The thread to end all "Is X relevant?" threads. Ever.

[SSC]

Enough is enough. I'm making a NEW thread because this needs to stand on it's own as a single reply to every single ignorantly-created thread which fails to acknowledge something as basic as the state of modern music either because of ignorance, taste or whatever agenda they may be trying to further.

I will be VERY brief about this:

ALL TECHNIQUES ARE RELEVANT.

ALL STYLES ARE RELEVANT.

NO IDIOM, TECHNIQUE OR STYLISTIC EVER DIES, IT ONLY BECOMES LESS POPULAR.

TRENDS ARE NO INDICATION OF THE INTRINSIC ARTISTIC VALUE OF ANYTHING WHATSOEVER.

ALL IS POSSIBLE.

This is a reply all THREE (or more!?) threads about this bullshit, and it should stand as the only possible reply to the "relevancy" "is there place for" or whatever other wording which places the importance of X technique in any particular timeframe. This question should be understood to be ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT.

That something is more or less popular DOES NOT mean under any circumstances that you're censored from being able to do it and furthermore it does not imply that is less or more "valuable," "relevant" or any other such characteristics. Any stylistic conception, artistic opinion or technique is only as relevant as the composer finds it relevant, PERIOD. That's the simple, objective, truth.

If you want to write Bach fugues your entire life, FINE!

If you want to write Music Concrete your entire life, FINE!

If you want to write Palestrina-style chorales your entire life, FINE!

If you want to copy other composers your entire life, FINE!

If you want to write tonal music your entire life, FINE!

If you want to write whatever it is you want to write, FINE!

This is a non-argument; it's a non-question.

Because this no problem at all and the answer is a simple "Yes, you can do whatever you want," the deal with education, the academic world, etc must be treated entirely different. I have never met anyone who holds a respectable position in the academic institutions either here in Europe or South America that did not acknowledge this; they are well aware that what is taught as "composition" is very difficult to classify as anything goes. A fundamental question is whether or not the avant-garde proper even exists anymore, or if it's even worthwhile bothering with such labels when everything is just as likely and probable as anything else. It seems the postmodern-label has been used to mean just about anything and obviously pluralism and polystylism are very well known and accepted phenomena. It renders even whatever we can call "modern" irrelevant, since modern itself can only be used as a label for a historical period or trend (everything produced today is modern if we use the other meaning of "modern.")

With absolute freedom, boundaries must be found elsewhere than in the objective act of composing. However, in the way to the 21st century, we've seen everything from multi-media to audience interaction to just about everything that people can think of to mix music change the way it's perceived. Manipulating more parameters in compositions (such as room, acoustics, etc) has been done and is still done. Absolute freedom simply destroys any labels, categorizations and boundaries by the very virtue of the artistic freedom it grants.

If there's anything to discuss whether or not the concept of "absolute freedom" is understood, and if the study and practice of composition should prepare people to be able to deal with such unimaginable vastness that is the modern artistic world.

Lying about, hiding or otherwise ignoring the actual state of modern art does nobody any favors and the sooner everyone understands what the actual problems we're facing today as artists are, the better off we'll be and the less senseless discussions there'll be.

So, enough is enough.

---

For further reading, I've compiled a series of posts made by people who I think are actually people who understand the topic and can say meaningful things on it:

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/relevancy-tonal-compositions-21st-century-16873-6.html#post257338

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/relevancy-tonal-compositions-21st-century-16873-6.html#post257380

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/relevancy-tonal-compositions-21st-century-16873-10.html#post257998

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/extract-translantion-theo-brandm-llers-article-composition-13134.html#post258011

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/musics-limits-15919.html#post242014

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/musics-limits-15919-2.html#post242053

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/musics-limits-15919-3.html#post242092

http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/article-put-rest-discussions-tonality-its-condition-17900.html#post271090

And there's a lot more stuff I could grab, but I think for now that's good enough. I really should take the time to make a more comprehensive archive of things which are worthwhile repeating and maybe have it be a god-damn sticky here as to avoid having anyone repeat them over and over and over.

