stSpeciesPrimer_page.pdf

This was my version I did under the impression that all 6ths must move upwards!

Just to add to what CO already said:

You have to remember... OF COURSE there are all of these rules for counterpoints and that this is just an excercise. This is easy to get caught up in. You MUST remembre that any theory or technique in composition is just a tool to achieve something you have in mind BEFORE writing it down (I mean this isn't always true... and we write things intuitively... but ideas come before putting them down on the page... not finished products... whole different topic though).

Counterpoint is, without any context of a piece, a tool toward the modification of musical texture (you know, the defined kind), a harmonic device, and a melodic device all-in-one. SoOoOoOo... why utilize it? What's the purpose? What should you start with (rather than predetermined cantus firmus) to write a line in counterpoint to another line? All of these questions are going to make the "rules" easier to understand. They will make the hammer-of-counterpoint actually able to pound nails into a piece of wood, rather than just sit there and have the ability to pound nails. Having the pretty hammer with user who doesn't even know where the nails are or how to even buy them... well that's just silly.

K.. I'm done hijacking.

Corax - You did fine - counterpoint is fine. Only criticism - you use solely 6ths and 3rds except for the initial and final interval which makes it a little bland. Try this again using a different cantus firmus keeping in mind to use as many intervals as allowed (so throw in once in awhile an octave or 5th!)

Okay thanks composerorganist... I tried a new cantus firmus for the first exercise and labeled the intervals now. I also did the second exercise you mentioned in this thread.

Counterpoint_1stSpeciesPrimer2.pdf

Counterpoint_1stSpeciesPrimer2.mid

Counterpoint_1stSpeciesOppositePrimer.pdf

Counterpoint_1stSpeciesOppositePrimer.mid

Overall excellent job. Your second exercise is better than the first as your melody is more idiomatic to the 16th century style. In your first example, from mm 7 to the end, the movement upward with most ly leaps forms a melodic lien that is foreign to 16th century style. For example, after measure 9 the ascent would either continue with smaller steps or a leap downward and either stepwise motion or a leap upward.

At this point, this is not a big deal but in the ensuing species it will be.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to look through these. :)

Yeah, the melody in the first exercise wasn't the greatest. You compared it to the melody in the second one of this post (#3) though, which I don't understand because that was the melody you had posted and had us write a bass line for, haha. In any case, there was a wrong note in the MIDI file and I updated that.

In any case, I wonder if I'm "ready" to go on to the other species.

Counterpoint_1stSpeciesOppositePrimer.pdf

Counterpoint_1stSpeciesOppositePrimer.mid

You are ready to try 2nd species. And yes pardon the error on my part. This thread has gotten so large I cannot keep track on the melodies I gave.

It's my first ever counterpoint attempt so I don't know if I followed all the rules properly. I tried though:) Hopefully I will get better as I go along with the the next exercises.

Thanks in advance if you manage to have a look at it

2009-10-14 First Species Counterpoint.pdf

2009-10-14 First Species Counterpoint.mid

Good flow of melody and overall almost perfect. Check the labels of your intervals there is an error which results in incorrect counterpoint.

Thank you for having a look at the counterpoint. I am happy to hear it's not that bad:) and I will post the next one soon.

At the moment I can't find the mislabeled interval however... It's probably one of these stupid mistakes when you look at it and just can't see. As far as I can see, the progression is:

p8[CC], p5[EB], maj3[FA], maj6[GE], min3[EG], min6[AF], p8[GG], min6[EC], maj6[FD], p8[EE], maj6[DB], p8[CC]

And the intervals seem OK, or do they?

I think I need to get some sleep and look at it again in the morning:)

Ok, Heres my attempt...

The double bass is a bit too loud as I forgot to turn it down.

ctpex1.mp4

ctpex1.mp4

cptex1.pdf

NeeHoo,

Measures 4 and 5: The leap of a 5th followed by a leap of a 3rd in the same direction (which sums up in a 7th) is not really good and has more arpeggiated character than it should. This motion is somewhat disturbing for the melodic flow. I would suggest to fill the leap of a 5th by moving down a step after it, which would also open new possibilities for your line.

NeeHoo,

Measures 4 and 5: The leap of a 5th followed by a leap of a 3rd in the same direction (which sums up in a 7th) is not really good and has more arpeggiated character than it should. This motion is somewhat disturbing for the melodic flow. I would suggest to fill the leap of a 5th by moving down a step after it, which would also open new possibilities for your line.

Thank you Kamen I will revise it and post the results :)

NeeHo -

My apologies - you are correct your intervals are fine and therefore the counterpoint is. I went solely by the score.

As for Kamen's comment - he is correct. Thanks Kamen.

Now an explanation - as I am usually more fastidious about checking work. Just started a new full time day job that is turning out to be quite busy. I looked over your counterpoint Neeho when i was a bit tired. So sorry about that.

In general, you have to be careful with consecutive skips - outlining a dissonance is not good even if it seems to follow the rules. So for 16th century counterpoint, if you skip up a P5 the only workable skip in the same direction following it would be a M2 or m2. You have more possibilities if you reverse direction either stepwise or with a skip. But you have to be careful your melody does not end up sounding like you are demarcating a triad. So G up to D down to B up to G and down to a D (so up a P5, down m3, up a M6, down a P4) would be following the rules but melodically quite uncommon for the 16th century style because of the melody's strong triadic nature. Knowing this helps you appreciate the revolutions in melodic writing Hadyn and later to a greater degree Mozart achieved.

Finally in the original post I did not disallow consecutive skips - because I geared it to newcomers to grasp the very basics of correct 16th century counterpoint.

A suggestion to those doing species counterpoint here, is that you should try to not write the interval in numbers in your exercises. You have to develop your reading to analyze these things on the spot, and also the numbers may give it too much of a "math" spin, when in reality even if it's an exercise the idea is that it has to be musical or creative in some way or another.