PS: Seems the mess goes on and on and on...

[Ananth Balijepalli]

*applaud*

[Guest QcCowboy]

Yes, but I disagree completely that using all caps and large font is necessarily indicatative of ANY of this... and I'm smarter than you because I said so, and you're a big poopyhead.

[robinjessome]

ALL TECHNIQUES ARE RELEVANT.

ALL STYLES ARE RELEVANT.

NO IDIOM, TECHNIQUE OR STYLISTIC EVER DIES, IT ONLY BECOMES LESS POPULAR.

TRENDS ARE NO INDICATION OF THE INTRINSIC ARTISTIC VALUE OF ANYTHING WHATSOEVER.

ALL IS POSSIBLE.

Yah, but...how does one define "technique"? Where does one draw the line between "idiom" and "style". Without first outlining such basic parameters, we cannot begin to intelligently discuss the relative and inherent artistic value of the aforementioned musics. What IS "value"?

[SSC]

Yah, but...how does one define "technique"? Where does one draw the line between "idiom" and "style". Without first outlining such basic parameters, we cannot begin to intelligently discuss the relative and inherent artistic value of the aforementioned musics. What IS "value"?

That's exactly the point. I didn't define them because nobody who bothers to post about this crap lately defines it, and if I start defining it then it'll be "oh but is that really the case" and I want to avoid precisely that.

This isn't so much about intelligent discussion, it's about stopping the bullshit. I already said the argument is irrelevant and the main reason is because "value" and "technique" and whatever you want are all subjective things, you can define them to fit your argument, so why bother?

[Dan Gilbert]

Is SSC relevant?

[Pieter Smal]

I am dumbfound! ? What on earth are you trying to say? Is this modern? Is this a statement?

Grace Transcend!

[Guest QcCowboy]

I have only this to say:

is relevancy still relevant?

are techniques really technical?

are systems really systematic?

ALL of the above are obviously FAR more complex issues than ANYTHING any of you could come up with, and I will defend my right to say that you are all wrong, no matter what you actually think, until the day I die.

[SSC]

I have only this to say:

is relevancy still relevant?

are techniques really technical?

are systems really systematic?

ALL of the above are obviously FAR more complex issues than ANYTHING any of you could come up with, and I will defend my right to say that you are all wrong, no matter what you actually think, until the day I die.

XD

[MatthewSchwartz]

Maybe so, SSC, but internet forums are themselves not relevant.

[Salemosophy]

ALL TECHNIQUES ARE RELEVANT.

Disagree.

ALL STYLES ARE RELEVANT.

Agree.

NO IDIOM, TECHNIQUE OR STYLISTIC EVER DIES, IT ONLY BECOMES LESS POPULAR.

Disagree.

TRENDS ARE NO INDICATION OF THE INTRINSIC ARTISTIC VALUE OF ANYTHING WHATSOEVER.

Agree.

ALL IS POSSIBLE.

Agree.

[Nirvana69]

I look forward to in a few weeks when some noob comes on here and posts another "atonal music lulz" thread without even searching to find if a thread like it already exists. As well-intentioned as this thread might be, it's naive to think this will "stop the bullshit". It won't. As long as people have internet access, there will be bullshit aplenty. Though I do agree with everything SSC said.

[SSC]

I look forward to in a few weeks when some noob comes on here and posts another "atonal music lulz" thread without even searching to find if a thread like it already exists. As well-intentioned as this thread might be, it's naive to think this will "stop the bullshit". It won't. As long as people have internet access, there will be bullshit aplenty. Though I do agree with everything SSC said.

Right! But for precisely that reason I made this, so I can reply with this thread rather than waste any time typing. I hope it helps others in the same way too!

[robinjessome]

I didn't define them because nobody who bothers to post about this crap lately defines it, and if I start defining it then it'll be "oh but is that really the case" and I want to avoid precisely that.

;) I know....

:whistling:

---------------

Disagree.Agree.Disagree.Agree.Agree.

Shhh. No one's listening to you anymore.

[Nightscape]

I think people just love to take sides and bicker. I think we all get a rush when we take an extreme position and then have to defend it - this probably isn't unique to composition forums and we don't HAVE to participate in these discussions!

[SSC]

I think people just love to take sides and bicker. I think we all get a rush when we take an extreme position and then have to defend it - this probably isn't unique to composition forums and we don't HAVE to participate in these discussions!

Yeah cuz I love the rush I get when I try to defend my extreme positions of "get a balanced education!" or "learn about all types of music!" or "do whatever you want!"

I'm so Xtreme :/

[robinjessome]

...we don't HAVE to participate in these discussions!

HAHA...YES we do! How else can we impose our opinions whilst denying others the right to have opinions!

Your so dum dont u no how internet werkz?!

[Nightscape]

Yeah cuz I love the rush I get when I try to defend my extreme positions of "get a balanced education!" or "learn about all types of music!" or "do whatever you want!"

I'm so Xtreme :/

well, no offense, but you DO love to bicker, from what I have seen on these forums - even if you are well-intentioned!

[SSC]

well, no offense, but you DO love to bicker, from what I have seen on these forums - even if you are well-intentioned!

Well don't these things seem worth defending to you, EVEN on an interwubs forum?

[Nightscape]

Well, I have to confess that I'm not sure what we are defending. I think a certain someone is just trying to make something out of nothing!

[Old Composer]

I kind of agree with Nightscape, at least in what I believe (s)he is saying;

There's no need to get upset, or to respond in any way that makes you appear condescending. Yeah, SSC, maybe your views are more evolved than some people. I highly doubt you were born with a completely objective view of everything, always. There was some growth there, and others are going to grow as well. Since we all grow and evolve our viewpoints at different times, it makes sense (to me) to try to be understanding about conflicting viewpoints, rather than condescend others for starting conversations.

I've noticed this a lot here lately - people tend to jump and attack those with opposing viewpoints. Regardless of how ridiculous you think someone's remark is, remember that this is coming from their worldview, and any response of yours is coming from your worldview, and that it's highly unlikely that your worldviews are near the same.

It just seems to me that the people who promote concepts like "objectivity" are the same who belittle those who don't embrace the same viewpoint.

I would generally agree that it is better to approach such discussions from an objective standpoint, and refrain from making statements that are based on personal bias. But that's me. I'm not everyone else on this forum, and I try to remember that instead of belittling everyone. Every now and then is fine, I think, if it's done the right way. But lately it seems that the forums are like this:

Poster 1: "This is what I think about this"

Poster 2: "You're wrong and I can't believe you even fxing typed that, lulz, nice trolling"

I don't know. I think I would just like to see more understanding and less bickering. Ultimately, we're all on the path to enlightenment, and part of reaching enlightenment is assimilating everything that happens into your single worldview. Even if it's something you disagree with. Additionally, I think the worst thing that could possibly happen at a forum like this is censorship. There are many opportunities for YOUNG composers to see how to approach composition, as well as approach differing view points. It would seem that some of the OLDER composers could remember this better.

[Salemosophy]

I kind of agree with Nightscape, at least in what I believe (s)he is saying;

There's no need to get upset, or to respond in any way that makes you appear condescending. Yeah, SSC, maybe your views are more evolved than some people. I highly doubt you were born with a completely objective view of everything, always. There was some growth there, and others are going to grow as well. Since we all grow and evolve our viewpoints at different times, it makes sense (to me) to try to be understanding about conflicting viewpoints, rather than condescend others for starting conversations.

I've noticed this a lot here lately - people tend to jump and attack those with opposing viewpoints. Regardless of how ridiculous you think someone's remark is, remember that this is coming from their worldview, and any response of yours is coming from your worldview, and that it's highly unlikely that your worldviews are near the same.

It just seems to me that the people who promote concepts like "objectivity" are the same who belittle those who don't embrace the same viewpoint.

I would generally agree that it is better to approach such discussions from an objective standpoint, and refrain from making statements that are based on personal bias. But that's me. I'm not everyone else on this forum, and I try to remember that instead of belittling everyone. Every now and then is fine, I think, if it's done the right way. But lately it seems that the forums are like this:

Poster 1: "This is what I think about this"

Poster 2: "You're wrong and I can't believe you even fxing typed that, lulz, nice trolling"

I don't know. I think I would just like to see more understanding and less bickering. Ultimately, we're all on the path to enlightenment, and part of reaching enlightenment is assimilating everything that happens into your single worldview. Even if it's something you disagree with. Additionally, I think the worst thing that could possibly happen at a forum like this is censorship. There are many opportunities for YOUNG composers to see how to approach composition, as well as approach differing view points. It would seem that some of the OLDER composers could remember this better.

Wow, Jamie. By far the best post I've ever seen on this forum...

... ever.

Well-said.

[Voce]

I kind of agree with Nightscape, at least in what I believe (s)he is saying;

There's no need to get upset, or to respond in any way that makes you appear condescending. Yeah, SSC, maybe your views are more evolved than some people. I highly doubt you were born with a completely objective view of everything, always. There was some growth there, and others are going to grow as well. Since we all grow and evolve our viewpoints at different times, it makes sense (to me) to try to be understanding about conflicting viewpoints, rather than condescend others for starting conversations.

I've noticed this a lot here lately - people tend to jump and attack those with opposing viewpoints. Regardless of how ridiculous you think someone's remark is, remember that this is coming from their worldview, and any response of yours is coming from your worldview, and that it's highly unlikely that your worldviews are near the same.

It just seems to me that the people who promote concepts like "objectivity" are the same who belittle those who don't embrace the same viewpoint.

I would generally agree that it is better to approach such discussions from an objective standpoint, and refrain from making statements that are based on personal bias. But that's me. I'm not everyone else on this forum, and I try to remember that instead of belittling everyone. Every now and then is fine, I think, if it's done the right way. But lately it seems that the forums are like this:

Poster 1: "This is what I think about this"

Poster 2: "You're wrong and I can't believe you even fxing typed that, lulz, nice trolling"

I don't know. I think I would just like to see more understanding and less bickering. Ultimately, we're all on the path to enlightenment, and part of reaching enlightenment is assimilating everything that happens into your single worldview. Even if it's something you disagree with. Additionally, I think the worst thing that could possibly happen at a forum like this is censorship. There are many opportunities for YOUNG composers to see how to approach composition, as well as approach differing view points. It would seem that some of the OLDER composers could remember this better.

You're wrong and I can't believe you even fxing typed that, lulz, nice trolling

[SSC]

Well, as much as I'd like to simply shut people up I do take my time to make it perfectly clear why their opinions are unfit, if that's the case. There's been plenty of times where it did not come to arguments or any of that, but when it DOES I can safely say that on my side I did what I could to salvage it.

But I don't have a lot of patience, y'see, and if things degenerate quickly because people's arguments are not well put together, I don't really care. It's anyone's fault but theirs that they're discussing something in an open forum and their arguments are weak.

Condescending? Call it whatever you want, I'll do whatever I think is appropriate and that's about it.

[Salemosophy]

Well, as much as I'd like to simply shut people up I do take my time to make it perfectly clear why their opinions are unfit, if that's the case. There's been plenty of times where it did not come to arguments or any of that, but when it DOES I can safely say that on my side I did what I could to salvage it.

In your defense, you do try to salvage the argument. But not in your defense, you do everything to bring the argument to the point where it needs salvaging.

But I don't have a lot of patience, y'see, and if things degenerate quickly because people's arguments are not well put together, I don't really care. It's anyone's fault but theirs that they're discussing something in an open forum and their arguments are weak.

Condescending? Call it whatever you want, I'll do whatever I think is appropriate and that's about it.

So, in other words... Jamie, you're wrong. SSC is always right. People here should learn their place.